Door to door sellers

jenny smith

I see as lot of people going door to door selling things like bed linen etc. No one ever seems to buy from them where i am. I wondered if they could be just checking who is home for future robberies etc. I wondered if the garda should be made aware of them, not a complaint as they have not done anything but it seems strange to me going door to door when no one ever buys

ezra_

As someone who works in sales (but not field sales, thank god) you learn quickly that no one ever wants to buy from you.

Not saying you are wrong, but rejection (and impolite rejection at that) is the most common response when you pitch someone.

If you see the same people coming back selling different things, you might want to call the cops

jenny smith

ezra_ wrote: »

As someone who works in sales (but not field sales, thank god) you learn quickly that no one ever wants to buy from you.

Not saying you are wrong, but rejection (and impolite rejection at that) is the most common response when you pitch someone.

If you see the same people coming back selling different things, you might want to call the cops

I would be more worried about impolite persistence as in ringing the bell when there is a no sales notice

brian_t

jenny smith wrote: »

I would be more worried about impolite persistence as in ringing the bell when there is a no sales notice

There was a thread here a while ago on the legal status of "a no sales notice".

I don't think it's anything more than a polite request that can be ignored.

Obviously your chances of getting a sale are probably zero though but sure God loves a trier.

freshpopcorn

All you can do really is ring the Gardai or if theirs a neighbour watch group in your area. Sometimes sales people are genuine and others they aren't. I've heard of people going around and pretending to be from well known services as well!

Discodog

ezra_ wrote: »

As someone who works in sales (but not field sales, thank god) you learn quickly that no one ever wants to buy from you.

Not saying you are wrong, but rejection (and impolite rejection at that) is the most common response when you pitch someone.

If you see the same people coming back selling different things, you might want to call the cops

Really ? I sold for years & I would say that all my customers wanted to buy from me because I answered their needs. Cold calling to private homes happens because some do buy. These guys know that they will get rejected most of the time but a few will buy.

There are also a group of people who are willing the buy the "no questions asked" bargain.

ezra_

Discodog wrote: »

Really ? I sold for years & I would say that all my customers wanted to buy from me because I answered their needs. Cold calling to private homes happens because some do buy. These guys know that they will get rejected most of the time but a few will buy.

There are also a group of people who are willing the buy the "no questions asked" bargain.

You were closing more than 1 in 10 door to door sales?!

Ted111

jenny smith wrote: »

I see as lot of people going door to door selling things like bed linen etc. No one ever seems to buy from them where i am. I wondered if they could be just checking who is home for future robberies etc. I wondered if the garda should be made aware of them, not a complaint as they have not done anything but it seems strange to me going door to door when no one ever buys

A better question is why isn't this activity illegal.
People's homes are not a market place. It should be made a criminal offence to attempt to conduct business unsolicited at any residential address.
The same goes for residential phone lines.

ezra_

Ted111 wrote: »

A better question is why isn't this activity illegal.
People's homes are not a market place. It should be made a criminal offence to attempt to conduct business unsolicited at any residential address.
The same goes for residential phone lines.

Don't answer the door then.
Problem solved.

Discodog

ezra_ wrote: »

You were closing more than 1 in 10 door to door sales?!

No :eek: I never sold door to door

Ted111

ezra_ wrote: »

Don't answer the door then.
Problem solved.

Did I say someone knocked on my door?

jenny smith

Ted111 wrote: »

A better question is why isn't this activity illegal.
People's homes are not a market place. It should be made a criminal offence to attempt to conduct business unsolicited at any residential address.
The same goes for residential phone lines.

I agree ,should be illegal to ignore a notice anyway https://www.newcastle.gov.uk/business/trading-standards/campaigns/no-cold-calling-zones

But I was only wondering why people would go around when no one buys and if they are just checking houses out

Kings Inns or bust

A good rule of thumb is a 1% hit rate. You simply alter you Mark up to make this profitable. People have to make a living and there is sufficient protection, in my view, in current legislation. Your view may differ and the great thing about a democracy is you can effect change!

Get on to your local TD, even a counciler may be able to assist at a local level. Community Garda involvement is also an option. In Thames Valley (my old stomping grounds) there is a pack you can get from the police with signs and information on what to do.

Any responce beyond 'I'm terribly sorry' when challenged about an obvious sign on the front door is arguably harrasment and you've every right to call the guards if you feel threatened.

On mere inconvenience though, one merely needs to vote with ones feet.

jenny smith

Kings Inns or bust wrote: »

A good rule of thumb is a 1% hit rate. You simply alter you Mark up to make this profitable. People have to make a living and there is sufficient protection, in my view, in current legislation. Your view may differ and the great thing about a democracy is you can effect change!

Get on to your local TD, even a counciler may be able to assist at a local level. Community Garda involvement is also an option. In Thames Valley (my old stomping grounds) there is a pack you can get from the police with signs and information on what to do.

Any responce beyond 'I'm terribly sorry' when challenged about an obvious sign on the front door is arguably harrasment and you've every right to call the guards if you feel threatened.

On mere inconvenience though, one merely needs to vote with ones feet.

Doesn't it have to be ongoing to be harrassment.? The link i gave is the same or similar to the Thames Valley pack

I am talking about people going around with things like sets of kitchenware or bed linen, some have pillows so it is not a professional set up I would say. I imagine professional like the people selling broadband do make a living as i see people who buy but have never - not even once- seen anyone buying these house wares

bladespin

Wouldn't that same logic apply to internet and tv sales/advertising?

ezra_

Kings Inns or bust wrote: »

Any responce beyond 'I'm terribly sorry' when challenged about an obvious sign on the front door is arguably harrasment and you've every right to call the guards if you feel threatened.

harassment requires repetition surely

freshpopcorn

jenny smith wrote: »

I am talking about people going around with things like sets of kitchenware or bed linen, some have pillows so it is not a professional set up I would say. I imagine professional like the people selling broadband do make a living as i see people who buy but have never - not even once- seen anyone buying these house wares

In my experience these people often have stalls in markets or car boot sales and during the week when things a quite they often just chance their arm and hope for the best. I've known people to buy from them and the sales people call to them when their in the area they just take a chance of knocking around.
I've had relatives selling broadband/TV and in generally they've nearly always left after a short time due to it being hard to make money. Most people I know generally just say No to people selling broadband/electricity at door and they might throw somebody a few euros for a set of knives or a duvet!

Kings Inns or bust

ezra_ wrote: »

harassment requires repetition surely

GM228 made me go and back up my assertions recently, it involved much actual reading and posting of factual information, it actually made me quite ill and I've not fully recovered. If you're going to make me do the same that's fine but just beware I was once weak man.

My wife informs me once a week is enough for any man.

Owing to the amount of reading you had to do for the setup of a very old Carry On film joke I'll dig out the case law - eventually, but there is a decision on this that a single incidence can constitute harassment - odd and as counterintuitive as that is.

ohnonotgmail

ezra_ wrote: »

harassment requires repetition surely

You might reasonably think so but the definition of harassment is in Section 10 of the Non Fatal Offences against the person Act 1997

Section 10 provides that Any person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, by any means including by use of the telephone, harasses another by persistently following, watching, pestering, besetting or communicating with him or her, shall be guilty of an offence.

(2) For the purposes of this section a person harasses another where—

(a) he or she, by his or her acts intentionally or recklessly, seriously interferes with the other's peace and privacy or causes alarm, distress or harm to the other, and

(b) his or her acts are such that a reasonable person would realise that the acts would seriously interfere with the other's peace and privacy or cause alarm, distress or harm to the other.

I dont see anything that requires repetition. On the other hand i cant see how somebody calling to your door to sell something can meet the requirements above.

Kings Inns or bust

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

You might reasonably think so but the definition of harassment is in Section 10 of the Non Fatal Offences against the person Act 1997

Section 10 provides that Any person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, by any means including by use of the telephone, harasses another by persistently following, watching, pestering, besetting or communicating with him or her, shall be guilty of an offence.

(2) For the purposes of this section a person harasses another where—

(a) he or she, by his or her acts intentionally or recklessly, seriously interferes with the other's peace and privacy or causes alarm, distress or harm to the other, and

(b) his or her acts are such that a reasonable person would realise that the acts would seriously interfere with the other's peace and privacy or cause alarm, distress or harm to the other.

I dont see anything that requires repetition. On the other hand i cant see how somebody calling to your door to sell something can meet the requirements above.

IIRC the distress or alarm is this curiously Irish invention of a subjective test with an objective element. Therefore if the 'victim' says they've been distressed it's up to the jury/judge to decide whether or not that is credible given the surrounding circumstances.

You're most likely correct, but I'd not bet that on a DC Judge who's had callers knocking for the last few days looking to tarmac the drive. Subsection (b) is why I mentioned a conspicuous sign.

ezra_

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

You might reasonably think so but the definition of harassment is in Section 10 of the Non Fatal Offences against the person Act 1997

Section 10 provides that Any person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, by any means including by use of the telephone, harasses another by persistently following, watching, pestering, besetting or communicating with him or her, shall be guilty of an offence.

(2) For the purposes of this section a person harasses another where—

(a) he or she, by his or her acts intentionally or recklessly, seriously interferes with the other's peace and privacy or causes alarm, distress or harm to the other, and

(b) his or her acts are such that a reasonable person would realise that the acts would seriously interfere with the other's peace and privacy or cause alarm, distress or harm to the other.

I dont see anything that requires repetition. On the other hand i cant see how somebody calling to your door to sell something can meet the requirements above.

Persistent and the plural of acts would suggest a single action does not qualify.

GM228

ezra_ wrote: »

Persistent and the plural of acts would suggest a single action does not qualify.

As noted by Kings Inn there is case law to indicate one incident can amount to harassment.

Kings Inns or bust wrote: »

GM228 made me go and back up my assertions recently

<snip>

there is a decision on this that a single incidence can constitute harassment - odd and as counterintuitive as that is.

I'll save you having to back up your assertion this time , you are correct!

The High Court has indicated that persistant is not dependant on a specific number of incidents or a time frame within which those incidents must have occurred, one unambiguous continuous act may amount to harassment as per Mr. Justice McCarthy in DPP vs Lynch [2010] 3 IR 434.

Kings Inns or bust wrote: »

IIRC the distress or alarm is this curiously Irish invention of a subjective test with an objective element. Therefore if the 'victim' says they've been distressed it's up to the jury/judge to decide whether or not that is credible given the surrounding circumstances.

I'm open to correction, but I believe the HC held it's a purely objective test owing to Section 10(b):-

his or her acts are such that a reasonable person would realise that the acts would seriously interfere with the other's peace and privacy or cause alarm, distress or harm to the other.

Phoebas

ezra_ wrote: »

Persistent and the plural of acts would suggest a single action does not qualify.

I don't think the word 'acts' necessarily implies multiple, distinct actions. Its just the use of the verb. An actor acts.

A single sales call can be persistent (and could easily be viewed as harassment).

> Would you be interested in changing your electricity package?
< No thanks.
> Who is your current provider?
< I'm not interested thanks.
> Do you not realise you could save money?
< I'm not interested.
> Let me tell you how you could save ....
< I'm not wanting to change.
> Why would you not want my offer. I can save...
< Please leave me alone.
> Do you enjoy wasting money, because with my package ....
< I told you I'm not interested.
> That's because you don't understand this great deal. You get an immediate discount of....

ezra_

Phoebas wrote: »

I don't think the word 'acts' necessarily implies multiple, distinct actions. Its just the use of the verb. An actor acts.

A single sales call can be persistent (and could easily be viewed as harassment).

> Would you be interested in changing your electricity package?
< No thanks.
> Who is your current provider?
< I'm not interested thanks.
> Do you not realise you could save money?
< I'm not interested.
> Let me tell you how you could save ....
< I'm not wanting to change.
> Why would you not want my offer. I can save...
< Please leave me alone.
> Do you enjoy wasting money, because with my package ....
< I told you I'm not interested.
> That's because you don't understand this great deal. You get an immediate discount of....

I agree - the plurality doesn't necessarily have to related to the number of incidents and your example is good.

if the example went:

>Hello, would you like to buy cillit bang?
<No thank you, and I don't want you to visit me again as it distresses me.
>OK, sorry about that. Cheery-bye

You would not have a case for harassment. If the seller refused to leave, you might have grounds for it though.

Sue Pa Key Pa

They are on a scouting mission, pure and simple. I always bring the dog with me when answering it to them. He's a friendly placid thing but I say 'rabbits' to him before I open the door and he goes berserk barking and trying to get out. They don't like that.

goz83

ezra_ wrote: »

You were closing more than 1 in 10 door to door sales?!

I certainly did when I was doing d2d sales years ago. Occasionally I call into businesses these days selling websites and the hit rate is even better.

jenny smith wrote: »

But I was only wondering why people would go around when no one buys and if they are just checking houses out

But they do buy these things. I have seen it myself, though I have never sold physical products at a door. If they were scouting an area to plan burglaries, then they are idiots to be hauling around bulky items, when they could just as easily get away with carrying a few birthday cards.

Kings Inns or bust wrote: »

A good rule of thumb is a 1% hit rate. You simply alter you Mark up to make this profitable.

Would need to be high value items at 1%. Realistically, most products/services sold need a hit rate of 10% if any sort of basic living standard is to be achieved. You might get 60-70 answers a day (depending on location) and at an average of maybe €15 per sale, you need 10% hit rate to survive.

Kings Inns or bust

You reckon the poor bastards doing this are aiming for a decent standard?

Most D2D aren't the employed by a company kind - who I simply won't give the time of day to, they're lads trying to make a few bob. Large companies engaged in D2D earn a place on my 'never buying anything from' list.

That said I don't begrudge the guys knocking on my door looking to do (rather obviously required) maitanance on the gutters, drive, lawn. I do object though to a company with a seven figure marketing spend thinking I need some poorly paid grunt knocking at my door on the off chance I wasn't aware I could get electricity from another provider. As indicated though of course they do it becuase it works.

goz83

Kings Inns or bust wrote: »

You reckon the poor bastards doing this are aiming for a decent standard?

Most D2D aren't the employed by a company kind - who I simply won't give the time of day to, they're lads trying to make a few bob. Large companies engaged in D2D earn a place on my 'never buying anything from' list.

That said I don't begrudge the guys knocking on my door looking to do (rather obviously required) maitanance on the gutters, drive, lawn. I do object though to a company with a seven figure marketing spend thinking I need some poorly paid grunt knocking at my door on the off chance I wasn't aware I could get electricity from another provider. As indicated though of course they do it becuase it works.

I can only give my own experience on this. You'd be amazed at how many people don't (or at least didn't between 2003-2006) know about cheaper alternatives. Hell, when I was selling Esat BT, most people still though Eircom was an Irish company. They didn't know that they would keep their number and just get cheaper calls. I think I was getting €18 per sale, averaging 6 per day (6 days a week), grossing circa €650pw...but the hours were long and it was hard earned. For a few months, I selling ADT alarms contracts, earning €160 per sale, averaging 3 per day, so grossing circa €2800pw.....but tbf, there are few selling these types of products/services. It's possible to earn a decent living from it and I have seen lads that have been in the game for years and they drive nice cars and wear nice suits.

It's not for everyone, but for me, I learned alot from it. I rarely ran into people I would genuinely think were rude, but I was always polite and I knew when people were busy and/or stressed, so I would just tell them I would call back, rather than try to sell. It's a tough job and I am always nice to the lads calling to my door. If buying something like cheaper electric/gas, I send them away for an hour, sit down, do my sums and if cheaper, I buy. Sometimes it's not cheaper, so I don't buy.

Unless the caller is rude/inconsiderate, there is no need for the person answering the door to be.

And on the other service side, regarding gutters and the like, I have had 3 experiences and all have been crappy jobs, which left me once with a blocked down pipe, once with moss and dirt all over my car and drive and once where the chap didn't even clean the feckin gutter. He went up with an empty bucket and came down with an empty bucket and he left with empty pockets :rolleyes:

The BIL does the windows and I have no lawn to speak of. I do my own power washing when I can....therapeutic stuff actually.

bmwguy

Selling financial services such as life assurance, pensions and investments door to door is now illegal. Used to be the lifeblood of the industry but the wrong people were doing it, loads didn't have a clue. Regulated now and the way approaches are allowed to be made changed. Everyone must be qualified to talk about financial services now. Tv and utility providers still do it as well as some charities, very annoying sometimes.

jenny smith

bmwguy wrote: »

Selling financial services such as life assurance, pensions and investments door to door is now illegal. Used to be the lifeblood of the industry but the wrong people were doing it, loads didn't have a clue. Regulated now and the way approaches are allowed to be made changed. Everyone must be qualified to talk about financial services now. Tv and utility providers still do it as well as some charities, very annoying sometimes.

A step in the right direction, hopefully will extend to all, at least who ignore notices.

jenny smith

goz83 wrote: »

I certainly did when I was doing d2d sales years ago. Occasionally I call into businesses these days selling websites and the hit rate is even better.



But they do buy these things. I have seen it myself, though I have never sold physical products at a door. If they were scouting an area to plan burglaries, then they are idiots to be hauling around bulky items, when they could just as easily get away with carrying a few birthday cards.



Would need to be high value items at 1%. Realistically, most products/services sold need a hit rate of 10% if any sort of basic living standard is to be achieved. You might get 60-70 answers a day (depending on location) and at an average of maybe €15 per sale, you need 10% hit rate to survive.

you have to look the part. people might be suspicious of birthday card sellers.

jenny smith

ezra_ wrote: »

harassment requires repetition surely

http://www.lawreform.ie/_fileupload/Issues%20Papers/Issues%20Paper%20%20Domestic%20Violence%20-%20Harassment.pdf

2.04 at above

jenny smith

freshpopcorn wrote: »

In my experience these people often have stalls in markets or car boot sales and during the week when things a quite they often just chance their arm and hope for the best. I've known people to buy from them and the sales people call to them when their in the area they just take a chance of knocking around.
I've had relatives selling broadband/TV and in generally they've nearly always left after a short time due to it being hard to make money. Most people I know generally just say No to people selling broadband/electricity at door and they might throw somebody a few euros for a set of knives or a duvet!

That makes sense - did not know that

Kings Inns or bust

@goz83, I understand where you're coming from. The issue is how it's managed. I worked in sales for many years and recently have found myself treading water, for hopefully only a few months, in what until now I thought was a fairly ethical company selling a fairly ubiquitous product.

As the pressure starts getting to people more and more shenanigans start to happen, one company I'm well aware of was using a door-to-door sales company and stopped after the tactics being used hit national headlines. I'd like to believe the business didn't know what it's contractors were doing, but I have serious doubts they were that myopic. My issue is further compounded by the fact that these businesses generally have large marketing budgets - really if the message has not been heard by that point, I don't think knocking on someone's door is the way to go. I fully realise opinions differ, however I agree, manners cost nothing.

foggy_lad

jenny smith wrote: »

I see as lot of people going door to door selling things like bed linen etc. No one ever seems to buy from them where i am. I wondered if they could be just checking who is home for future robberies etc. I wondered if the garda should be made aware of them, not a complaint as they have not done anything but it seems strange to me going door to door when no one ever buys

Trading standards in the UK have been acting against groups of organised people for a number of years who go door to door offering their services to elderly and infirm people who they usually charge massive fees for unnecessary and often poorly completed work.

When they searched these people and their caravans and dwellings they found several very detailed notebooks compiled for several areas around the UK starting at town level and giving details about people in streets who were old, Senile, forgetful, disabled, Handicapped, Spastic(their word), retard(again their word) and giving as much detail as they could about the house and who might be living there etc

They believe that these notebooks had been compiled by some members of the groups going door to door selling stuff like bedding, duvets, pillows and professional chefs knives etc which was just cheap rubbish but it didn't matter if they sold anything or not as the real money was to be had later.