Uk/Ireland Passport Control

ScotWings

Something struck me when flying between Edinburgh and Dublin last week.

On the outward Edinburgh to Dublin leg, I was required to go through passport control on arrival in Dublin. However, on the return flight, we arrived into Edinburgh and walked straight into the terminal without the need for any passport checks.

Why is this the case? I assumed it would be the same both ways!

JCX BXC

No facility for domestic arrivals in Ireland. In the UK all Irish arrivals are (currently) considered domestic, so the only place your passport is getting checked is at the gate.

goingnowhere

For UK <=>Ireland, there is not a legal requirement to check passports but either jurisdiction has the right to check all arrivals for ID

All passengers at all Irish airports are checked
UK authorities conduct random checks

If you are a UK or Irish citizen you do not need a passport but need some photo ID which demonstrates you are a UK or Irish citizen. Note Ryanair won't let you fly without a passport, CityJet, Aer Lingus, British Airways will

Pat Dunne

goingnowhere wrote: »

If you are a UK or Irish citizen you do not need a passport but need some photo ID which demonstrates you are a UK or Irish citizen. Note Ryanair won't let you fly without a passport, CityJet, Aer Lingus, British Airways will

Pardon my inorance, apart from a passport what other acceptable form of ID demonstrates that the holder is a UK or Irish citizen?

roundymac

Driving licence, work I/D card.

Pat Dunne

roundymac wrote: »

Driving licence, work I/D card.

Please read my question above in full as I understand what is airline acceptable ID

My question is in relation to goingnowhere's post.

goingnowhere wrote: »

If you are a UK or Irish citizen you do not need a passport but need some photo ID which demonstrates you are a UK or Irish citizen. Note Ryanair won't let you fly without a passport, CityJet, Aer Lingus, British Airways will

An Irish Driving License does not demonstrate you are a citizen of the Republic of Ireland.

A work ID does not contain any legally recognisable residency or citizenship information.

JCX BXC

Pat Dunne wrote: »

An Irish Driving License does not demonstrate you are a citizen of the Republic of Ireland.

A work ID does not contain any legally recognisable residency or citizenship information.

Driving licence is an acceptable form of ID to Britian, doubt a Work ID is.

maximum12

Pat Dunne wrote: »

Pardon my inorance, apart from a passport what other acceptable form of ID demonstrates that the holder is a UK or Irish citizen?

Technically you don't need any ID and showing your boarding card should suffice to prove that you've travelled from the UK. That's all you show at Gatwick where they don't have domestic passengers separated but do have a domestic lane at one side.


But a good idea to have some photo ID.

Pat Dunne

Carnacalla wrote: »

Driving licence is an acceptable form of ID to Britian, doubt a Work ID is.

I fully understand that a Driving License is an acceptable form ID for some airlines.

My question relates to the following

goingnowhere wrote: »

If you are a UK or Irish citizen you do not need a passport but need some photo ID which demonstrates you are a UK or Irish citizen. Note Ryanair won't let you fly without a passport, CityJet, Aer Lingus, British Airways will

So other than a Passport what airline acceptable document demonstrates you are a citizen of either country that comprise of the commom travel area.

goingnowhere

One of the new photo DSP cards works, drivers licence, annual train ticket etc

While the ID might not show nationality it proves residence in that country

maximum12

Pat Dunne wrote: »

I fully understand that a Driving License is an acceptable form ID for some airlines.

My question relates to the following

So other than a Passport what airline acceptable document demonstrates you are a citizen of either country that comprise of the commom travel area.

None. But you don't have to prove anything. If you did then it wouldn't be a CTA.

However, if the immigration officer suspects you're not Irish or British he may ask some questions to satisfy himself. Having a name like Pat Dunne and an Irish accent probably helps.

martinsvi

goingnowhere wrote: »

If you are a UK or Irish citizen you do not need a passport but need some photo ID which demonstrates you are a UK or Irish citizen. Note Ryanair won't let you fly without a passport, CityJet, Aer Lingus, British Airways will

most EU countries issue National ID cards, I know a lot of people from the continent who frequently travel Ireland to UK and back with Ryanair without a passport, having just national ID cards with them. Common travel area is not only for Irish/British citizens you know

Pat Dunne

martinsvi wrote: »

most EU countries issue National ID cards, I know a lot of people from the continent who frequently travel Ireland to UK and back with Ryanair without a passport, having just national ID cards with them. Common travel area is not only for Irish/British citizens you know

Thank you martinsvi.
The point I wish to make is directed to goingnowhere's reference to citizenship.

Ryanair simply provide a list of documents which they deem as acceptable and that you must be in possession of when you travel with them on international flights. They make no reference to citzenship or a demonstration of citizenship.

Travel documents-photo id
https://www.ryanair.com/ie/en/useful-info/help-centre/terms-and-conditions/termsandconditionsar_368204930#section-article-termsandconditionsse_579117795

Marcusm

Carnacalla wrote: »

No facility for domestic arrivals in Ireland. In the UK all Irish arrivals are (currently) considered domestic, so the only place your passport is getting checked is at the gate.

Actually that's too simplistic. Ireland and other CTA arrivals are segregated until after baggage reclaim from domestic. Ie not only do the UK airports have to properly respect the passport position but they also segregate to permit Customs to separate CTA baggage if the choose to do so. DAA of course is permitted to accept the lowest common denominator in both respects and subject UK arrivals to the same treatment as those arriving from Turkey. As usual, proper planning is never enforced.

maximum12

martinsvi wrote: »

most EU countries issue National ID cards, I know a lot of people from the continent who frequently travel Ireland to UK and back with Ryanair without a passport, having just national ID cards with them. Common travel area is not only for Irish/British citizens you know

Yes it is actually. Again UK and Ireland people do not need any travel document for immigration purposes. Lots of EU countries have mandatory national identity cards which are usable in lieu of a passport.

Bazzo

Ryanair used to only accept passports. Has that changed? Also, I'd imagine the new passport card is a perfectly acceptable form of ID for flying as well as driving licence.

maximum12

Bazzo wrote: »

Ryanair used to only accept passports. Has that changed? Also, I'd imagine the new passport card is a perfectly acceptable form of ID for flying as well as driving licence.

Ryanair have always accepted national ID cards. As Ireland does not have a national ID card, it's either passport or passport card.

Pat Dunne

goingnowhere wrote: »

One of the new photo DSP cards works, drivers licence, annual train ticket etc

While the ID might not show nationality it proves residence in that country

None of these doccuments are acceptable forms of ID on Ryanair international flights leaving the Republic of Ireland.

I am afraid that you are making this much more complicated and confusing than what it actually is.

Ryanair simply require an intended passenger on international flights from the Republic of Ireland to be the holder of a ID which Ryanair list as acceptable. In the case of Irish Citizens this takes the form of a Irish Passport or an Irish Passport Card. Non Irish Citizen can and do produce other forms of ID acceptable to Ryanair, when intending to travel on international flights from the Republic of Ireland.

This is not a demonstration of citizenship or residency it is a demonstration that you legally hold an document acceptable to Ryanair that proves your Identification, nothing more nothing less!

Immigration authorities on either side of the Republic of Ireland & UK Commom Travel Area are there to enforce citizenship, residency and visa protocols, not airlines!

martinsvi

maximum12 wrote: »

Yes it is actually. Again UK and Ireland people do not need any travel document for immigration purposes. Lots of EU countries have mandatory national identity cards which are usable in lieu of a passport.

I mispoke.. what I meant to say is that EU nationals are taking the advantage of the lack of immigration control in UK airports as well, much like they are used to in Schengen zone

The Veteran

I laugh when I see threads like this. Some previous posters have clarified elements that I was going to get into.

If the OP's question relates to immigration control then none of the airline policies are of any relevance but for the avoidance of doubt - anyone who contracts with Ryanair accepts the requirement to produce the relevant documents to them for their purposes.

The arrival of passengers into Ireland (by air) for immigration purposes requires everyone as defined in the relevant legislation to be in possession of a passport or acceptable equivalent except those who are not non nationals arriving from the UK.

As correctly already clarified, CTA arrivals into UK arrivals are not treated as domestic by UKBF - all Irish flight pass UKBF Customs Officers; UK domestics don't.

The relevant legislation is section 11 of the Immigration Act 2004 as amended.

There are a number of ways to satisfy an Immigration Officer as to citizenship including the fact that proof of birth on the island of Ireland prior to 2005 demonstrates Irish citizenship thus as place of birth is shown on a driving licence; a driving licence suffices on CTA arrivals into Ireland.

Ireland and the U.K. operate the CTA arrangement between them but there are different laws in each as to how it actually operates.

trellheim

Nope its a stupid SI that DAA and INIS ( or whatever they were back then ) got changed because they couldn;t be arsed putting proper CTA facilities into T1 and T2.


I am stopped the odd time going through LHR. BHX, MAN or any lesser airport in UK and asked politely for identification . This is about 1 in 20 times; it was up to 5 out of 10 at the worst of the IRA bombings. There is a dedicated route for the CTA for all ROI inbounds into UK; you are very deliberately not stopped unless border force have intel to do everyone or theres a random search

Insults and rant deleted

I've asked you for hard evidence before regarding operational reasons requiring avoidance of CTA procedures and all I got before was similar waffle to the above.

Tenger

trellheim wrote: »

......
I've asked you for hard evidence before regarding operational reasons requiring avoidance of CTA procedures and all I got before was similar waffle to the above.

If you want "hard evidence regarding operational reasons" then contact the govt depts responsible for the implementation of the CTA regs. Perhaps the professionals will provide you with non-waffle.
We dont need to read your rants about this issue on a casual discussion forum for aviation.

The Veteran

Trellheim - you refer to "CTA procedures" - to what exactly are you referring? I have repeatedly quoted the relevant law here; I have also pointed out that the CTA is an "arrangement" not an international agreement and there is no express provision for it in Irish law.

A "few undesirables" - good man - you mean people who are non-complaint with laws; people who are making it harder and harder to justify the CTA might continue at all and people who are ripping off taxpayers for example.

You also ignore the very basic point that Ireland and the U.K. are two separate countries who can operate in different ways.

Daa built and operate Dublin Airport - what you refer to a CTA channel could be operated tomorrow but there would still be a control on it.

You are filing to grasp basics - passport free travel is provided for at Dublin Airport everyday of the week for those who qualify for it. Also, average queue times for EU passengers are about two minutes. If you travel into Gatwick with either FR or EI; Manchester with EI; Glsgow with EU etc etc you get put on a bus and driven to usually a "back door" - all told takes longer than in Dublin.

Edit: I deleted the last line of this post. It was a getting personal. Theres no need to back seat mod another poster.

Bazzo

The last 6 or 7 times in a row I've flown into Leeds from Dublin they've been checking everybody's passport/ID

Up until about a year ago it was a rarity to get it checked coming in.

trellheim

Trellheim - you refer to "CTA procedures" - to what exactly are you referring? I have repeatedly quoted the relevant law here; I have also pointed out that the CTA is an "arrangement" not an international agreement and there is no express provision for it in Irish law.

A "few undesirables" - good man - you mean people who are non-complaint with laws; people who are making it harder and harder to justify the CTA might continue at all and people who are ripping off taxpayers for example.

You also ignore the very basic point that Ireland and the U.K. are two separate countries who can operate in different ways.

Daa built and operate Dublin Airport - what you refer to a CTA channel could be operated tomorrow but there would still be a control on it.

You are filing to grasp basics - passport free travel is provided for at Dublin Airport everyday of the week for those who qualify for it. Also, average queue times for EU passengers are about two minutes. If you travel into Gatwick with either FR or EI; Manchester with EI; Glsgow with EU etc etc you get put on a bus and driven to usually a "back door" - all told takes longer than in Dublin.

There is no requirement for a control , just as you see no motorists being stopped on the M1 to Newry. INIS and DAA took one small SI and changed it . ID free controls are not available in Dublin Airport from CTA flights. If you provide a driving license at T1 and T2 you get asked for boarding cards 90% of the time ( and there is NO requirement to hold a boarding card on your person, you can bin it as soon as you walk off the flight ) and a look of someone whos not following the rules.

GO provide some reason for this ; you provided none yet "people ripping off Irish Taxpayers" - that's your retort ? Is that codified into operational INIS guidance ?

Apply the same controls to all UK/ROI borders and we'll see if the sounds match the vision . My inadequacies are legion but at least I'm being honest.

The Veteran

trellheim wrote: »

There is no requirement for a control , just as you see no motorists being stopped on the M1 to Newry. INIS and DAA took one small SI and changed it . ID free controls are not available in Dublin Airport from CTA flights. If you provide a driving license at T1 and T2 you get asked for boarding cards 90% of the time and a look of someone whos not following the rules.

GO provide some reason for this ; you provided none yet "people ripping off Irish Taxpayers" - that's your retort ? Is that codified into operational INIS guidance ?

Apply the same controls to all UK/ROI borders and we'll see if the sounds match the vision . My inadequacies are legion but at least I'm being honest.

You may have an opinion that there is no requirement for a control but where are the "CTA procedures" you referenced enshrined in law?

Border Force is governed by UK law so again if you do your research you will know what law they are applying in conducting "random checks". Also, Border Force has just been through a round of savage cuts to staffing levels - they don't have the manpower to do the checks they want to.

Also, there was a full check on the border at Carrickarnon last Monday - ask BBC\ITV they were there to cover it.

As for being asked to produce a boarding card if you tender a driving licence that is the application of section 11 of the 04 Act - if you are travelling within the CTA you don't need a passport.

I am going to say it again - the CTA is simply passport free travel for those who are eligible for it; it is not control free travel.

Now go to bed and get up early to do your research ...

trellheim

Are you saying the absence of immigration control on the M1 is illegal ? . The only (only) thing allowing immigration control for CTA is an amendment of an SI to change one word, if I recall.

Your Carrickarnon check was a random one.

Tenger

Thread re-opened.
Anyone who goes on a rant will get a ban next time

OzCam

The new (ish) Public Services Card are a national ID document in everything but name. I wonder if we'll ever be honest about it, or if FR will ever accept them in lieu of a passport?

At least they're a handy size, not like the photo page of a passport (which some other national ID cards resemble).

Faith+1

The heck did I just read

Marcusm

OzCam wrote: »

The new (ish) Public Services Card are a national ID document in everything but name. I wonder if we'll ever be honest about it, or if FR will ever accept them in lieu of a passport?

At least they're a handy size, not like the photo page of a passport (which some other national ID cards resemble).

They have neither date of birth nor nationality and are unlikely ever to be accepted for any travel purpose except within Ireland. The Passport Card would satisfy relevant rules.

trellheim

This is a rule imposed by Ryanair . The government have been asked several times to stop them doing this and to harmonize with the other airlines flying CTA routes; the government have refused to get involved every time.

It is highly invidious but there you are.

JCX BXC

trellheim wrote: »

This is a rule imposed by Ryanair . The government have been asked several times to stop them doing this and to harmonize with the other airlines flying CTA routes; the government have refused to get involved every time.

It is highly invidious but there you are.

Why should the government get involved?

goingnowhere

Carnacalla wrote: »

trellheim wrote: »

This is a rule imposed by Ryanair . The government have been asked several times to stop them doing this and to harmonize with the other airlines flying CTA routes; the government have refused to get involved every time.

It is highly invidious but there you are.

Why should the government get involved?

Since this is a restriction on free movement, plus it creates a demand for passports when legally one is not required for the planned journey

LXFlyer

goingnowhere wrote: »

Since this is a restriction on free movement, plus it creates a demand for passports when legally one is not required for the planned journey

But don't Ryanair impose the same restriction across Europe?

Why would they treat the CTA differently?

That's their company policy. While we might not like it, no one is forced to use Ryanair if they don't wish to.

Riskymove

lxflyer wrote: »

But don't Ryanair impose the same restriction across Europe?

absolutely, even where flying within Schengen

trellheim

But don't Ryanair impose the same restriction across Europe?

Why would they treat the CTA differently?

That's their company policy. While we might not like it, no one is forced to use Ryanair if they don't wish to.

1. They do not have to impose this restriction - it is purely self-imposed. This itself was surprising given they didn't even bother with seat allocation for most of their existence.

2. UK-only domestic flights can still use 'Any photo ID which matches the passenger name in the booking' ( see https://www.ryanair.com/gb/en/useful-info/help-centre/faq-overview/Travel-documentation/Are-driving-licenses-accepted-as-a-travel-document-on-Ryanair-flights)

3. As is well known, they did not always do this ; they stopped accepting anything but passports on CTA flights not so long ago. Their reasons are their own but it is extremely irritating.

In researching this I was surprised at the amount of times the government had been asked to standardize this.

But I take lx's point . you don't have to use them.