The UK Government wants to draw up a list of all 'non-British' workers

Nomis21

http://www.thejournal.ie/uk-foreigners-3010996-Oct2016/


Does anyone really think that Irish citizens working in the UK will be included in this list?


Or is this just media scaremongering?

ScumLord

We can't take Dara B'Briain back now, we have no where to put him, he's old space in the attic has a water tank in it now.

keeponhurling

Not sure why they wouldn't already have this information.
To work you need a PPS number (in this case, the UK equivalent) and that is something the government will already have.

wes

keeponhurling wrote: »

Not sure why they wouldn't already have this information.
To work you need a PPS number (in this case, the UK equivalent) and that is something the government will already have.

Its one part to name and shame companies who hire Johnny Foreigner, and other part socking it to Johnny Foreigner.

Grayson

wes wrote: »

Its one part to name and shame companies who hire Johnny Foreigner, and other part socking it to Johnny Foreigner.

It's getting pretty bad when they decide to create a database of foreign workers. They're definitely playing up to the latent xenophobia in certain parts of the electorate.

Nomis21

Grayson wrote: »

It's getting pretty bad when they decide to create a database of foreign workers. They're definitely playing up to the latent xenophobia in certain parts of the electorate.

It's not government policy yet, but it just shows what the UK Conservative party is capable of doing. I find that frightening.

wes

Grayson wrote: »

They're definitely playing up to the latent xenophobia in certain parts of the electorate.

Exactly, and when another Polish lad is murdered, they will pretend that there Xenophobic **** stirring had nothing to do with it.

BrokenArrows

It is pretty amazing that they dont already have this information.

Im all for freedom of travel, but that doesnt mean you shouldnt track who is coming and going from the country.

Passports should be displayed and recorded at all borders.

wes

BrokenArrows wrote: »

It is pretty amazing that they dont already have this information.

Im all for freedom of travel, but that doesnt mean you shouldnt track who is coming and going from the country.

Passports should be displayed and recorded at all borders.

The purpose has nothing to do with knowing about who is, and isn't the country. The stated intention is to "name and shame" companies who are hiring Johnny Foreigner.

BrokenArrows

wes wrote: »

The purpose has nothing to do with knowing about who is, and isn't the country. The stated intention is to "name and shame" companies who are hiring Johnny Foreigner.

I don't think there is anything wrong with this as long as it targets companies which are purposely hiring foreigners for whatever reason and discriminating against British candidates of equal or better qualifications.

imitation

Its ok, at least the rest of the EU knows what happens when people start talking about making lists ( like a certain person 70 odd years back).

And when skilled fleeing the uk get a work permit in the EU/US they probably wont be put on some list either.

wes

BrokenArrows wrote: »

I don't think there is anything wrong with this as long as it targets companies which are purposely hiring foreigners for whatever reason and discriminating against British candidates of equal or better qualifications.

Its for every company. A pointless bit of bureaucracy, that the British used to blame the EU on.

darkpagandeath

Don't see an issue sounds like a Great Idea lets do it EU wide. See what companies are playing fairly.

Dick phelan

Pretty scary stuff tbh, 1989 is becoming a reality, Wonder how British people will react if they can't work anywhere outside the UK i'm by no means left wing but this type of stuff is way over the line

BrokenArrows

wes wrote: »

Its for every company. A pointless bit of bureaucracy, that the British used to blame the EU on.

Its not pointless at all.

A country should absolutely know who is inside its borders at all times.

The current system doesn't keep track of anyone. I live in London and I could hop on a ferry to Ireland tomorrow and the UK government would have no idea that I have left the country.

One of the Major issues with the Brexit campaign was that noone had any ****ing idea how many foreign nations were actually in the country, never mind how many were actively working.
So the people who were campaigning for Brexit could say any number they wanted and there was no evidence back it up or to to counter it.

Someone in Ireland for example could book a ferry under a false name, go to the UK, commit a crime and return on the ferry to Ireland. The UK has no idea you even entered the country and Ireland didnt know you left. There are no border checks on that ferry crossing.

wes

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Its not pointless at all.

A country should absolutely know who is inside its borders at all times.

It is when you already have that information from visa applications etc.

Secondly, naming and shaming companies for hiring to many immigrants is pointless, and utterly stupid, and borderline facist.

BrokenArrows wrote: »

The current system doesn't keep track of anyone. I live in London and I could hop on a ferry to Ireland tomorrow and the UK government would have no idea that I have left the country.

So what? Why does the UK government need to know you have left? Surely, they will figure it out, when they see you aren't paying taxes or claiming the dole. What right does the UK government have to know that someone has decided to leave the country?

BrokenArrows wrote: »

One of the Major issues with the Brexit campaign was that noone had any ****ing idea how many foreign nations were actually in the country, never mind how many were actively working.

So the people who were campaigning for Brexit could say any number they wanted and there was no evidence back it up or to to counter it.

Yeah, and seeing as there leaving, they will have that information via Visa applications etc.

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Someone in Ireland for example could book a ferry under a false name, go to the UK, commit a crime and return on the ferry to Ireland. The UK has no idea you even entered the country and Ireland didnt know you left. There are no border checks on that ferry crossing.

I can travel by train and give a false name and travel from Dublin to County Cork, commit a crime, and return to Dublin. No one the wiser. So, we should put up checkpoint around all our counties? How about checkpoints at every street?

Riddle101

The plan, under consideration by the Home Office, is designed to ensure British workers get preference for any new jobs.

I don't like the sound of that at all. Looks like it will lead to discrimination towards people who aren't British, most notably Irish people.

bodhrandude

Is that not the same as the Amber Rudd thread?

The flying mouse

BrokenArrows wrote: »

I don't think there is anything wrong with this as long as it targets companies which are purposely hiring foreigners for whatever reason and discriminating against British candidates of equal or better qualifications.

I agree with this.

VinLieger

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Don't see an issue sounds like a Great Idea lets do it EU wide. See what companies are playing fairly.

Baffling

CMOTDibbler

The flying mouse wrote: »

I agree with this.

How does this proposal purport to do that?

darkpagandeath

VinLieger wrote: »

Baffling

Don't see how. Would be very nice to see those business types on the news have a light shone into their hiring practice. Especially the ones saying how good immigration is.

steddyeddy

keeponhurling wrote: »

Not sure why they wouldn't already have this information.
To work you need a PPS number (in this case, the UK equivalent) and that is something the government will already have.

When I had to get my national insurance number (NIN) I produced letters from my employers ect only to be told they didn't need them. EU citizens have the right to work anywhere in the EU. I suspect they'll be tightening up those rules.

I think the plan is more to do with employing illegals than anything else, in and around London there are huge numbers of illegal immigrants who are "under the radar" because they are employed by companies who exploit the fact that they're illegal and therefore pay them an illegally low wage cash in hand.

Nothing at all to do with EU citizens who have the right to work there.

Harvey Normal

wes wrote: »

The purpose has nothing to do with knowing about who is, and isn't the country. The stated intention is to "name and shame" companies who are hiring Johnny Foreigner.

Is it? After the UK leaves the EU of course companies will need to provide working visas to whomever they employ outside the UK, as they do now for non-EU employment.

A Dub in Glasgo

Deleted User wrote: »

I think the plan is more to do with employing illegals than anything else, in and around London there are huge numbers of illegal immigrants who are "under the radar" because they are employed by companies who exploit the fact that they're illegal and therefore pay them an illegally low wage cash in hand.

Nothing at all to do with EU citizens who have the right to work there.

If they meant that, they would surely have said 'non-EU' workers instead of 'foreign' workers?

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

If they meant that, they would surely have said 'non-EU' workers instead of 'foreign' workers?

Foreign sounds better than non-EU in the press.

Anyway, it's this comment that makes me think its to do with employing illegals.


http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37561035

Ms Rudd said she wanted to "flush out" companies abusing existing rules and "nudge them into better behaviour".

skywanderer

Britain will soon be an Independent Country and can do whatever it likes having gained its Independence from the EU. Ireland should also leave the EU, these multi-nation organisations serve no purpose other than to erode sovereignty. I also firmly believe Ireland should leave the United Nations and any other organisation that tries to impose their will under the guise of Human Rights or other such Politically Correct nonsense. The UN was setup to preserve world peace but has started to the same way of the league of nations. The UN Security Council is a sick joke and the sooner its abolished the better.

A Dub in Glasgo

skywanderer wrote: »

Britain will soon be an Independent Country and

Britain is an island not a country

wes

Harvey Normal wrote: »

Is it? After the UK leaves the EU of course companies will need to provide working visas to whomever they employ outside the UK, as they do now for non-EU employment.

Yes, it is the stated aim to shame companies.

VinLieger

skywanderer wrote: »

Ireland should also leave the EU, these multi-nation organisations serve no purpose other than to erode sovereignty.

Improved trade through open borders?

I don't think we Irish can get too smug: because most Irish politicians emulate most Irish people and slavishly ape what the English do - in this case embracing myopic race-to-the-bottom neoliberal policies and ideology where "multiculturalism" really means a cheap supply of foreign labour keeping wage costs down/the poor poorer/the rich richer - you can be fairly sure whatever fúckups the British do (and Brexit is the latest) the slaveen Paddies will inflict it on Ireland with time.

Ongar... Balbriggan... when the race riots come to Ireland, too, watch the slaveens look to the British for a solution. Tools. They never learn, and our society suffers because of their addiction to the Anglo-American fundamentalism that is neoliberal market economics.

wes

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think we Irish can get too smug: because most Irish politicians emulate most Irish people and slavishly ape what the English do - in this case embracing myopic race-to-the-bottom neoliberal policies and ideology where "multiculturalism" really means a cheap supply of foreign labour keeping wage costs down/the poor poorer/the rich richer - you can be fairly sure whatever fúckups the British do (and Brexit is the latest) the slaveen Paddies will inflict it on Ireland with time.

Ongar... Balbriggan... when the race riots come to Ireland, too, watch the slaveens look to the British for a solution. Tools. They never learn, and our society suffers because of their addiction to the Anglo-American fundamentalism that is neoliberal market economics.

Well, that a heaping pile of self hatred if I ever saw one.

Nomis21

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think we Irish can get too smug: because most Irish politicians emulate most Irish people and slavishly ape what the English do - in this case embracing myopic race-to-the-bottom neoliberal policies and ideology where "multiculturalism" really means a cheap supply of foreign labour keeping wage costs down/the poor poorer/the rich richer - you can be fairly sure whatever fúckups the British do (and Brexit is the latest) the slaveen Paddies will inflict it on Ireland with time.

Ongar... Balbriggan... when the race riots come to Ireland, too, watch the slaveens look to the British for a solution. Tools. They never learn, and our society suffers because of their addiction to the Anglo-American fundamentalism that is neoliberal market economics.

The British are currently suffering under a right wing Conservative government that lost the Brexit vote due to the electorate not so much voting to leave Europe so much as wanting to give the Conservatives a smack in the face.

They will be out at the next election, but the damage is already done.

wes

wes wrote: »

Well, that a heaping pile of self hatred if I ever saw one.

There's your problem right there: it's "self-hatred" to state the obvious that the policymakers of this state slavishly follow the neoliberal model and that the same problems resultant from the model in Britain will continue to befall this society. The irrational part is denying this and attacking somebody who states the obvious.

Mongfinder General

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't think we Irish can get too smug: because most Irish politicians emulate most Irish people and slavishly ape what the English do - in this case embracing myopic race-to-the-bottom neoliberal policies and ideology where "multiculturalism" really means a cheap supply of foreign labour keeping wage costs down/the poor poorer/the rich richer - you can be fairly sure whatever fúckups the British do (and Brexit is the latest) the slaveen Paddies will inflict it on Ireland with time.

Ongar... Balbriggan... when the race riots come to Ireland, too, watch the slaveens look to the British for a solution. Tools. They never learn, and our society suffers because of their addiction to the Anglo-American fundamentalism that is neoliberal market economics.

Ongar, Balbriggan. What have the folk out there got to complain about?

wes

Deleted User wrote: »

There's your problem right there: it's "self-hatred" to state the obvious that the policymakers of this state slavishly follow the neoliberal model and that the same problems resultant from the model in Britain will continue to befall this society. The irrational part is denying this and attacking somebody who states the obvious.

Look at the language you used. It smacks of self hatred. Just stating the obvious.

Mongfinder General

Mongfinder General wrote: »

Ongar, Balbriggan. What have the folk out there got to complain about?

Walk into a school in those areas and the segregated future is staring you. Indeed ask Irish-born parents where they're sending their children to in those areas. But we can't talk about this. Let's just pretend it's not happening.

wes

wes wrote: »

Look at the language you used. It smacks of self hatred. Just stating the obvious.

Contempt for the right-on dedicated followers of fashion who ape whatever fashion is in vogue in Britain no matter what the societal costs, yes. For the Oirish media in its entirety, yes. Nothing "self" about treating those people and their myopic, superficial, money-obsessed worldview - often dressed up as being in favour of "multiculturalism" where multiculturalism is not some enlightened humanitarianism but rather a desire for cheap foreign labour competing with Irish labour to keep wages low and profits high - with abject contempt.

Mongfinder General

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Walk into a school in those areas and the segregated future is staring you. Indeed ask Irish-born parents where they're sending their children to in those areas. But we can't talk about this. Let's just pretend it's not happening.

White flight. So what. The people living in these areas are not living in poverty. Very few of those frightful council estates that you can find in Darndale or Neilstown can be found in Balbriggan. Coloured and white folk seem pretty content out there Ongar and Balbriggan

wes

Deleted User wrote: »

Contempt for the right-on dedicated followers of fashion who ape whatever fashion is in vogue in Britain no matter what the societal costs, yes. For the Oirish media in its entirety, yes. Nothing "self" about treating those people and their myopic, superficial, money-obsessed worldview - often dressed up as being in favour of "multiculturalism" where multiculturalism is not some enlightened humanitarianism but rather a desire for cheap foreign labour competing with Irish labour to keep wages low and profits high - with abject contempt.

You'd have a point, but I see no rush to follow the British with there most recent Brexit fiasco. IMHO, what your saying smacks of hyperbole.

Mongfinder General

Mongfinder General wrote: »

White flight. So what. The people living in these areas are not living in poverty. Very few of those frightful council estates that you can find in Darndale or Neilstown can be found in Balbriggan. Coloured and white folk seem pretty content out there Ongar and Balbriggan

Poverty is one thing. Poverty that can be attributed - whether fairly or not - to ethnicity and discrimination as it can be when areas are segregated is an entirely different thing with far more serious consequences for society. Perception of discrimination matters so much more, and it self-perpetuates. Ballymun was lovely at first, as was Ballyer - a welcome break from the slums of the city centre. And they were Irish people. Add race/ethnicity to social problems and it becomes something very, very different and ineffably harder to solve.

eviltwin

Deleted User wrote: »

Walk into a school in those areas and the segregated future is staring you. Indeed ask Irish-born parents where they're sending their children to in those areas. But we can't talk about this. Let's just pretend it's not happening.

Have you ever actually been to either of those areas ? You're talking out of your hole.

eviltwin

eviltwin wrote: »

Have you ever actually been to either of those areas ? You're talking out of your hole.

Perhaps you know more than the 2011 census, where over 31% of Balbriggan's population was non-Irish and overwhelmingly present in particular schools, then? Or this 2015 report in The Irish Times? (Schools admission policies have led to segregation)

'In areas where schools are oversubscribed Ms Kavanagh said one school might be made up of 85 per cent or more “newcomer” children while a neighbouring school might have a fraction of that, meaning the “composition is not representing our local communities”.

She said the tendency was for “new schools (to)become schools for newcomer families”, adding that this was already occurring in parts of Ireland including Lucan, Swords, Balbriggan and Galway.
“We don’t want to say we have segregated schools but actually we have”.

Or increasing school segregation in Ongar ('ctrl' 'f' "non-Irish").


Or this, also in 2015:

Census figures raise concerns of ethnic segregation in schools: Some 23 per cent of schools cater for four out of five immigrant children

Ignore it all you like. It doesn't change what's testified by many organisations as still happening, almost ten years after the 95% immigrant Educate Together school in Balbriggan made national and international headlines.

uch

We had the Flight of the Earls about 7 hundred years ago, Maybe the Earls will Come back now, it's cyclical, we'll be grand

HensVassal

BrokenArrows wrote: »

It is pretty amazing that they dont already have this information.

Im all for freedom of travel, but that doesnt mean you shouldnt track who is coming and going from the country.

Passports should be displayed and recorded at all borders.

Why?

HensVassal

BrokenArrows wrote: »

I don't think there is anything wrong with this as long as it targets companies which are purposely hiring foreigners for whatever reason and discriminating against British candidates of equal or better qualifications.

Could you give an example of a "whatever reason"? Why would a company hire a foreigner over an British citizen?

HensVassal

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Its not pointless at all.

A country should absolutely know who is inside its borders at all times.

The current system doesn't keep track of anyone. I live in London and I could hop on a ferry to Ireland tomorrow and the UK government would have no idea that I have left the country.

One of the Major issues with the Brexit campaign was that noone had any ****ing idea how many foreign nations were actually in the country, never mind how many were actively working.
So the people who were campaigning for Brexit could say any number they wanted and there was no evidence back it up or to to counter it.

Someone in Ireland for example could book a ferry under a false name, go to the UK, commit a crime and return on the ferry to Ireland. The UK has no idea you even entered the country and Ireland didnt know you left. There are no border checks on that ferry crossing.

So what?
Why are you adamant that the Government know your whereabouts at all times? Have you become so brainwashed that you now insist on being put under surveillance?

Jesus you'd have a meltdown in Europe. Get in a car in Paris and drive east....then slam on the brakes at the German border causing a 10 mile tailback because you want to inform some gendarme you're leaving the country and some polizei dude you're entering Deutschland. Rinse, repeat at the Austrian and Italian borders.
Get in a train in Brussels and pull the emergency chord at the Dutch border demanding that the Belgians know you've left and that the cloggies are aware of your imminent arrival.

:pac:

HensVassal

The flying mouse wrote: »

I agree with this.

Give me one reason why a company in Britain would give preference to a legal immigrant over a British national?

Chips Lovell

So if I'm reading this correctly, by copying the Brits and leaving the EU, there'll be less blacks in Ballyfermott?

HensVassal

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Don't see how. Would be very nice to see those business types on the news have a light shone into their hiring practice. Especially the ones saying how good immigration is.

What exactly would it tell you about a company who hires legally entitled foreigners?