Arsene Wenger at 20

Jimbob1977

When Arsene Wenger succeeded Bruce Rioch at Highbury, the newspaper headlines screamed 'Arsene who'???? Some French guy who was managing in Japan.

Two years later, his Arsenal were League Champions.

Before Abramovich pumped his millions into Chelsea, Arsenal were United's great rival over many epic seasons.

What do other posters think about the 20 years of Arsene Wenger at Arsenal?

As a United fan, I think is he is a true football man and I respect him greatly. He transformed Arsenal from a brutally efficient machine into a swashbuckling team. Players like Adams and Keown became ball-playing defenders and discovered a new way of thinking.

Pros:

o Signing talent like Henry, Overmars and Pires. The Premier League was enriched by them.

o Turned Dennis Bergkamp from a player whose confidence was damaged at Inter Milan into a true legend.

o Challenging the United dominance from 1997 to 2004. Ended the usual procession for Fergie.

o Changing the EPL mindset from 'kick and rush' to a more nuanced game.

o The Invincibles of 2004. 38 matches unbeaten.


Con:

o Failed to spend at the appropriate times. Seemed convinced that sub-par players would deliver.

o Failed to close out a few Championships where Arsenal were top by March 1st.

o European scene was largely disappointing.

ricero

Im a liverpool fan and have great respect for wenger. Would love to see him go out on a high with another league title victory or to finally win the big one in europe. The guy is a class act

Mr.Nice Guy

I have huge respect for him too and I can recall how he shook things up when he arrived. Those Arsenal teams in the late 90s, early 2000s were fantastic.

He gets a lot of criticism for the past decade, a lot of it justified, and I think at times he has prioritised style over steel to a degree that hurt his chances of success, but looking at his time overall I think he has been great for Arsenal and the Premier League.

I'm sure he could have left and gone to Madrid (they took on coaches with less impressive CVs than his), or gone to PSG, or perhaps Bayern Munich, and a host of other top clubs that would have wanted his services. But he stayed loyal to Arsenal and you have to respect that.

I do get the feeling though that his time there is drawing to a close. I just wonder will the parting be amicable or not.

gosplan

Wenger's strength and weakness is that he's so principled.

A phenomenon. Broke the dominance of Alex Ferguson, perhaps eclipsed in the past decade when Chelsea recruited Mourinho and they and the 2 other title winners threw vast fortunes at it while his own success raised expectations. Obviously Europe hasn't been as successful, but qualifying for the CL 19 times in a row is pretty extarordinary in its own right.

Sono

Legend of the game, he's proven to be quite stubborn in recent times but he's still got it and financially Arsenal are in an unbelievable position.

I am not an Arsenal fan but I certainly wouldn't begrudge him a league title before he retires

Dirty Dingus McGee

Deleted User wrote: »

A phenomenon. Broke the dominance of Alex Ferguson, perhaps eclipsed in the past decade when Chelsea recruited Mourinho and they and the 2 other title winners threw vast fortunes at it while his own success raised expectations. Obviously Europe hasn't been as successful, but qualifying for the CL 19 times in a row is pretty extarordinary in its own right.

It isn't in my opinion, his record of qualifying for the last 16 of the competition is similarly not so impressive as it looks on paper.

I'd rather a manager won the league a couple of more times in that span and missed out on the champions league a few years.

Arsenal totally blew the league last year they were in a great position around Christmas and then after they beat Leicester and they ****ed it up badly.I also seem to remember (although I may be wrong) that they ****ed up badly the year they had a 4-4 draw with Newcastle (they lost a lot of leads that year) and also the year Gallas threw a tantrum against Birmingham.

He has been far too loyal to a lot of players over the years and far too unwilling to bite the bullet and make necessary changes down the spine of the team, he's dithered on sorting out the goalkeeping,central defence,defensive midfield and striker area over the years and it's resulted in Arsenal being also rans for the last while.

He was a great manager but players like managers can end up being past there sell by date and he's been in that place for at least 5 years I would say.

bucketybuck

Says a lot that all the "pros" listed in the OP are from well over a decade ago.

Sono

Arsenal on their day play the best football in the league and have done so for years, of course Arsenal fans would rather leagues over sexy football but at the same time some of the football they can play is just amazing to watch

Harry Palmr

He created a completely new exciting Arsenal style, a new game in England really with the off the field sophistication and he built a stadium in all but name. If he had only taken them to a CL victory and another title post 2004 he'd be rightly considered one of the best managers ever in the English game, as such he is in the next tier down - but not bad for Arsene Who?

gosplan

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

It isn't in my opinion, his record of qualifying for the last 16 of the competition is similarly not so impressive as it looks on paper.

I'd rather a manager won the league a couple of more times in that span and missed out on the champions league a few years.

Arsenal totally blew the league last year they were in a great position around Christmas and then after they beat Leicester and they ****ed it up badly.I also seem to remember (although I may be wrong) that they ****ed up badly the year they had a 4-4 draw with Newcastle (they lost a lot of leads that year) and also the year Gallas threw a tantrum against Birmingham.

He has been far too loyal to a lot of players over the years and far too unwilling to bite the bullet and make necessary changes down the spine of the team, he's dithered on sorting out the goalkeeping,central defence,defensive midfield and striker area over the years and it's resulted in Arsenal being also rans for the last while.

He was a great manager but players like managers can end up being past there sell by date and he's been in that place for at least 5 years I would say.

Last year was the bad one. Other times they were overachieving vrs clubs with better players and the season was just too long to ride a wave of form, or for a team built around a single player (i.e Fab or RVP) to stay ahead.

What Leicester did last season was start playing high scoring matches, winning a lot of 3-2 type games. Then suddenly for the second half, they pivoted and became a really solid defensive into and ground out the 1-0's.

Arsenal never did that. They just tried to blitz the league with an inadequate squad and came up short.

Leicester are the only team to really show them up in a title race.

I can forgive Arsenal all the other ones but they didn't really put Leicester under pressure in the final few months last season.

Paully D

One of the best ever.

Paully D

Paully D wrote: »

One of the best ever.

Possibly the best ever. The only real rivals in England are Ferguson, Clough and Paisley. The others who might be included are Revie, Shankley and Chapman.

Damien360

Liverpool fan here. I really like him and his football but he has his failings. Longest serving manager of PL says a great deal about the man.

BUT.

Will not buy a true out and out proven striker, has to stick to his own system of finding the diamond in the rough when they have buckets of money. I am not familiar with the financial people in the background of Arsenal and who really has the power, but on the face of it, it appears Arsene is the CEO and he calls the shots.

He seems to hate a glory hunter. The type of player that wants to take the ball and smash it instead of touch it forward. All his teams are cursed with this. They need this type of player to grab the game by the scruff of the neck and attack.

His squad is not deep enough, for all their money. Never has been which hurts them in Europe.

Top 4 every year, with CL, no debt, they should be competing with PSG, Real Madrid etc. for players and that's not happening.

On the plus side, they are very much a solvent team (cash wise) with a fantastic stadium and all that was managed by himself. They also play beautiful football and I firmly believe he brought this mentality to English football.

mansize

Deleted User wrote: »

Possibly the best ever. The only real rivals in England are Ferguson, Clough and Paisley. The others who might be included are Revie, Shankley and Chapman.

No he isn't the best ever. But he is in the Top 5.

He revolutionised football.

He won the league going a season unbeaten.

He kept the side in the top 4 while a new stadium was being built and paid for.

He still competed year in year out with a budget a fraction of his rivals.

mansize

Damien360 wrote: »

Liverpool fan here. I really like him and his football but he has his failings. Longest serving manager of PL says a great deal about the man.

BUT.

Will not buy a true out and out proven striker, has to stick to his own system of finding the diamond in the rough when they have buckets of money. I am not familiar with the financial people in the background of Arsenal and who really has the power, but on the face of it, it appears Arsene is the CEO and he calls the shots.

He seems to hate a glory hunter. The type of player that wants to take the ball and smash it instead of touch it forward. All his teams are cursed with this. They need this type of player to grab the game by the scruff of the neck and attack.

His squad is not deep enough, for all their money. Never has been which hurts them in Europe.

Top 4 every year, with CL, no debt, they should be competing with PSG, Real Madrid etc. for players and that's not happening.

On the plus side, they are very much a solvent team (cash wise) with a fantastic stadium and all that was managed by himself. They also play beautiful football and I firmly believe he brought this mentality to English football.

For all liverpool's millions they couldn't win a premier league title.

Arsenal have the debt from the stadium, its not paid for!

Their transfer budget is relatively small and these "true out and out proven striker"s are hard to come by!

Iused2likebusts

ricero wrote: »

Im a liverpool fan and have great respect for wenger. Would love to see him go out on a high with another league title victory or to finally win the big one in europe. The guy is a class act

my thoughts exactly. Always enjoyed watching his teams play that team with pires, ljunberg, henry, bergkamp were a joy to watch.

Damien360

mansize wrote: »

For all liverpool's millions they couldn't win a premier league title.

Arsenal have the debt from the stadium, its not paid for!

Their transfer budget is relatively small and these "true out and out proven striker"s are hard to come by!

Never disputed that. LFC is a work in progress. We are in a 5 year plan for the last 20 years.

Arsenal sold Highbury at the height of the boom. I was under the impression (for many years) that the sale of highbury covered the cost of the new build. Arsenal fans are better placed to comment but I was sure they are in the black with a large cash reserve. Arsene has said the same as late as the end of last season.

They were willing to drop a fortune on Suarez so the budget ain't that tight.

Yes, out and out strikers are hard to find but with money, you get the pick of the crop. Giroud and Welbeck are not Arsenal quality.

mansize

Damien360 wrote: »

Never disputed that. LFC is a work in progress. We are in a 5 year plan for the last 20 years.

Arsenal sold Highbury at the height of the boom. I was under the impression (for many years) that the sale of highbury covered the cost of the new build. Arsenal fans are better placed to comment but I was sure they are in the black with a large cash reserve. Arsene has said the same as late as the end of last season.

They were willing to drop a fortune on Suarez so the budget ain't that tight.

Yes, out and out strikers are hard to find but with money, you get the pick of the crop. Giroud and Welbeck are not Arsenal quality.

Giroud or Welbeck weren't bought as the main striker

Podolski was :oops:

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

His record is soured a great deal by his second decade in charge for me. Arsenal can play great football at times but they seem to consistently lack any grit to get big results when it matters. They seem to have been "a couple of players short" for the longest time too and they do have the cash to plug some of those gaps.

He inherited the best English backline of 4 or 5 players that any manager could have ever hoped for and he built on that brilliantly by bringing in world class ball playing continental players. He managed to rebuild a team then that achieved the unbeatable season. So he gets plenty of credit for that too.

I just imagine Arsenal supporters having a feeling of what could have been over the past 12 years. Not being able to hold onto your best players. The feeling of being always the bridesmaid and never the bride seems apt for this period of his career.

I just feel like they could have achieved so much more than they have. Perpetual 4th place finishes and last 16 Champions League is a really good achievement, but ultimately it feels a bit short changed.

Dirty Dingus McGee

mansize wrote: »

No he isn't the best ever. But he is in the Top 5.

He revolutionised football.

He won the league going a season unbeaten.

He kept the side in the top 4 while a new stadium was being built and paid for.

He still competed year in year out with a budget a fraction of his rivals.

I'm not sure he did that in fairness.He may have had a big influence on the game in england but that's about as far as his influence stretches he certainly didn't revolutionize the whole sport.

mansize

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I'm not sure he did that in fairness.He may have had a big influence on the game in england but that's about as far as his influence stretches he certainly didn't revolutionize the whole sport.

Sorry, yes, English football

Snakeblood

Damien360 wrote: »

Never disputed that. LFC is a work in progress. We are in a 5 year plan for the last 20 years.

Arsenal sold Highbury at the height of the boom. I was under the impression (for many years) that the sale of highbury covered the cost of the new build. Arsenal fans are better placed to comment but I was sure they are in the black with a large cash reserve. Arsene has said the same as late as the end of last season.

They were willing to drop a fortune on Suarez so the budget ain't that tight.

Yes, out and out strikers are hard to find but with money, you get the pick of the crop. Giroud and Welbeck are not Arsenal quality.

They're in the black now. From 2006-2011, they were touch and go. It's in the last 3 years that they've really blown big sums on players.

Sanchez/Ozil/Moustafi/Xhaka. Before that, in 2009, their biggest purchase was Arshavin. And he cost 15m. As a point of comparison, Rio Ferdinand cost 30 million or so seven years prior to that. They simply couldn't compete financially, and you can take the fact that they're spending big now as an indication that they couldn't before. Or you could take what Wenger is saying now as an indicator.

Pepe LeFrits

Minor point but Highbury wasn't sold at the height of the boom. It was converted into apartments which didn't go on the market until after 2008. Still managed to sell them, though not for as much as the club would have hoped for.

Richard Hillman

He is a bit like Oasis. His crap period has been far longer than the good times. .

jester77

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Minor point but Highbury wasn't sold at the height of the boom. It was converted into apartments which didn't go on the market until after 2008. Still managed to sell them, though not for as much as the club would have hoped for.

Yip, Arsenal were more or less broke at the time, to be able to compete under those circumstances says a lot about the man. It is impressive that he has never finished outside the top 4, he may not have been as successful in his second decade, but he has set Arsenal up to be a success going forward. There is a nice extract in Ian Wrights book about this:

It’s well known that Arsène Wenger was instrumental in the building of the Emirates Stadium, but what he really doesn’t get enough credit for are the years right after the move. I had a great chat with Ivan Gazidis, our chief executive, in 2015, and he explained to me that, when we were leaving Highbury to go to the Emirates, we were close to being broke.
It’s difficult to believe: my immediate thought was how a club like Arsenal couldn’t ever be on the edge, but when you think about it properly it was there for everybody to see … we weren’t buying players … we were selling our superstars … It was because they didn’t sell the flats in the development of the old stadium as quickly as they hoped, so things were going wrong on the financial side and those were barren years.
It was something that couldn’t have been anticipated, because the slump in the property market came long after the development was planned. That was why it was so important to keep Thierry after the move: he was the figurehead that we couldn’t afford to replace. Talking about that time, Ivan told me how seriously bad those years were, and said to me, ‘Ian, Arsène Wenger is the only manager who could tolerate what a club of Arsenal’s stature had to go through with the stadium and the next ten years, and pull it off.’ It was about more than just getting through it, though. With the resources he had to work with, he kept the club in the top four and Champions League football for every one of those years.
I know there’s been a lot of fuss made by people saying and writing derogatory things about how Arsène thinks the top four is a trophy in itself, but they don’t realize what an achievement it was to finance the stadium and stay in the top four. Tottenham will find that out when they build their stadium, but there’s the difference between them and us – we had to be in the top four. They could be tenth and it doesn’t matter because they haven’t got the same ambitions as us.
Spurs may not be in the top four and it won’t be news; if Arsenal don’t get into the top four, that news goes around the world. Arsenal has a particularly high set of standards and the team has to maintain them, regardless. It’s easy to think Arsenal could have attracted the kind of investor needed to get them through those times – I thought that myself when Ivan told me how close the situation had been. But even if they could have, I’m not sure they would have, because the board have to remain in control of the club’s future.
They have to be in charge of what decisions they’re going to make for the club and for the fans. They couldn’t afford to pass over the sort of power anybody looking to plough money in would expect – with all due respect, that sort of thing is easier for Chelsea and Manchester City. The board weren’t going to risk turning Arsenal into anything other than what Arsenal is. The fact is, Arsenal do things how Arsenal do them, and how they do them always turns out to be right. Always. Looking in at it from the outside, though, it was frustrating, and some of the time I’ve slaughtered the board in the press: What’s going on? How did Patrick Vieira end up at Man City and then as manager of their sister club in New York? Why isn’t Dennis at our club? Why isn’t Tony Adams? … I laid the blame of financial constraint on the board, and gave them so much stick because I thought they were not letting Arsène Wenger do what he needed to be doing.
I was critical just because I wanted us to win. I was like the fans who couldn’t understand why we weren’t winning. We had just come off the Invincibles and I so wanted that to be the start of us winning and doing things, because I believed that time was Arsenal’s chance to become like Liverpool in the 1970s and 1980s, or Man United through the 1990s. I thought it wwould be Arsenal’s time to dominate for four or five years, to win the league a few more times, to win the Champions League. So maybe I even foolishly slipped into the same thinking of ‘Have we got another George Graham here? … Doesn’t Arsène want to pay the money? … Doesn’t he want to buy the players?’ And people started talking about him as, ‘Oh, he’s stubborn … he’s too stuck in his ways.’
Arsène Wenger was genuinely doing what he could to win the games. At no point did he do anything else or have any other agenda, and despite the financial issues, he kept Arsenal in the top four. I understand that now, and I’ve got no problem with it. In fact, I think it’s a mark of how much he loves the club: knowing what he knew at the time, he never came out and said anything about anything. He just took it, took all the crap that was thrown at him in the press and by the fans, so the club didn’t have to.
It’s almost like there was a Jesus Christ thing about him, where he held his arms out and said, ‘OK, I’m going to take on all this abuse and protect everybody, because I’m the manager and this is what I’ve got to do.’
That’s why I know I couldn’t be a manager!

LuckyLloyd

The 2004 invincibles were a perfect balance between hard nosed cynicism and positive play. They could click at times and play breathtaking football, but if they needed to dig in and kick you off the pitch they would. Whatever it took to win. His teams (maybe Wenger himself?) lost that edge over the past decade. It seemed too deliberate a shift for it to be circumstance, and I think it has obviously been proven as the wrong move strategy wise.

greendom

jester77 wrote: »

Yip, Arsenal were more or less broke at the time, to be able to compete under those circumstances says a lot about the man. It is impressive that he has never finished outside the top 4, he may not have been as successful in his second decade, but he has set Arsenal up to be a success going forward. There is a nice extract in Ian Wrights book about this:

Anyone who complains about the second half of his career at Arsenal not being as successful as his first needs to read that and consider re-evaluating their opinion. In some ways, bearing in mind the huge obstacles he had to deal with, the second half of his time at Arsenal was more succesful. Having to sell the best players in the team year in year out, while their main rivals had money to burn.

eh i dunno

Am I the only one who opened the thread expecting a pic of wenger when he was 20?

greendom

eh i dunno wrote: »

Am I the only one who opened the thread expecting a pic of wenger when he was 20?

just so you don't go away disappointed...

Arne_Saknussem

greendom wrote: »

Anyone who complains about the second half of his career at Arsenal not being as successful as his first needs to read that and consider re-evaluating their opinion. In some ways, bearing in mind the huge obstacles he had to deal with, the second half of his time at Arsenal was more succesful. Having to sell the best players in the team year in year out, while their main rivals had money to burn.

Having to sell a lot of them to his rivals too.

Bounty Hunter

He is stubborn and has had his failings / missed opportunities in recent years but damn do I admire and respect the man. He is a great and the reasons that I hope Arsenal can win big this year so that assuming it is his last with them he can ride off into the sunset would a prem or CL title .


It also would not seem right for him to manage anywhere else for me. A few years ago I'd have said maybe internationally with France but now I don't even know about that and assume much like Fergie at united he would move upstairs at Arsenal when he stops managing there.

Even the Arsenal fans who would like to see him replaced as manager would probably always place Wenger in higher esteem than any potential replacement unless they won everything.

Giggsy11

mansize wrote: »

No he isn't the best ever. But he is in the Top 5.

He revolutionised football.

He won the league going a season unbeaten.

He kept the side in the top 4 while a new stadium was being built and paid for.

He still competed year in year out with a budget a fraction of his rivals.

If you are talking about just in North London then yes, he is in top 5.

Very good manager though, he achieved a lot for Arsenal in his first 10 years and then set them for future by keeping team competitive during their hard time (building stadium) but now I don't think it is working as per their plan. Match day revenue is not as important or significant % in the overall revenue now a days.

Credit for building modern Arsenal though.

eagle eye

Fantastic manager who has done wonderful things both as a tactician and the business side of football too.

His teams have and always will entertain you.

I understand that some fans of Arsenal have become frustrated at not winning a league title and some poor results in Europe over the last decade or so but the football is just so good that I wouldn't be that concerned about a title if I was an Arsenal fan.

He will always be one of my favourite managers in the history of football. He is an intelligent manager and has always moved forward with the times and keeps looking for a better way to play the game.

Like has been said by others already, I'd love to see him win another EPL title and the Champion's league as well.

Bobby Baccala

eagle eye wrote: »

Fantastic manager who has done wonderful things both as a tactician and the business side of football too.

His teams have and always will entertain you.

I understand that some fans of Arsenal have become frustrated at not winning a league title and some poor results in Europe over the last decade or so but the football is just so good that I wouldn't be that concerned about a title if I was an Arsenal fan.

He will always be one of my favourite managers in the history of football. He is an intelligent manager and has always moved forward with the times and keeps looking for a better way to play the game.

Meh, I'd take a year of ugly football and a premier league title all day over good football. Until recently the football we've been playing is muck really.

messinkiapina

I think Arsenal are the only other big club in England that Liverpool fans can tolerate :pac: Wenger has to take a lot of the credit for that because he's a gent and he always tries to play football the way it should be played.

I can understand why a lot of Arsenal fans feel it's now time for a change at the same time though.