Unofficial reference request

Bandana boy

A colleague from my past reached out to me this week.
I would have been pretty friendly with this person when we worked together but it is more than 5 years since that was the case and I have not talked to them in at least 3 years.
It turns out that somebody I work with is down to the last two for a job in his company , he is not the hiring manager but works closely with him , and when discussing the hire recognized that he was coming from the company I work with and said he would reach out to me.
So far so everyday, Ireland is quite small and I have had this kind of request and made this request when hiring before.

The person who is up for the job is a slightly more junior(in company seniority, physically older than me) peer of mine , I work quite closely with them and would be very well placed to give a good honest appraisal of them. I would not be on his official reference list.

Here is the trick ,this guy is only Ok at his job but more importantly a complete nightmare to work with , he has caused many problems with members of my team , he is aggressive and narcissistic and when I am working on projects that he is attached to I secretly curse inside as everything will become more contentious and argumentative and meetings will be fraught with tension.
The thought of him leaving brings a smile to my face , I am pretty sure giving my honest opinion will end his prospect in this new company.

Do you lie and help him get the job or tell the truth and torpedo his chance to move on.

_Brian

Tell the truth.

Owryan

My advice, be honest but try n keep it neutral. "He is a good worker/knows the job........but can cause problems if working as a team........

I would be wondering what would he do if he found out you gave him a poor reference?

Then if you give him a good reference and he gets the job but his bad traits are revealed how would that affect any future references you are asked for.

Speedwell

If you lie, and he's hired away, you'll burn your own bridges because, well, they'll find out what a pill the guy is and you'll look like a jerk. This company and your industry are too small to hope your problems disappear into nowhere. Heck, I worked in the Houston oil industry, and half the city worked with each other at one time or another.

"I think he's ready for a new opportunity and we'll all wish him well in it" is probably not a lie.

Ben Gadot

Someone said to me that it's illegal to slate someone if asked to give a reference?

This person said that you can only give a curt yes or no to questions and the employer is meant to take that in itself to be a bad reference.

This bloke is coming from an angle of constantly being asked to give a reference so I'm sure he knows what he's talking about.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Bandana boy wrote: »

A colleague from my past reached out to me this week.
I would have been pretty friendly with this person when we worked together but it is more than 5 years since that was the case and I have not talked to them in at least 3 years.
It turns out that somebody I work with is down to the last two for a job in his company , he is not the hiring manager but works closely with him , and when discussing the hire recognized that he was coming from the company I work with and said he would reach out to me.
So far so everyday, Ireland is quite small and I have had this kind of request and made this request when hiring before.

The person who is up for the job is a slightly more junior(in company seniority, physically older than me) peer of mine , I work quite closely with them and would be very well placed to give a good honest appraisal of them. I would not be on his official reference list.

Here is the trick ,this guy is only Ok at his job but more importantly a complete nightmare to work with , he has caused many problems with members of my team , he is aggressive and narcissistic and when I am working on projects that he is attached to I secretly curse inside as everything will become more contentious and argumentative and meetings will be fraught with tension.
The thought of him leaving brings a smile to my face , I am pretty sure giving my honest opinion will end his prospect in this new company.

Do you lie and help him get the job or tell the truth and torpedo his chance to move on.

Have you ever discussed your concerns with the candidate in question? Sounds a bit passive-aggressive one way or ther other.

Bandana boy

Ben Gadot wrote: »

Someone said to me that it's illegal to slate someone if asked to give a reference?

This person said that you can only give a curt yes or no to questions and the employer is meant to take that in itself to be a bad reference.

This bloke is coming from an angle of constantly being asked to give a reference so I'm sure he knows what he's talking about.

Not sure that is true , but would not factor as this would be unofficial , candidate would never know i was involved

pilly

Oh I would word it very carefully in this case. Because you don't want someone else stuck with someone who you can't stand either. It's a tough one. Could just try saying something like "it depends on whether the job entails working with a team or not"? Maybe the new job doesn't involve teamwork.

Bandana boy

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Have you ever discussed your concerns with the candidate in question? Sounds a bit passive-aggressive one way or ther other.

I have been pretty open with my issues with his behavior .I personally have never had a run in with him but I have witnessed him badgering and belittling members of my team and called him aside to discuss and explain that I find this unacceptable ,but guy is a narcissist and does not seem to ever see a problem with anything he does or the way he talks to people.

I would have had a pretty frank chat with his boss about this a few months back , this may or not have influenced him to go look for a job now , I would certainly not be the only manager at my level who has had issues.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Bandana boy wrote: »

I have been pretty open with my issues with his behavior .I personally have never had a run in with him but I have witnessed him badgering and belittling members of my team and called him aside to discuss and explain thta I find this unacceptable ,but guy is a narcissist and does not seem to ever see a problem with anything he does or the way he talks to people.

I would have had a pretty frank chat with his boss about this a few months back , this may or not have influenced him to go look for a job now , I would certainly not be the only manager at my level who has had issues.

In that case, be honest. He's been advised, he can have no complaints.

intheclouds

Be honest, if he is looking for a job and has been short listed here then he is at least capable of getting that far on his own steam and next time hopefully no one will come looking to you for a reference. This way you dont alienate your buddy who is doing the asking.

Mrs OBumble

Whats more important to you, getting rid of him, or maintaining your integrity with people in his prospective new company?

Speedwell

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Whats more important to you, getting rid of him, or maintaining your integrity with people in his prospective new company?

Bumble, ma'am, with all due respect, he could torpedo his career if he both doesn't let the new company know what the guy's like, and also puts himself in the position of looking like a backstabber. These days it's easy for people to talk, and the OP might get talked about. I don't envy the OP his choice.

o1s1n

Bit of a rock and a hard place situation. Could you not just say that you're not in a position to give him a reference?

In my old company we weren't allowed to give people references, they had to get them from HR. (and HR would literally just say that the person worked here from X date to X date)

Help!!!!

OP just refuse to give the reference. Your old work mate can take it which ever way he likes then

whatnext

I was in a similar situation a while back.
The response I gave was that "that's not really fair of you to ask. It's a lose lose situation for me no matter how I respond"
The guy said that was fair enough and never mentioned it again. In my case the individual was a company asset in every regard and left anyway without my assistance.

Musicman2000

Help!!!! wrote: »

OP just refuse to give the reference. Your old work mate can take it which ever way he likes then

In fairness he dose sound like a pain in the a**e. But tell your mate it has to go threw HR, if it ever got back that you gave him a bad reference or said something negative , you could be opening a massive can of worms for yourself.

endacl

I'd just say he was very competent, and leave it at that. Your pal can read between the lines.

the_syco

Bandana boy wrote: »

Do you lie and help him get the job or tell the truth and torpedo his chance to move on.

Tell the truth, as otherwise what you say may not be trusted by your mate in the future when you're giving a reference to a mate.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Whats more important to you, getting rid of him, or maintaining your integrity with people in his prospective new company?

I'll rephrase that; whats more important to you, getting rid of him, or sabotaging your chances with the people in the other company?

o1s1n wrote: »

In my old company we weren't allowed to give people references, they had to get them from HR. (and HR would literally just say that the person worked here from X date to X date)

But the OP isn't giving him a reference. The guy in the other job is doing an informal check.

=-=

As said, don't burn bridges for some prick you don't like. Personally, I'd ring your mate, and just say that you'd be glad when the guy is gone, as he didn't gel with your team. Your mate should be able to read between the lines.

Lemming

endacl wrote: »

I'd just say he was very competent, and leave it at that. Your pal can read between the lines.

This ^^. Or something like "I can confirm that he has worked here for X dates as Y position" when asked for if he's any good. Your contact shoudl be well able to read between the lines of that, and you haven't lied.

bucketybuck

If its informal why not just say something like,

"To be honest, he's good at his job but me and him don't really get on, we never fell out or anything but I just never clicked with him. Could be just me though, in fairness he seems to work grand where he is and the others don't seem to mind him".

If you can stress that he is a competent worker worth hiring while at the same time adding in that for personal reasons you yourself don't like him, then perhaps you can play it both ways. The guy hiring will know that sometimes personality clashes happen and don't always mean much, and so he might decide that the "competent" part of the reference is the important bit and decide to take the chance. You just have to stress that it is a non work related personality thing between you and him only.

Then if the guy starts acting up in the new job, instead of blaming you for a false reference they will just think, "now I see why Bandana boy didn't get on with him".

bucketybuck

the_syco wrote: »

As said, don't burn bridges for some prick you don't like. Personally, I'd ring your mate, and just say that you'd be glad when the guy is gone, as he didn't gel with your team. Your mate should be able to read between the lines.

Lemming wrote: »

This ^^. Or something like "I can confirm that he has worked here for X dates as Y position" when asked for if he's any good. Your contact shoudl be well able to read between the lines of that, and you haven't lied.

But reading between the lines is no good, reading between the lines means that they realise he is trouble and decide not hire him, leaving the OP stuck with him.

What the OP wants is for them to hire him but not blame the OP if he turns out to be trouble.

Mrs OBumble

Speedwell wrote: »

Bumble, ma'am, with all due respect, he could torpedo his career if he both doesn't let the new company know what the guy's like, and also puts himself in the position of looking like a backstabber. These days it's easy for people to talk, and the OP might get talked about. I don't envy the OP his choice.

Dude, we're saying the same thing!

Maybe the OP is 63, planning to retire next year and doesn't give a rat's a** about his career any more. Maybe s/he's got employee shares in the current company and things that having the troublesome colleague working for a competitor would be a good thing for the current company. If anything like this applies, then saying what it takes for Bad-Apple to get the job would the way to go.

Or maybe s/he's 40 something and does care what the people who work in the other company at the moment think of him/her. In this case, telling the whole truth would be a good idea.

Only the OP can make the call re what applies here.

What's more, because it's an informal discussion not a formal reference - the OP doesn't need to be obtuse about telling the truth. They can just tell it the way it is, and it will never come back to haunt them.

Glass fused light

OP has your current company got a rule about references, my last one had this covered in the handbook, and it was strictly a HR only policy, no written no verbal exceptions allowed.

LionelNashe

Don't give a reference. The guy could accuse you of slander if he finds out, and you can't really trust people to keep their mouths shut. With a bit of luck he's applying for jobs in more than one place and he'll be out of your hair soon enough anyway.

minidazzler

Whatever you do, don't do it through e-mail or anything else like that. A quick informal phone call for a quick informal reference "He's grand, but I wouldn't put my name to him TBH. I can't say much more" There's no slander and how you feel about him gets across perfectly clear.

iLikeWaffles

There is no absolute obligation to give a reference.

Nor is there an obligation, where one is given, that it be full and comprehensive.

But what is provided must be accurate and fair, and must not mislead.

And the provider of the reference has a duty of care to the employee and the prospective employer who will rely on it.


Its illegal to give a bad reference but not illegal to refuse a reference. If it is 5 years since working with him a lot can change in those 5 years.

Skyfarm

is this about you and how your skills ? is it how true you can be to values,morals and company rules? while at the same time being respectful

will you be putting other companies/people at risk from a hot-headed employee who doesn't play by the team rules,will you be truthful and kind by saying what needs to be said?

maybe a direct no,and should a why be asked,direct to hr?

Senecio

Decline to give a reference. Your not on his official list of references so you are not in a position to give one.

otwb1

Tell the truth. Too small a world to sabotage someone elses team, that's why informal calls tend to work better than references - You don't work directly with the guy, seems OK, but a few of your team have had communication problems with him that the new company might need to keep an eye on.

Speedwell

Folks, many of us are offering the Gryffindor solution ("Always tell the truth!" "Sacrifice yourselves for the good of the many!") or the Hufflepuff solution ("I'm not sticking my neck out, I'm just doing my job") or even the Ravenclaw solution ("Tell the disguised truth to the other company, in such a way that the chump thinks he's getting a good reference and I have plausible deniability") to a Slytherin problem ("Can I use this opportunity to induce this other company to take this guy out of an environment where he is harming my team and his own career, and potentially provide him with an environment in which he is a better fit, or at least somebody else's more or less fixable problem"). Just saying.

Teyla Emmagan

Whatever you do don't put it in writing. It sounds like it's an unofficial feel around anyway. If you recommend him they won't thank you. The good news is he's looking around! The next job he goes for you won't get a call in relation to.

I unrecommended someone for a job a while ago. It's a company I used to work for and I want to keep the door open to go back. I knew they wouldn't thank me for hiring a complete dud.

Mrs OBumble

iLikeWaffles wrote: »

Its illegal to give a bad reference

Can you link to anyplace saying this? (Given that the bad factors are true.)

iLikeWaffles wrote: »

If it is 5 years since working with him a lot can change in those 5 years.

Where did you get the idea that the OP is not working with the reference-subject now?





Some posters here appear clueless about how unofficial checking works. If the OP refuses to say anything, it will do as much damage to their reputation with people in the other company as giving a good reference would. And of course it won't be in writing - and likely nothing that the OP says will be written down at the other end either.

iLikeWaffles

Bandana boy wrote: »

A colleague from my past reached out to me this week.
I would have been pretty friendly with this person when we worked together but it is more than 5 years since that was the case and I have not talked to them in at least 3 years.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Can you link to anyplace saying this? (Given that the bad factors are true.)


Where did you get the idea that the OP is not working with the reference-subject now?


Some posters here appear clueless about how unofficial checking works. If the OP refuses to say anything, it will do as much damage to their reputation with people in the other company as giving a good reference would. And of course it won't be in writing - and likely nothing that the OP says will be written down at the other end either.

Defanmation Act - 2009

Defanmation: the action of damaging the good reputation of someone; slander or libel. Could be held true for your post too.

Speedwell

iLikeWaffles wrote: »

Defanmation Act - 2009

Defanmation: the action of damaging the good reputation of someone; slander or libel. Could be held true for your post too.

The person he hasn't worked with for 5 years was the one requesting the reference. The person he works with now is the one about whom the reference was requested.

An affirmative defense to a charge of either slander or libel is that the statement is true.

moc moc a moc

Another vote here for declining to comment. This is not your responsibility, and could easily bite you later on if the wrong people found out (e.g. the job candidate, or even your own boss for giving references behind their back).

iLikeWaffles

Speedwell wrote: »

The person he hasn't worked with for 5 years was the one requesting the reference. The person he works with now is the one about whom the reference was requested.

An affirmative defense to a charge of either slander or libel is that the statement is true.

A reference is a reference doesn't matter if it official or unofficial. If the person looking for the reference is looking for it in a capacity of good faith in the OP then it is being relied upon for getting the job. If its down to the last two then the only fair thing to do is refuse to give a good word to the employer which is what it sounds like the person is looking for. Or the OP can lie to the person looking for the good word and say that he put the word in for him and not actually put the good word in.

Its a tricky situation for the OP to be in I would not like to be in that position myself.

I am fully aware of the OP predicament thank you.

Turtle_

I'd be inclined to just say "Look, he's technically competent and I don't have a problem with the work he produces, but I can't give more of a reference - we've never clicked so I think it's best for everyone if you request an official reference from one of his named referees."

You aren't lying, you are giving him credit for being a technically competent worker, but you're also flagging that there might be personality problems but maybe they're down to a clash between the two of you.

Mrs OBumble

iLikeWaffles wrote: »

Or the OP can lie to the person looking for the good word and say that he put the word in for him and not actually put the good word in.

Ahh, no, that's not how it works at all.

The person who contacted the OP is not the job candidate.

Instead, it is a previous colleague from 5 years ago, who is contemplating hiring the job-candidate.

The job-candidate has no idea that the OP has been contacted and has not nominated the OP as a referee. The job-candidate has no way of knowing that the OP knows they are even job-hunting.

The only tricky part of this is for the OP to decide how much they value their reputation with the people who current work at the other company (remember, there's no telling where they might appear in the OP's future).

iLikeWaffles

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Ahh, no, that's not how it works at all.

The person who contacted the OP is not the job candidate.

Instead, it is a previous colleague from 5 years ago, who is contemplating hiring the job-candidate.

The job-candidate has no idea that the OP has been contacted and has not nominated the OP as a referee. The job-candidate has no way of knowing that the OP knows they are even job-hunting.

The only tricky part of this is for the OP to decide how much they value their reputation with the people who current work at the other company (remember, there's no telling where they might appear in the OP's future).

Like I said I am fully aware of the OP predicament thank you. You done now?

Eoin

Bandana boy wrote: »

Do you lie and help him get the job or tell the truth and torpedo his chance to move on.

I think I'd have to be honest and say I'd rather not say anything about him. Or say something like Turtle_ suggested.

Off topic, but I think it's quite poor form of your ex-colleague to have told you that the guy is up for a job in his company. You've not spoken in 3 years so he has no idea what kind of position that could have put the candidate in.

Purple Mountain

I would agree with Eoin. Its completely bad form of your ex colleage to put you in that position. The guy you currently work with obviously doesnt want anyone in current job knowing hes looking elsewhere-who does! In fairness you dont owe an ex colleage whom you havent spoken with in three years anything.
I got impression from OP post that s/he isnt this guys direct manager so Id politely pass it off and say you are not in a position to give a reference- however informal, as anything like that should come from management or HR (if candidate is using OPs company as referee). Id even be quoting those lines if this guy was best thing since sliced bread because it could spell trouble with HR / other management if they find out.

BettePorter

Just say ' I don't have a lot of dealings with him to be honest so you're asking the wrong person 'and leave it at that. You haven't spoken to your ex colleague in 3 years and you've no authority to give ref anyway. An unofficial bad ref could grow legs and suddenly you're the bad guy in a situ you don't need to be in! In my experience the messenger always gets shot!

Heart Break Kid

Be nuetral if youve nothing nice to say dont say it. If asked by the hiring manager say it was such a long time ago, you wouldnt remember much. Dont say anything negative but dont say anything positive unless its true.

On a side note, it appears you got on well with hm, so he couldnt of been that bad.

Bandana boy

I went with a vague version of the truth.
Gave no details but said I could not recommend him as a hire .
Hopefully he finds something else as if I am sitting across from him in 3 months time dealing with another issue I know I will regret this.

Not sure I will require good faith from my former colleague but he was a good guy when I worked with him and steering him wrong was the wrong approach.

Re defamation , It will not see light of day that I gave this reference but even if it did , I gave not detail other than I would not recommend him as a hire, so no case for defamation.

A side note , this kind of unofficial reference is very usual in Ireland especially when you work in specific fields for multiple years. It is interesting the amount of people who seemed shocked that people other than who you supply will be tapped up for information.

I have been tapped up multiple times before , but before I was either happy to recommend or there was no downside in being honest .

gandalf

If it were me I would decline to give a reference and say that your company is very strict about that sort of thing given issues in the past. If this guy is a friend he shouldn't push you any more to validate this guy.

Bandana boy

gandalf wrote: »

If it were me I would decline to give a reference and say that your company is very strict about that sort of thing given issues in the past. If this guy is a friend he shouldn't push you any more to validate this guy.

In this scenario that is essentially the exact same as giving a bad reference.

lawred2

Bandana boy wrote: »

A colleague from my past reached out to me this week.
I would have been pretty friendly with this person when we worked together but it is more than 5 years since that was the case and I have not talked to them in at least 3 years.
It turns out that somebody I work with is down to the last two for a job in his company , he is not the hiring manager but works closely with him , and when discussing the hire recognized that he was coming from the company I work with and said he would reach out to me.
So far so everyday, Ireland is quite small and I have had this kind of request and made this request when hiring before.

The person who is up for the job is a slightly more junior(in company seniority, physically older than me) peer of mine , I work quite closely with them and would be very well placed to give a good honest appraisal of them. I would not be on his official reference list.

Here is the trick ,this guy is only Ok at his job but more importantly a complete nightmare to work with , he has caused many problems with members of my team , he is aggressive and narcissistic and when I am working on projects that he is attached to I secretly curse inside as everything will become more contentious and argumentative and meetings will be fraught with tension.
The thought of him leaving brings a smile to my face , I am pretty sure giving my honest opinion will end his prospect in this new company.

Do you lie and help him get the job or tell the truth and torpedo his chance to move on.

If you are not named as a reference - you don't give a reference. That's it.

lawred2

Bandana boy wrote: »

In this scenario that is essentially the exact same as giving a bad reference.

If that's the conclusion that's drawn so be it. But it didn't come from you.

Bandana boy

lawred2 wrote: »

If you are not named as a reference - you don't give a reference. That's it.

Would you take that tact if a friend wanted an opinion on a tradesman you used ?

lawred2

Bandana boy wrote: »

Would you take that tact if a friend wanted an opinion on a tradesman you used ?

That's not the same situation.

You give a bad reference about this guy - he ends up not getting the job and ergo remains your colleague.. Some crack then if he then gets wind of your friendly advice.

Also; you are likely opening yourself to a disciplinary with HR if they get wind that you've been providing unauthorised references for co-workers.

Can't for the life understand why someone would willingly compromise themselves in such a way.

It's also fundamentally none of your business.