Weight training for distance runners

RayCun

(since 'strength training' threads often mix in bodyweight/flexibility discussion)

At the moment I'm doing a gym session once a week, which usually includes

Squats
15x50kg
15x55
15x60
15x55

Straight-arm dumbbell pullovers
3x(15x8kg)

Calf raises (bar on shoulders, balls of feet on plank of wood with heels off the back, going up onto toes)
3x(15x30kg)

Bench press
3x(15x30kg)

and some step-ups or unweighted split squats to fill time.

This is basically what the others are doing (heavier squats, lighter bench press :rolleyes:) - which has been fine to build up some basic strength.

Now I'm wondering how to progress on this, and make it more specific for distance running. Maybe make the squats more pyramidal, higher weights fewer reps? Spend a little less time on arm work? More time on the step ups, weights in the split squats?

pconn062

I would be looking at more weight, less reps. Your doing 60 squats which I would suggest is overkill and also that the weight is too light if you could do that many. Lots of reps with low weight is good for muscular endurance but you should be more concerned with strength/power so higher weight/lower reps is better. Contrary to popular belief you won't bulk up unless you significantly up your calorie intake.

I would go something like 3 sets of 4-6 reps at a weight that leaves you fairly relieved to be finished, you can judge that yourself.

Maybe some sort deadlift, either double or single leg for glute max and hamstring. I find step up's great for glute max recruitment, start with light dumbbells in each hand and then build weight until you can do it with a barbell on your shoulders.

The bench press and arm stuff looks good but I would do it towards the end of the session so you can do the leg stuff when less fatigued. Also, less reps/more weight would ultimately be better.

BeepBeep67

Serious question - would once a week make any difference?

Chivito550

I don't really know from a distance runners point of view how to approach it, but I'd also suggest less reps more weight. 10 reps per set is fine when building a base, but you want to be looking at 4-6 after that to build strength. Once you've built strength you want to covert this to power by doing plyometric type exercises. I know this seems a bit sprinter orientated but I'm sure there's huge benefits to developing power over longer distances too. Mo Farah squats heavy after all.

RayCun

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Serious question - would once a week make any difference?

A second session would be great, but it is impossible to find the time right now. (I'm doing bodyweight work every day but there are only certain times we can use the gym)

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

I don't really know from a distance runners point of view how to approach it, but I'd also suggest less reps more weight. 10 reps per set is fine when building a base, but you want to be looking at 4-6 after that to build strength. Once you've built strength you want to covert this to power by doing plyometric type exercises. I know this seems a bit sprinter orientated but I'm sure there's huge benefits to developing power over longer distances too. Mo Farah squats heavy after all.

Yeah, it has come up a lot on endurance training courses.

mushykeogh

RayCun wrote: »

(since 'strength training' threads often mix in bodyweight/flexibility discussion)



Straight-arm dumbbell pullovers
3x(15x8kg)

Calf raises (bar on shoulders, balls of feet on plank of wood with heels off the back, going up onto toes)
3x(15x30kg)

Bench press
3x(15x30kg)

higher weights fewer reps? Spend a little less time on arm work? More time on the step ups, weights in the split squats?

Why are you doing these exercises? JUst curious, you would definitely benefit from higher weights and less reps. Keep the bench and pair it with either inverted rows or pull ups.
If your going to do calves do some eccentric work.
Some hamstring/gute specific work could be added too.
Transition from strength then to power is a little dated.No reason why both cnnot be worked all year around, just change the emphasis as needed.

RayCun

Small school gym, the school supplied space and we supplied equipment

ford2600

RayCun wrote: »

Small school gym, the school supplied space and we supplied equipment

I do quite a bit of strength training, and while injury is less likely at the weights you are lifting the risk increases with 5 by 5 strong lifts type program where you would probably be squatting your body weight and some pretty quickly and deadlifting 1.5 times BW.

Before you up weight, get your mobility assessed and get your technique dialled in. At lower weights you'll get away with poor mobility/technique but at higher weights you can easily mangle yourself.

I'm all for strength work, once mobility is A1 and then technique.

Chivito550

Was at a seminar put on by my club at the weekend and Peter Matthews was talking at it. He was saying that he never did strength and conditioning training during the early and middle part of his career. In his early years he worked in physical labour and unknown to himself he was developing a strong core. He never had a single injury. After a few years he got a desk job which he thought would help him feel more rested for his sessions. It worked the opposite. He no longer was building a strong core. He started to constantly break down with injuries, and would always be trying to merely manage them. It took him years to figure out the link between his physical labour and his injury free years early on in his career. He got everybody to stand on one foot and people were wobbling around the place, so only imagine what's happening when you are running, as when you are running you are always only on one leg.

Food for thought for distance runners here who continue to ignore S&C and wonder why they are always getting injured.

kit3

Chivito550 wrote: »

Was at a seminar put on by my club at the weekend and Peter Matthews was talking at it. He was saying that he never did strength and conditioning training during the early and middle part of his career. In his early years he worked in physical labour and unknown to himself he was developing a strong core. He never had a single injury. After a few years he got a desk job which he thought would help him feel more rested for his sessions. It worked the opposite. He no longer was building a strong core. He started to constantly break down with injuries, and would always be trying to merely manage them. It took him years to figure out the link between his physical labour and his injury free years early on in his career. He got everybody to stand on one foot and people were wobbling around the place, so only imagine what's happening when you are running, as when you are running you are always only on one leg.

Food for thought for distance runners here who continue to ignore S&C and wonder why they are always getting injured.

Curious to know - if people didn't wobble while standing on one foot, was this a sign of a strong core ??

Chivito550

kit3 wrote: »

Curious to know - if people didn't wobble while standing on one foot, was this a sign of a strong core ??

Not sure if it's a telltale sign of a strong core, but not being able to stand comfortably on one leg would be the sign of a weak core.

Myles Splitz

Chivito550 wrote: »

but not being able to stand comfortably on one leg would be the sign of a weak core.

No necessarily it can actually be a sign of propioceptive dysfunction which, given poor rehab protocol of the past, can be quite common in general demographic of runners in this country (how many people growing up went over on ankle or broke it without rehabbing after but just let it heal)

average_runner

Last month I bought the runner connect strength training book, its very good with loads of exercises and plans for building your core. Also gives you programs for your ITB and Achilles if its weak.

RacoonQueen

One of the most beneficial things you can do is get a specific programme for you - the best person to do that for you IMO is a good trainer who does sports massage and has had their hands on you. As Myles would know - getting your hands on someone you'll notice weaknesses and imbalances.
If they can watch you run etc also even better (particularly when you're fatigued) - not possible for everyone but it's a good way to build an effective strength training programme.

Pete actually did one out for me years ago when I was still working in the industry myself he was always my go to guy for sports massage and coaching. His programme is still the skeleton of what I use today

RacoonQueen

One of the most beneficial things you can do is get a specific programme for you - the best person to do that for you IMO is a good trainer who does sports massage and has had their hands on you. As Myles would know - getting your hands on someone you'll notice weaknesses and imbalances.
If they can watch you run etc also even better (particularly when you're fatigued) - not possible for everyone but it's a good way to build an effective strength training programme.

Pete actually did one out for me years ago when I was still working in the industry myself he was always my go to guy for sports massage and coaching. His programme is still the skeleton of what I use today

Halloween Jack

Have people worked on specific weaknesses in they gym and if so how long does it take to get results? I have fairly weak hamstrings which give me trouble when running, have been doing some strength stuff in the gym for about a month to help, some daysmy hamstrings feel strong but they can feel weak or overworked if I'm running the day after I've been in the gym...

RacoonQueen

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Have people worked on specific weaknesses in they gym and if so how long does it take to get results? I have fairly weak hamstrings which give me trouble when running, have been doing some strength stuff in the gym for about a month to help, some daysmy hamstrings feel strong but they can feel weak or overworked if I'm running the day after I've been in the gym...

What are you doing in the gym for your hamstirngs? What else are you working? Do you know what is causing the weakness?

Halloween Jack

RacoonQueen wrote: »

What are you doing in the gym for your hamstirngs? What else are you working? Do you know what is causing the weakness?

Thanks for the response. I'm just doing a general program that the instructor in the gym gave me, basically 4 upper body exercises (rows, pull downs etc) and two lower body exercises which are working my hamstrings (seated curl and seated leg press). The issues are caused by long periods seated with bad posture, making them short and tight as far as I know. When I'm running while they don't cause pain as such but feel incredibly weak.

Myles Splitz

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Thanks for the response. I'm just doing a general program that the instructor in the gym gave me, basically 4 upper body exercises (rows, pull downs etc) and two lower body exercises which are working my hamstrings (seated curl and seated leg press). The issues are caused by long periods seated with bad posture, making them short and tight as far as I know. When I'm running while they don't cause pain as such but feel incredibly weak.

I would get away from Hamstring Curls (wouldn't be a fan of them in general but particularly in your case) by the sounds of this (though best to seek an assessment from someone to confirm) the issue is not actually your hamstring strength but rather another muscle is inhibited, causing the hamstring to work too hard in a contracted state.

If you don't decide to get it looked at I would advise you to instead ask the instructor about eccentric hamstring exercises instead as an alternative that probably yield better results (again this is based on information available, you are best to get it assessed properly)

Halloween Jack

Myles Splitz wrote: »

I would get away from Hamstring Curls (wouldn't be a fan of them in general but particularly in your case) by the sounds of this (though best to seek an assessment from someone to confirm) the issue is not actually your hamstring strength but rather another muscle is inhibited, causing the hamstring to work too hard in a contracted state.

If you don't decide to get it looked at I would advise you to instead ask the instructor about eccentric hamstring exercises instead as an alternative that probably yield better results (again this is based on information available, you are best to get it assessed properly)

Many thanks for the info, I was hoping that some general strengthening would keep me away from the physio but seems like I'll have to bite the bullet...

RacoonQueen

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Thanks for the response. I'm just doing a general program that the instructor in the gym gave me, basically 4 upper body exercises (rows, pull downs etc) and two lower body exercises which are working my hamstrings (seated curl and seated leg press). The issues are caused by long periods seated with bad posture, making them short and tight as far as I know. When I'm running while they don't cause pain as such but feel incredibly weak.

There's a major problem right there. Gym instructors (in general) are not trained for anything as specific as this (trust me I studied it and worked in gyms) - a couple of sessions with a decent personal trainer who will do a good assessment would be far better than what the gym instructor paid you, though again, like with a physio that costs money. You likely need a functional assessment to see what is actually causing the weakness - as Myles has touched on above.

ford2600

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Thanks for the response. I'm just doing a general program that the instructor in the gym gave me, basically 4 upper body exercises (rows, pull downs etc) and two lower body exercises which are working my hamstrings (seated curl and seated leg press). The issues are caused by long periods seated with bad posture, making them short and tight as far as I know. When I'm running while they don't cause pain as such but feel incredibly weak.

Unless you address that are you not just going to end up back at square one again?

Can you sit less at work? Standing desk for example?

Sit less in general and maybe look into active sitting postures.

Halloween Jack

ford2600 wrote: »

Unless you address that are you not just going to end up back at square one again?

Can you sit less at work? Standing desk for example?

Sit less in general and maybe look into active sitting postures.

I try to get up and stretch for 5-10 mins every hour and stroll at break times to loosen up. Seems to help a bit. Ultimately though it's an issue that has caused me a number of injury issues since I started running a few years back. Will go back to the physio I suppose, was hoping like I said above that some general gym work would keep me injury free but back to the drawing board I suppose.

mushykeogh

Halloween Jack wrote: »

The issues are caused by long periods seated with bad posture, making them short and tight as far as I know. When I'm running while they don't cause pain as such but feel incredibly weak.

Most likely not tight or weak from sitting down, more like glutes getting weak from sitting and possibly hip flexors getting strong and tight from the sitting position. Hamstrings probably just overworked as mentioned earlier.

Why any one would want to use a hamstring curl machine is beyond me. Impossible to know with out an assessment. Good s&c coach will sort you out.

Halloween Jack

mushykeogh wrote: »

Most likely not tight or weak from sitting down, more like glutes getting weak from sitting and possibly hip flexors getting strong and tight from the sitting position. Hamstrings probably just overworked as mentioned earlier.

Why any one would want to use a hamstring curl machine is beyond me. Impossible to know with out an assessment. Good s&c coach will sort you out.

Thanks again for the reply, have been told by physios before that my hips are tight so there must be something to this. I'll book an appointment with sportsmed, I'be been putting in reasonable time at the gym so may as well use it properly...