Budget 2017:Childcare subsidy

DeadlyByDesign

Like a lot of you I have been glued to the TV for the news of the subsidy as we are expecting our first child in may. We have been dreading the costs of childcare as my wife wants to go back to work.

As I am understanding from todays news- ALL families will be entitled tot his? Or is it just low income families. My wife and I would very much be in the middle bracket of income (80k a year between 2 of us) so i am hoping that this does not exclude us?

Quoting direct here;
"According to the Irish Times, all families will be entitled to a €900 subsidy if their child (aged between six months and three years) is in childcare for 40 hours a week. This will be paid directly to the childcare provider with each child in care for 40 hours receiving an €80 subsidy a month."

If this is as exactly as it says on the tin, it is great news and takes so much pressure off, as to put just one child in child care for the month is upwards of €1000 in some places.

lazygal

I am not keen on this if it is paid directly to creches or other services. I hope this isn't a case of money going to one form of child care only and simply handing over more money to chains like Giraffe or Links which have already received massive grants and ECCE money. We have a minder in our home and I've no interest in sending my children to any of the local creches. How is it paid to the minder we hire to look after our children I wonder? And the hours we employ her for are lower than 40.

eviltwin

Not much use to anyone with a child more than three. Or who prefers child minders over creche. Or whose child is there less than 40 hours a week.

DeadlyByDesign

I think in that regard you may have hit the nail on the head in that it is paid directly to the likes of Giraffe/Links. Then again this is purely how I am understanding it and could be wrong.

DeadlyByDesign

https://www.rte.ie/news/budget-2017/2016/1011/823203-childcare-budget-2017/

fits

Any Tusla registered childminder is eligible.

DeadlyByDesign

It's also means tested, which again I am wondering how strict they are going to be in giving the access to the subsidy?

loyatemu

DeadlyByDesign wrote: »

If this is as exactly as it says on the tin, it is great news and takes so much pressure off, as to put just one child in child care for the month is upwards of €1000 in some places.

€1000 - €80 = €920 per month left for you to pay.
Not sure how that really takes the pressure off, it'll only be worth €20 a week to you, that's if the childcare provider even pass the subsidy on. They'll probably just increase their prices.

DeadlyByDesign

loyatemu wrote: »

€1000 - €80 = €920 per month left for you to pay.
Not sure how that really takes the pressure off, it'll only be worth €20 a week to you, that's if the childcare provider even pass the subsidy on. They'll probably just increase their prices.

The subsidy is up to €900? I am not sure where you are getting the €80 from, unless it is me that is missing something?

loyatemu

DeadlyByDesign wrote: »

The subsidy is up to €900? I am not sure where you are getting the €80 from, unless it is me that is missing something?

it's from your original post

DeadlyByDesign wrote: »

This will be paid directly to the childcare provider with each child in care for 40 hours receiving an €80 subsidy a month."

lazygal

fits wrote: »

Any Tusla registered childminder is eligible.

Ours is not, but we're happy with her regardless and this was not a factor we prioritised. I wonder how she goes about registering.

DeadlyByDesign

Apologies, I completely read that wrong, yep so this is pretty crap so....little or no point if families can be footing creche costs upwards of 1k a month. Crazy

lazygal

eviltwin wrote: »

Not much use to anyone with a child more than three. Or who prefers child minders over creche. Or whose child is there less than 40 hours a week.

Actually, now our younger one is three this is meaningless for us I guess. Child care help my eye.

ted1

DeadlyByDesign wrote: »

The subsidy is up to €900? I am not sure where you are getting the €80 from, unless it is me that is missing something?

900/12 = 75 a month. That should cover the increase that places will have as a result

DeadlyByDesign

ted1 wrote: »

900/12 = 75 a month. That should cover the increase that places will have as a result

Yeah that makes sense. Really how do they think this is going to make any difference considering creches can have costs upwards of 1k? Its not that I am being ungrateful but its just seems like so little.

Moonbeam

ugh I thought that they would do it as a tax credit.
It doesn't really do much to help people:(

neris

If the money is being paid directly to the creche they will have a set up in place where the creche cant increase your fees and they will inspect your income aswell. they do this with the ecce scheme already and are stringent in what the creche/pre schools can charge and they do check up on what each child is paying. From a childcare services point of view its disappointing to see they didnt do anything to help reduce the costs and overheads to providers that can be passed on in some way along with the pittence of a grant that parents will get.

Millem

The way I am reading it it is a "universal benefit" for all children 6 months to 3 years. Therefore everyone will get it regardless of income (like child benefit).

After that it is means tested.

My son is 3 in January but won't get ECCe until April. I wonder will he get it jan-March? We will defo be over income threshold for means tested

neris

they wont give ECCE for January-March as hes too young as they have all the systems set up for the year going on age.

Millem

Yes I know he is too young for ECCe until April. My question was will he get that subsidy from jan 2017 until 31st march 2017, then he gets ECCe from April 2017?

Anyway I see on another site it is not going to start until sept 2017 it will be on pro rata basis according to Irish times at 50cent per hour per week with a max of 40 hours per week.

SusanC10

Is there anything for Childcare for Primary School kids ? What is the Means Test Threshold ?

Thanks in advance.

Millem

Susan after 3 it is means tested until 16 years old. No idea what means test limit is sorry.

Moonbeam

"Childcare is getting a big overhaul: The new Single Affordable Childcare Scheme will begin next September, and will provide a universal subsidy to families who use childcare for their children under the age of 3. There will also be means-tested subsidies for children aged between 6 months and 15 years." (The Journal.ie)

ted1

neris wrote: »

If the money is being paid directly to the creche they will have a set up in place where the creche cant increase your fees and they will inspect your income aswell. they do this with the ecce scheme already and are stringent in what the creche/pre schools can charge and they do check up on what each child is paying. From a childcare services point of view its disappointing to see they didnt do anything to help reduce the costs and overheads to providers that can be passed on in some way along with the pittence of a grant that parents will get.

In fairness to the government they gave significant tax breaks to people building crèches, they have not done to bad.

galah

I just read that this measure is hoped to encourage women back into training or fulltime employment. How on earth is a 20 quid a week reduction going to help if the standard creche fees are around 150 quid or higher?

Bit pointless. Maybe the government should rather focus on exorbitant insurance costs for schools etc, and work on those - which could then bring the prices down for everyone and schools wont have to go begging to parents all the time.

pwurple

Good grief would they not just have done a simple f-ing tax credit. It didn't need to be big. Just something. Or, hullo like, child benefit? Two lovely mechanisms here lads already.

But no, a shiny new scheme to be administered. All this paperwork and applications, claims and means testing. Yadda yadda yadda... for what? To give 20 quid a week discount to people who have their toddlers in 40 hour a week creches. Hullo like? That can't be a lot of people and for anyone who does qualify, it's a frikken pittance.

Also, not starting until next september I think?


I just bloody hate when they come up with new mechanisms. It's the most expensive way of doing it possible.

cyning

I really really wish it was just a tax credit. In our case there is no way in hell we could send our 2 year old to a cr che. She needs a minder. Tusla registration for minders is only required when they have a certain amount of children (4 + under 6 I think but am open to correction). It cracks me up more money will probably go on implementing it than running it.

sullivk

What if I have 2 babies/toddlers in creche 2 days per week (20 hours)... Are we entitled to anything?

neris

ted1 wrote: »

In fairness to the government they gave significant tax breaks to people building crèches, they have not done to bad.

and do you think the Builders who built the creches actually run a creche a business? the vast majority of those that were built are owned by private individuals for investments and are rented out to creche operators who get charged the full whack of rent while the owner of the building gets a nice tax deduction for owning a building and renting it out

Ogham

There is some good information on this new Childcare stuff here.

It's available (means tested) for children over 3

LegacyUser

I recently costed a local creche at 1550eur a month for two kids for a 40 hour week (in a desperate hunt for childcare that has since been resolved!!).
I appreciate the thought-but 80eur a month isn't even a dent in that.If it's to be doubled to 160eur a month for two, that's not much of a dent either.
The only reason I can think of that they didn't use tax credits or children's benefit is that they probably saw it as being more equal for everyone, stay at home parents, low income earners etc to ensure they would all get it.But I really wonder how many people actually have their kids in creche five full days of the week.It's just not affordable for most of us.

pwurple

Ogham wrote: »

There is some good information on this new Childcare stuff here.

It's available (means tested) for children over 3

I have a huge problem with means testing. I know it's lauded as the cure-all so that people don't think they the wealthy get away with something.

But means-testing is fundamentally flawed.

First of all, it's more expensive and difficult to access than universal systems, meaning those who need it most get less (because the administrative cost of running it means there is less to go around). And lower socio-economic groups often find complex means-testing forms almost impossible to fill out, and embarrassing to have to ask for help with.

Secondly, the cut off points are always going to leave people feeling hard done by.

"Means-tested childcare subsidies, will be based on net parental income, and will be available for children between 6 months and 15 years. Any family with a combined net parental income of less than €47,501 a year will qualify"

So, Bob has an income of 47500, and George has the same income, but got a small bonus last year for picking up the phone outside work, so last year's net combined income is 47600. Bob qualifies for 1000 euro of assistance and George doesn't? ARG.

Ogham

I think one of the motives is to get more childcare providers registered too.

Macha

The NCWI pushed for the payments to go directly to the creches with this reasoning: “We also welcome that payments will be made directly to the service providers as a measure to increase quality and avoid that providers will simply increase costs."

http://www.nwci.ie/index.php?/learn/article/breakthrough_for_childcare_in_budget_2017

meeeeh

As someone who grew up in a system where organised childcare providers are subsidised I agree with the direction the government is going. The last thing you want to do is give money to just anyone who decides they will start minding the kids tomorrow. Surely it is the policy that could improve situation of one parent families and maybe eventually make it worthwhile for them to work. Two parent families where one can stay at home are not a priority and neither they should be so I don't see any point in tax credits. It's a good path to lower the pay discrepancies and progress for women in workforce. I also don't why black market economy or rouge providers should be encouraged by the state so it makes perfect sense to only subsidise registered childcare providers.

It's a start but more money will be needed to make a difference.

cyning

Meeeh just because a childminder isn't registered with tusla doesn't make them black market providers. I have two friends who are registered with the local county childcare committee, have received grants and pay taxes but under this new scheme they are considered unregistered as the scope where you register with tusla is very, very narrow.

meeeeh

cyning wrote: »

Meeeh just because a childminder isn't registered with tusla doesn't make them black market providers. I have two friends who are registered with the local county childcare committee, have received grants and pay taxes but under this new scheme they are considered unregistered as the scope where you register with tusla is very, very narrow.

I would say they will have to change the scope a bit because they will need more providers. As far as I know the shortage of resources is actually rhe main reason for delay in implementation till September. Neither do I think every nanny is on black market. But that still doesn't change the fact that tax credits would mean a lot of state money would end up with uninsured, unvouched minders who forget to pay tax. I have no intention interfering with other people's tax affairs but state can't finance that kind of stuff with subsidies. When you are giving out money you need some sort of oversight how it's being spent.

lazygal

It can't be that difficult to widen the scope. We employ a childminder in our home. We're registered as her employers and we do all the tax related stuff. It would be simply another box to tick if we were able to use the subsidy against all the other pay information and deductions we already take care of. People who do things properly should be able to avail of this.

deisemum

cyning wrote: »

Meeeh just because a childminder isn't registered with tusla doesn't make them black market providers. I have two friends who are registered with the local county childcare committee, have received grants and pay taxes but under this new scheme they are considered unregistered as the scope where you register with tusla is very, very narrow.

I'm a childminder and voluntary registered with my local Childcare Committee and Childminding Ireland. I used to be registered with the HSE (TULSA) and was inspected a number of times but took my name off their register because I didn't want to mind more than 3 preschoolers. I've always been tax compliant.

I'm currently listening to this debate on the Claire Byrne Show and heard that voluntary registered childminders are currently unable to register with TULSA unless they look after 4 or more preschool children. That's cutting out the majority of childminders but even if there are changes that will allow childminders minding 3 or less preschoolers to avail of this subsidy and I re-register with TULSA I'll have no choice but to up my fees.

Weyhey

The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs is now carrying out this public consultation on the detail of the scheme’s design. The Department will use survey responses to help refine specific design features as well as to consider options for future development.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/AffordableChildcareScheme

Have your say!

Survey closes Nov 25th.

I have put this in a separate thread on its on and only saw this thread now. I think it is a big enough issue to appear twice.

Ogham

Weyhey wrote: »

The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs is now carrying out this public consultation on the detail of the scheme s design. The Department will use survey responses to help refine specific design features as well as to consider options for future development.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/Affor...hildcareScheme

Have your say!

Survey closes Nov 25th.

I have put this in a separate thread on its on and only saw this thread now. I think it is a big enough issue to appear twice.

Here is the correct link for that survey https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/AffordableChildcareScheme

McGiver

pwurple wrote: »

I have a huge problem with means testing. I know it's lauded as the cure-all so that people don't think they the wealthy get away with something.

But means-testing is fundamentally flawed.

First of all, it's more expensive and difficult to access than universal systems, meaning those who need it most get less (because the administrative cost of running it means there is less to go around). And lower socio-economic groups often find complex means-testing forms almost impossible to fill out, and embarrassing to have to ask for help with.

Secondly, the cut off points are always going to leave people feeling hard done by.

"Means-tested childcare subsidies, will be based on net parental income, and will be available for children between 6 months and 15 years. Any family with a combined net parental income of less than €47,501 a year will qualify"

So, Bob has an income of 47500, and George has the same income, but got a small bonus last year for picking up the phone outside work, so last year's net combined income is 47600. Bob qualifies for 1000 euro of assistance and George doesn't? ARG.

I get your point, it is valid. But in this case the cut-off is gradual. See attached.

My issue is rather with the cut-off value, which seems to be low. Basically, this favours only low income families and the "squeezed-in-the-middle" get nothing. Median gross salary is €32k, so a "typical median family" of two full time working parents earning a median income would have €64k gross income, which is way past the cut-off point in this scheme.

I understand that lower income earners need help the most but it is not fair that middle-income earners are completely left out with no subsidy.
Also, "stay at home mum/dad" families which get a €1100 tax credit (plus €1650 of PAYE credit in a joint taxation scenario) a year and that is a joke.

Summary info about the scheme is here:
http://www.dcya.gov.ie/documents/earlyyears/20161018Budget2017FAQDoc.pdf