PV panels?

mrawkward

Suggestions please on PV


I have a 1500 sqft 1970's bungalow in south county Dublin. it has been upgraded to double glazing ( huge windows) modern external sealed doors, Full external insulation. 2nd layer of attic insulation added. Brand new heating system with all new pipes up the walls and plumbed through the attic, high efficiency rads plus a Mitsubish AWS heat pump with plc control, special tank etc etc. LED/low energy lighting, Quooker boiling water tap. BER now B2. I am availing of Taxback scheme, EI carbon credits and SEI grants!


One roof elevation is 125deg SE facing @ approx 30 deg pitch and is about 80 M2. No light obstruction or roof clutter. Basic research says that is near ideal.


Got this today from Electric Ireland via email https://www.electricireland.ie/solarPV?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=SRV+-+0816+-+SolarPV+CostSavings+Reminder

Having read some other threads this offer may not be great value compared to what the regular commercial market could offer. I think I would be prepared to spend about €5K, anyone any ideas as to what I could achieve with this?

Thanks

quentingargan

Hmm. Depends a bit on the roof and access, but a bungalow should be easier than most.

Ballpark, the hardware for a 3kw system would set you back €3,300 or so excl. VAT. I reckon including installation, you'd have change out of your five grand. If you can do the roof work yourself, or put this onto your taxback scheme, you could probably get up to 4kw for your five grand.

rathbaner

Would €20k make a qualitative difference to what you could get? (Putting panels on the ground south facing) or would it just be 4 times this solution?

quentingargan

rathbaner wrote: »

Would €20k make a qualitative difference to what you could get? (Putting panels on the ground south facing) or would it just be 4 times this solution?

Problem is you can't connect more than about 6kw on a domestic install unless you happen to have 3 phase, and even then, going over 11kw becomes a nightmare.

Ground mounting isn't always the cheapest - cheapest is a shed roof. I think ground mount would be a bit more expensive than slate / tile roof mounting.

rathbaner

Thanks for the superfast reply. The complexity of thsis never fails to stump me!! And anyway my shed's pitched roof faces East-West and is overshadowed by trees.

quentingargan

quentingargan wrote: »

Problem is you can't connect more than about 6kw on a domestic install

What's to stop you hanging 7kW on the East and 7kW on the West then limiting the inverter export to 6kW?

mrawkward

OP here. A year on and my heat pump has consumed just under 4000 Kwh and delivered just over 10,000 Kwh in 2017 to date (thermostat set @21C). My average energy bills, I am now all electric, have fallen from €300/month to €100/month but with much improved comfort levels.
I am still keen to add some solar PV and was looking at a 3Kw installation like these http://www.buypvdirect.co.uk/PV_Packs?page=2. I am in the commercial property sector so have my own crew to do the physical and electrical installation, however, I am not at all sure how to select the appropriate quality/brand equipment. Advice appreciated

quentingargan

mrawkward wrote: »

...
I am still keen to add some solar PV and was looking at a 3Kw installation like these http://www.buypvdirect.co.uk/PV_Packs?page=2. I am in the commercial property sector so have my own crew to do the physical and electrical installation, however, I am not at all sure how to select the appropriate quality/brand equipment. Advice appreciated

There is better value available in Ireland. Their product is 250W modules which are now quite old-hat and usually discounted. Most quality manufacturers are on 275w or above.

mrawkward

I have now selected an Irish based kit supplier and hope to install in Jan 18.

unkel

Would you keep us updated, mrawkward? There's a lot of other people on here (myself included) interested in installing PV. Thinking of having it done some time this summer maybe. Would like to know the total cost of the install and the details of the parts used, etc.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

There's a lot of other people on here (myself included) interested in installing PV. Thinking of having it done some time this summer maybe.

Welcome to the Light Side.

noel100

mrawkward wrote:

Having read some other threads this offer may not be great value compared to what the regular commercial market could offer. I think I would be prepared to spend about €5K, anyone any ideas as to what I could achieve with this?

If you want great price on solar open segen.co.uk account. I've no affiliation with them. Example 3.8kw 275watt Canadian solar panels + inverter
1.819,77euro couple hundred euro for racking.

noel100

JA Solar 300W Mono Percium SK Silver FramePart No: JAM6-K-60-300-PR-SV

46.9cents a watt

rolion

I friendly advice to contact a local supplier and get the "know-how" before jumping in to cents per Watts !

That cent or cents can be so easily lost if you ignore the factors in setting up the panels, position, angles, cabling type,inverter type and smart meter and not lastly, a safe physical instalaltion after recent scary winds.
Also,that cent per Kw is only online but please bear the cost of logistics,supplying and storing,aranging the installer to sync with your panels arrivals,with your roof mounting kit,with your electrician and with the ESB meter application.

The suppliers dont make the fat profit off the price of the kit but rather from organising and installing the whole setup as a single process that sometime cannot be understod by the home user reading boards.ie
Been there myself...

Good luck !

Mad Benny

Rolion\quentingargan,

I've read many of your posts. How long does it take approximately for PV to pay for itself? I've heard anything from 7 years to over 25 years. I understand the panels are expected to last for 25 years and the cost of PV has come down recently.

quentingargan

Mad Benny wrote: »

Rolion\quentingargan,

I've read many of your posts. How long does it take approximately for PV to pay for itself? I've heard anything from 7 years to over 25 years. I understand the panels are expected to last for 25 years and the cost of PV has come down recently.

That's a difficult question to answer - it really depends on how much of the electricity is used (and displacing power at the retail price) as opposed to being re-directed to hot water which could otherwise have been heated using cheaper energy from oil or gas.

It also depends on the installation cost. For example, either newbuild or putting it on a galvanised roof shed as DIY project would be a lot cheaper than scaffolding and ripping slates etc.

Things would be a lot more clear-cut if there was an appropriate payment for surplus power exported.

But 7 years is in the realm of double-glazed sales merchants. If you have a business that can use all the power produced, you may get to 9 or 10 years payback. Most domestic retrofit installations are a lot longer and reach a bit into the area of environmental philanthropy if I am being completely honest.

Nothing wrong with environmental philanthropy. Even if payback was 15 or 20 years, thats cheaper than bank interest rates and for anyone concerned with climate change is something good you can do that washes its face eventually

listermint

Plus when the Zombies come, your house will be laughing at everyone else.

rolion

Mad Benny wrote: »

Rolion\quentingargan,

I've read many of your posts. How long does it take approximately for PV to pay for itself? I've heard anything from 7 years to over 25 years. I understand the panels are expected to last for 25 years and the cost of PV has come down recently.

As Quentin said,cannot add too much apart of what he said.

Personal,i didnt do it for numbers.
Wth a low TCO, RoI is not going to be your friend here.
I generated 4Mw past year and the supplier bill said i consumed 3.8Mw.

Issue is how to maximise the output.
With FiT will ever never comes, keep your eye on "PV storage" as that will be the next big "whoah" point in the developing of PVs systems.

Either way,whatever you feel is right for you and those around you !

Shefwedfan

noel100 wrote: »

If you want great price on solar open segen.co.uk account. I've no affiliation with them. Example 3.8kw 275watt Canadian solar panels + inverter
1.819,77euro couple hundred euro for racking.

Sorry to jump on thread, do these guys install in Ireland?

noel100

Sorry they are a wholesaler. Couple hundred euro for delivery.
Depends if you can carry out work your self. Or hire someone.
Still cheaper than getting some of the firm's here to do supply & install

metricspaces

Mad Benny wrote: »

Rolion\quentingargan,

I've read many of your posts. How long does it take approximately for PV to pay for itself? I've heard anything from 7 years to over 25 years. I understand the panels are expected to last for 25 years and the cost of PV has come down recently.

I was asking the same question before and my thoughts are here https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105912371&postcount=2

It really makes no economic sense right now for your average household in Ireland to stick PV panels on the roof.

Upfront investment too expensive, no payment for feeding back to grid, and cost to store excess energy on site too expensive as it's early days.

No data either on how these systems perform after 5, 10, 15 years either e.g. if pay back period is 10yrs and the system dies after 10yrs then you haven't gained anything. Or what's the efficiency of system over these timescales?

If it wasn't for government building regulations I don't think you'd see any developer installing PV panels on your average house either.

Effects

metricspaces wrote: »

It really makes no economic sense right now for your average household in Ireland to stick PV panels on the roof.

Cheapest way to satisfy part L of building regs.

Upfront investment too expensive, no payment for feeding back to grid, and cost to store excess energy on site too expensive as it's early days.

My system cost €2500, currently it's generating an average of 0.7kwhr per day, about 11c.
Even if I could store that, it wouldn't really be worth it. What I do generate gets used up by the base load in my house.

If it wasn't for government building regulations I don't think you'd see any developer installing PV panels on your average house either.

You're probably right. Even builder/developers I know say it's a joke.
My engineer said he wouldn't recommend an immersion diverter as the payback was too long on it.

rolion

My PVs generated reports updated.
My half issue is that the 2.4Kw power back garden panels,during the DecJanFeb are covered by "shadow" therefore are generating only half of what the front panels does.

My main concern and that should be for everyne that has or wants PVs is how to maximise the generated energy and not how much is it doing today or tomorrow ...or ... summer vs winter !
I can have good days in the winter that covers and exceeds the needs and bad days in the summer that cause disatisfaction with the expectations.

Therefore,optimisation,storage,scheduling the loads and not lastly,diverter.

Enjoy it.

rolion

AND... to give Caesar what is Caesar's ... the Joule' solar 40 tubes reports today:full tank at almost 50 degrees ,by 3:30pm and no one using the water in the house.

I really hope that these will brings some clarification on somebody deciding on one against the other systems, really advise to go for both if possible.
I love to assist anyone deciding to go with a system that helps the environment and not lastly,breaking the burden on the monthly utility bills .

Shefwedfan

Just to confirm rolion, do you have PV and solar thermal? Or just PV with diverter?

unkel

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Just to confirm rolion, do you have PV and solar thermal? Or just PV with diverter?

PV and solar thermal. You can see it from the picture of his roof with the 40 tubes (solar thermal) and the 7 panels (PV)

I'm hoping to go PV too this spring. Might call on you for help, rolion

KCross

unkel wrote: »

I'm hoping to go PV too this spring.

I presume for environmental reasons rather than financial ones?

unkel

Both. I'm using an awful lot more electricity during the day now. I don't think I can fit more than about 7 panels on the roof and it won't be hard for me to use all the electricity that produces for base load (so without competing with night rate, so not for charging the car). So the financial value of all of my production will be the full day rate (13c or thereabouts), so say 1900kWh/y at €0.13 = €250 per year

If I can get a 7 panel system up for about €2k or a bit more, I'll do it. Is that a realistic price for a small system, including installation, anyone? I won't be doing any of the work myself. Cost of 7 panels is about €1k? What else in materials and labour?

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

Both. I'm using an awful lot more electricity during the day now. I don't think I can fit more than about 7 panels on the roof and it won't be hard for me to use all the electricity that produces for base load (so without competing with night rate, so not for charging the car). So the financial value of all of my production will be the full day rate (13c or thereabouts), so say 1900kWh/y at €0.13 = €250 per year

If I can get a 7 panel system up for about €2k or a bit more, I'll do it. Is that a realistic price for a small system, including installation, anyone? I won't be doing any of the work myself. Cost of 7 panels is about €1k? What else in materials and labour?

I would love to get PV installed but I just can't see the cost benefit at the moment. I did get some pricing last year and confirm this year for a PV system by a company

3kW circa 5,400 (12 panel)
2kw circa 4700(8 panel 265w)

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

PV and solar thermal. You can see it from the picture of his roof with the 40 tubes (solar thermal) and the 7 panels (PV)

I'm hoping to go PV too this spring. Might call on you for help, rolion

Interesting you have both....I was going thermal.....have roof space for it.....but when I brought out a few companies they said not to bother and just put in PV with divertor so it will just use excess power to heat the water.

With a family of 5 in the house we use a LOT of hot water so that is why I initialled looked at thermal.

If you have roof space would thermal be a decent starting point till the government finally give grant for PV?

unkel

Yep. But only if you use a lot of hot water. We're also a family of 5 (4 women ) and we use lots of hot water. Diverting to immersion is a load of nonsense (presuming you already have a reasonably efficient gas or oil boiler and / or night rate electricity. It's almost cheaper to divert it back to the grid for free. Diverter is about €500 and takes 10 years to pay for itself, and once it has paid for itself it has to compete with gas which costs 4c/kWh (even a lot less than night rate electricity)

PV is not financially attractive in Ireland unless you actually do use most of the production for things that can't be done at night rate electricity or done by gas / oil / solid fuels (a feed in tariff or a subsidy on the installation could of course change all this)

rolion

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Just to confirm rolion, do you have PV and solar thermal? Or just PV with diverter?

I have both. Or, all three...

in the front 40 tubes solar system with 7 PVs, both works 365 days.
In the back, another 8 PV panels that are shaded 3 months of the year but adds to generation the other months of the year.

Diverter does the job great. Today it diverted almost 3KWh to immersion.

Shefwedfan

rolion wrote: »

I have both. Or, all three...

in the front 40 tubes solar system with 7 PVs, both works 365 days.
In the back, another 8 PV panels that are shaded 3 months of the year but adds to generation the other months of the year.

Diverter does the job great. Today it diverted almost 3KWh to immersion.

What do you do with all the water? :P

rolion

Shefwedfan wrote: »

What do you do with all the water? :P

Don't know to be honest... im leaving in the morning and come back in the evening... two showers daily and a weekly big bath.
Why you're asking ?

The secret with solar tubes in the winter is that the cylinder is hot now...when everyone home,the bottom temperature,due to consumption and mix with in flow cold water,it will get colder...THEN and THAT the gas boiler kicks in and takes it from a warm temperature to the 50s with very low consumption and pressure on the system.

Summer time,gas boiler closed and few times we had to dump the water to cool the system to reset the pump ...or ...take longer showers or baths !

What do you think,what do you have in mind ?!

Shefwedfan

rolion wrote: »

Don't know to be honest... im leaving in the morning and come back in the evening... two showers daily and a weekly big bath.
Why you're asking ?

The secret with solar tubes in the winter is that the cylinder is hot now...when everyone home,the bottom temperature,due to consumption and mix with in flow cold water,it will get colder...THEN and THAT the gas boiler kicks in and takes it from a warm temperature to the 50s with very low consumption and pressure on the system.

Summer time,gas boiler closed and few times we had to dump the water to cool the system to reset the pump ...or ...take longer showers or baths !

What do you think,what do you have in mind ?!

Sorry that was supposed to be a joke about water:D a poor one I do admit

I orginally had planned to install Thermal but as mentioned above a few companies told me I was wasting my time. My plan then was to install PV with divertor, so excess power would heat the water.

As mentioned we use a lot of water. I have a large roof space plus external sheds which point in right direction. PV costs at the moment are just too high to make it viable.

I am wondering should I install the PV now, gain the benefits of thermal with longer term plan of installing PV. I will still have plenty of roof space but in reality my plan would be to use the roof space on sheds.

I currently use night rate electricity to heat tank and then have oil boiler kicking in during the day to heat water for baths etc......

Heating system/immersion tank etc are all top of the range so no upgrade required on these.....immersion on timer etc

rolion

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I orginally had planned to install Thermal but as mentioned above a few companies told me I was wasting my time. My plan then was to install PV with divertor, so excess power would heat the water.

As mentioned we use a lot of water. I have a large roof space plus external sheds which point in right direction. PV costs at the moment are just too high to make it viable.

I am wondering should I install the PV now, gain the benefits of thermal with longer term plan of installing PV. I will still have plenty of roof space but in reality my plan would be to use the roof space on sheds.

I cant comment on available space as I need to see it. Search professional advise, I had researched 12 Solar day and nights months until I got my facts re system.

Apply for the solar tubes grant, get a 40-60 solar tubs quote with or without cylinder.
Once the grant is refunded, you will be better of financially TODAY .
Leave the PVs for the big boys and their farms...we will never get a decent FIT.
And that is the general tendencies worldwide, not only here...US of A gets taxes against solar PVs, wondering why !?

I got ,thanks to SEAI €1,500 back from solar tubes, as I was on 4th grant. And most of the work I did it DIY .

unkel

It is far cheaper and far more efficient to heat water with solar tubes than with PV

unkel

rolion wrote: »

Leave the PVs for the big boys and their farms...we will never get a decent FIT.
And that is the general tendencies worldwide, not only here...[/I]

Nah, it is mostly here. Drive around in the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany (and many other EU countries) and you'll see many, many houses plastered with solar PV. 5kW or even 10kW isn't exceptional. Reason: subsidy on install and decent FIT.

Shefwedfan

Attached a image I was sent by PV company. That was for 12 panels. Just to give idea of roof space

If you look in the top of the photo, the grey fuzzy section, that is the sheds I would use for PV....potentially

I have 1 electric car which charges at night as I use for work during the day, when a decent 7 seater electric becomes available it would then make more sense to have PV as other car would need to charge during the day at times

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

Nah, it is mostly here. Drive around in the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany (and many other EU countries) and you'll see many, many houses plastered with solar PV. 5kW or even 10kW isn't exceptional. Reason: subsidy on install and decent FIT.

I did se a video from US, a small company was selling solar PV. They had orders out the door and doubled in size in a few months, why? because the US offered grants or something to install PV

Suddently the power companies had meeting with government, grant gone, company was going bust more or less.....it was about 12 months ago on facebook so would never find again.....

denismc

This is quote I got last year from a company in Cork. This includes install but without a diverter. 6 months later and I am still waiting for an install!


€2,880
+ VAT
2.08 kW System - 8 Panels

€3,880
+ VAT3.12 kW System - 12 Panels

€4,780
+ VAT
4.16 kW System - 16 Panels

unkel

Shefwedfan wrote: »

2kw circa 4700(8 panel 265w)

That's crazy, they're making an enormous margin on that. Was that the ESB's own system?

denismc wrote: »

€2,880 + VAT
2.08 kW System - 8 Panels

That's more like it, but I would like to have it done a good bit cheaper than that.

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

That's crazy, they're making an enormous margin on that. Was that the ESB's own system?



That's more like it, but I would like to have it done a good bit cheaper than that.

No was company. Dont want to name here

rolion

Those prices may mean nothing...unless...
What type of panels are in the system ?
Do you get a breakdown of the system or just numbers ?
How much is the warranty and the after sales support, If any ?

I'll suggest going with the biggest output panels versus size versus coverage on the roof...why chose 250w or 265w when you can go with 300w or 330w ? ! ! Also, one element that you as a owner cannot replace or upgrade are the panels itself...I chose the premium panels, LG 300w and LG 330W as they are backed by a company that designs, research and manufacture them. Cost me almost €1 per Watt delivered but I have the guarantee that they are individually tested and supplied over to my roof.

Not lastly, if you want to get some renewables you have done yourself and to myself a good thing... You have started the process of sustainability and conserving the planet at your own door ...or... your own roof ! All the numbers doesn't make financial sense as long as you have the sentiment, the feeling that you have done something to reduce the burden and the footprint of your own individual / own family against the scarce resources of the Planet, lowering the impact on the consequences that this living humans generation takes as granted all of the Planet offerings and wasting instead of been aware and respecting them....
One small example is that my family is to become more energy aware due to solar panels and solar PVs and we use the water and the electricity around the Sun on the sky, whenever is higher and better. I grow lots of greens in the back garden, lowering my consumption of the industrial produced food elements... Recycle and reuse anything that can be done in order to eliminate wastage, at my best effort and capability.

If anyone and all of us will start at your own door / roof / garden, I feel a wave of positive energy coming from us toward the next generation, passing biological and mentality concepts that will only guarantee and improve our children's life,i hope with just the right result to balance the effects of big corporations and countries that introduces taxes against.

Where do we stand, as individual against or working with big corporates and political system aka lobby and taxes...not sure yet.
But, while creating awareness, even with 3-4 panels on the roof of the new homes ,lets be confident that something is happening, something is moving and that small atom / electron running through the wires and pipes can be the final element saving our lives ?!!

God Bless all of us... and worst action is non-action !!!

Shefwedfan

rolion wrote: »

Those prices may mean nothing...unless...
What type of panels are in the system ?
Do you get a breakdown of the system or just numbers ?
How much is the warranty and the after sales support, If any ?

Information below

Panels:
System Rating
2.12 kWp
PV Panels
8 x 265 Wp from Conergy
Inverter
SB 1.5 from SMA
Total Module Area
13.2 m2
Typical Generation
1,908– 2,120 kWh/year
Estimated Savings*
382 – 424 €/year(based on 0.2c per kWh)

The 265W Conergy Powerplus modules quoted for below carry a 12 year all inclusive product warranty with a 25 year 85% performance warranty. SMA inverters carry a standard 5 year warranty which is extendable 25 years.(not included)

Shefwedfan

rolion wrote: »

Not lastly, if you want to get some renewables you have done yourself and to myself a good thing... You have started the process of sustainability and conserving the planet at your own door ...or... your own roof ! All the numbers doesn't make financial sense as long as you have the sentiment........

I agree with what you say, I would prefer to have full renewal energy at house, remove the oil heating etc etc

My perfect situation would be

• Finish rest of house with insulation(50% done)
• Air tightness on rest of house(50% done)
• Heat recovery system
• Remove oil heating and replace with .......? Gerthermal and radiators not optimal
• Solar PV for power during day
• Wind for power at night
• Solar thermal or PV to provide hot water
• Recycle water system
• 2 x electrical cars(already moved to 1)

I only bought house 14 months ago as previous house was restricted on what I could do after years of work doing it up. So this is more or less blank canvass but as not new build it takes longer to make changes

Effects

Shefwedfan wrote: »

My perfect situation would be

• Finish rest of house with insulation(50% done)
• Air tightness on rest of house(50% done)
• Heat recovery system
• Remove oil heating and replace with .......? Gerthermal and radiators not optimal
  
• Solar PV for power during day
  
• Wind for power at night
• Solar thermal or PV to provide hot water
• Recycle water system
• 2 x electrical cars(already moved to 1)

I only bought house 14 months ago as previous house was restricted on what I could do after years of work doing it up. So this is more or less blank canvass but as not new build it takes longer to make changes

Don't forget you'll need a battery to store the power you generate.

unkel

Batteries are still very expensive. It costs more to store your "free" electricity from solar / wind into a battery than it costs to just buy the same kWh of electricity from the grid. Batteries are only for environmental enthusiasts at the moment and of course for off grid installs.

Gumbo

unkel wrote: »

Batteries are still very expensive. It costs more to store your "free" electricity from solar / wind into a battery than it costs to just buy the same kWh of electricity from the grid. Batteries are only for environmental enthusiasts at the moment and of course for off grid installs.

They are starting to come down now. One company can provide a 5kw battery storage unit for about €4k.

We should be getting to a stage where they are mandatory on new houses in my opinion. They are only the size of a microwave and can be placed in the attic space next to the invertor.

KCross

kceire wrote: »

They are starting to come down now. One company can provide a 5kw battery storage unit for about €4k.

We should be getting to a stage where they are mandatory on new houses in my opinion. They are only the size of a microwave and can be placed in the attic space next to the invertor.

It needs to be cheaper than that.
Tesla Powerwall 2 is €7k for 13.5 kWh(usable)... so approx €500/kWh

5kW for €4k isn't great.

When the Powerwall drops by another 50% we might be in the right ball park. Hopefully Tesla will get to that point when they have the Gigafactory in full flight.

Effects

kceire wrote: »

They are starting to come down now. One company can provide a 5kw battery storage unit for about €4k.
We should be getting to a stage where they are mandatory on new houses in my opinion. They are only the size of a microwave and can be placed in the attic space next to the invertor.

That'd take me about 8 days to charge and one day to discharge!
Currently monitoring my usage in and out to do a proper comparison as only got the wifi monitoring on my Solis inverter up and running a week ago.