Reasoning with sick people

sullivlo

I'm still not sure where this should go. Perhaps ranting and raving would be suited given how annoyed I am, but I would like some constructive advice (and even input from those who disagree with me/science so that I can see both sides).

I have a friend who has cancer. It's a fairly tragic situation. It's breast cancer and triple negative, and so far no treatment has managed to completely remove the cancer. She has had surgery, radio and chemo, but still has cancer. But her consultant is hopeful - it's not aggressive, it's being maintained, it's not growing. It's being treated as a long term illness.

However she has turned to the route of seeing a nutritionist who advocates a certain diet/lifestyle for cancer treatment. She has sent me on some links to the ideas behind the treatment, and all I can say is that they are a crock of ****.

There are so many alarm bells.

Disclaimer: I have a PhD in food science/digestion/cancer (I was looking at the effect of digestion of different foods on the survival of cancer cells, essentially). So I have a bit of background knowledge in the area they're investigating.

They are a registered charity that accept donations for dietary advice to treat terminal cancer.

Most of the "research" they publish is opinion based. Most of the "research" they publish is funded by the aforementioned charity.

That's only the beginning of it. But I won't go into too much detail here as I'll just get angry.

Anywho. I'm not a medical doctor so I can't tell for sure what impact that following their plan is having on her health. However it is a pretty restrictive diet that she is being told to follow. Despite "constantly eating" she is rapidly losing weight. I'm concerned for her other organs and the pressure that this diet is putting on them.

Her medical team have all said that the diet isn't going to help.

But she doesn't want to listen.

I know that when there's little hope that we clutch at all kinds of straws - four weeks before my aunt died from cancer she was booked in for radical treatment as a last ditch attempt to survive, and she really only accepted her fate the week that she died. So I get it. Desperation causes us to do things.

But how can I best help in this situation? As a scientist I can't support the quackery. I want to support my friend, but I'm not sure I can hold my tongue much longer.

I know I probably come across as being unsupportive or whatnot, but that's not the case. I just don't want to see her continue to focus her entire life on this miracle cure that is scientifically unlikely to exist...

baby and crumble

That's a very tricky one OP. I know your professional side wants to knock all this on its head but as a friend, your job is to support her. Her medical team are the ones whose job it is to fully explain all the effects of such dietary nonsense.

Like you say when you are desperate you see chances and hope everywhere, even when it's not there. You have to respect her choices in handling her illness, even if you feel it's not right. By all means, have a conversations about how her medical team feel, and you can certainly state your case by bringing up the issue, but flying off the handle and telling her she's making it worse won't help. Right now, what she eats is probably the only thing she feels she has any control over in her life, so to give up that last piece of autonomy (as she might see it) will be difficult.

Big Bag of Chips

I think your best bet is to be gentle! Chances are though she won't listen. You can try bring up the areas you studied and researched, but more in a "by the way" way rather than a "I'm telling you" way... If you know what I mean?!

At the end of the day, she is her own adult person. She will make her own choices and decisions and will believe what she wants to believe. Her doctors are probably the best ones to deal with her, as they will have dealt with similar scenarios many many times, I'm sure.

As her friend, I think you can tell her you're worried about how much weight she's losing, and that she needs to have something in reserve to help her when she's sick. But it all has to come from concern, not frustration. And no matter what she ultimately decides, you'll just have to accept it. It's an awful situation for you to be in. I don't envy you. But if you can steer conversation without 'preaching' it's more likely to be taken in. She mightn't do anything immediately, but over time she might start seeing sense.

ash23

Seeing as you have experience in the area, could you maybe assist her in finding foods/recipies that are higher in calories but still fit in with her diet?

For example would things like nuts, avocados, hummous etc be allowed? Or similar?

You might be able to help her more that way.

It's not the same but I have MS and I basically go about my life as it is and it enrages me when someone suggest special diets as a "solution". So I suppose I'm the opposite to this person but the sentiment is the same which is that I'm a grown ass woman and it's my body and I'll decide what I'm going to do with it.
My way of dealing with my illness is denial to an extent. I'll do what I have to do in terms of taking meds and going to appointments but I won't let it rule my every waking moment and for the most part I try to keep my life as close to what it was before I was sick. So someone telling me I should do x or shouldn't do y won't get any time from me for the most part. Someone who wants to support me in my choices and make suggestions that fit in with those choices is different though.

One thing that I felt was that I had no control and that loss of control made me less open to veering off my plan and more stubborn about it. It's my way of keeping some control over things.

kylith

Could you try a bit of trickery OP? Presumably she knows about your background so would you put together a decent diet plan then just happen to mention that research in the US has shown a benefit to this 'revolutionary new' diet, and though it's not out in the media yet because research is still ongoing, but you've been on to one of your colleagues.... Throw in some goji berries, avocado, and other super foods of the moment, and job done.

sullivlo

baby and crumble wrote: »

That's a very tricky one OP. I know your professional side wants to knock all this on its head but as a friend, your job is to support her. Her medical team are the ones whose job it is to fully explain all the effects of such dietary nonsense.

Like you say when you are desperate you see chances and hope everywhere, even when it's not there. You have to respect her choices in handling her illness, even if you feel it's not right. By all means, have a conversations about how her medical team feel, and you can certainly state your case by bringing up the issue, but flying off the handle and telling her she's making it worse won't help. Right now, what she eats is probably the only thing she feels she has any control over in her life, so to give up that last piece of autonomy (as she might see it) will be difficult.

Her medical team have told her that theres no scientific evidence behind these diets, and that she shouldn't follow them. But it appears that the nutritionist has given her information that backs up the claims of the awfulness of sugar, which is inadvertently backed up by science/her doctors (the use of glucose to show cancer cells in PET scans).

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

I think your best bet is to be gentle! Chances are though she won't listen. You can try bring up the areas you studied and researched, but more in a "by the way" way rather than a "I'm telling you" way... If you know what I mean?!

At the end of the day, she is her own adult person. She will make her own choices and decisions and will believe what she wants to believe. Her doctors are probably the best ones to deal with her, as they will have dealt with similar scenarios many many times, I'm sure.

As her friend, I think you can tell her you're worried about how much weight she's losing, and that she needs to have something in reserve to help her when she's sick. But it all has to come from concern, not frustration. And no matter what she ultimately decides, you'll just have to accept it. It's an awful situation for you to be in. I don't envy you. But if you can steer conversation without 'preaching' it's more likely to be taken in. She mightn't do anything immediately, but over time she might start seeing sense.

I tried to reason with her yesterday. Not in a preachy way. We just had a discussion about food groups and stuff. I tried to explain to her in basic language what happens to different energy sources when we eat them, and the importance of different energy sources to fuel our different cells, and why we need all of the nutrient groups to maintain our health, etc etc etc.

I don't think I'm preachy, and I even discussed the diets with her and said I'd look into them further.

It's hard to find a balance though. She's willing to accept science when she wants to learn about new treatments or needs treatments explained to her.

ash23 wrote: »

Seeing as you have experience in the area, could you maybe assist her in finding foods/recipies that are higher in calories but still fit in with her diet?

For example would things like nuts, avocados, hummous etc be allowed? Or similar?

You might be able to help her more that way.

It's not the same but I have MS and I basically go about my life as it is and it enrages me when someone suggest special diets as a "solution". So I suppose I'm the opposite to this person but the sentiment is the same which is that I'm a grown ass woman and it's my body and I'll decide what I'm going to do with it.
My way of dealing with my illness is denial to an extent. I'll do what I have to do in terms of taking meds and going to appointments but I won't let it rule my every waking moment and for the most part I try to keep my life as close to what it was before I was sick. So someone telling me I should do x or shouldn't do y won't get any time from me for the most part. Someone who wants to support me in my choices and make suggestions that fit in with those choices is different though.

One thing that I felt was that I had no control and that loss of control made me less open to veering off my plan and more stubborn about it. It's my way of keeping some control over things.

Sorry to hear about the MS. Hopefully you're getting some sort of relief from the symptoms and not having too many side effects from the meds.

Yeah, we looked at foods yesterday. That's how the whole thing came up. I'll try discuss it with her again soon.

Oh and I agree - there's nothing more infuriating than someone suggesting a diet for your illness!

CdeC

Hi OP,

If the diet is neither beneficial nor harmful I'd suggest let her at it.

If it is causing harm then I would step in. But maybe counter this diet with more sound dietary advice.
Now there is a lot of research for cancer diets and it is obviously very beneficial that you are eating extremely well as you are going through these treatments so that your body is functioning optimally, particularly the immune system.

Now if it was me I would fight research with research. I would try and find more reputable studies about diet and try and steer her towards a healthier food plan.
Maybe even book her in with a good reputable dietician who can explain all this to your friend.
If after this she is still set on the diet then let her off.

Sound Bite

She's dying.

I'm sure of I was, all logic would go out the window and I'd invest in every sort of magic bean/diet/exercise routine available to try and get a different result. She's searching for a miracle, you and her medical team have both told her it won't help so leave it at that.

All you can do is be a supportive friend now.

sullivlo

Sound Bite wrote: »

She's dying.

I'm sure of I was, all logic would go out the window and I'd invest in every sort of magic bean/diet/exercise routine available to try and get a different result. She's searching for a miracle, you and her medical team have both told her it won't help so leave it at that.

All you can do is be a supportive friend now.

Nowhere did I say she was dying. She has cancer but it's not terminal. It's just not completely cleared from her system, however it is being maintained at a constant level. She is in no way dying.

My concern for her is that her health is suffering as a result of the diet she is on. She is not getting enough nutrients, and it would appear that she is in a fairly constant state of ketosis. She has had significant weight loss since she started following the diet, but her general health is beginning to suffer in terms of picking up colds and getting infections.

Believe me. I know all about the miracle cure searching. During my PhD I got emails from stage iv cancer patients who had heard about our wonder drug, and they were emailing us a) to ask us to give them some, and b) asking us for advice on what they could do themselves to make the drug in their body. Around that time, my aunt was diagnosed with stage iv ovarian cancer, and she begged me to make some of the compound for her. She was willing to risk her life on something that I make on a bench in a lab in a non sterile environment without any safety testing being done on the compound. So I know about the miracle cure searching.

I guess all I can really do is be supportive without letting my feelings be known on the inaccuracies of her diet.

I don't have much constructive advice other than assembling the evidence of the non-effectiveness/detriment of the diet her nutritionist advised. Maybe research the credentials of the woo merchants and let her decide if they're more qualified than the expert advice she's been getting from her team. She'll probably just see the light at some point and abandon the exercise. Keep pointing out that she's living with, and not dying of cancer, by the grace of expert medical care.

Besides that, just be there and listen. Don't accept the falsehoods, but don't deter her from sharing either, just be steadfast in both your support, and your willingness to help her find another more beneficial way. She probably just wants to feel that she's doing something, I know I would.

Rubberchikken

my advise would be to continue being her friend, listen to her, support her and be there through what has to be a very tough time for her.
i'd imagine she is searching for any solution to a terrible illness. i realise it's probably not the best diet she could be following but sometimes a person just has to be let make their own decisions.

you could, just by being there, be able to help her when she realises that this diet isn't the answer.

take care and the best of luck to your friend.

Sound Bite

sullivlo wrote: »

Nowhere did I say she was dying. She has cancer but it's not terminal. It's just not completely cleared from her system, however it is being maintained at a constant level. She is in no way dying.

Sincere apologies I misread your post.

Lackey

Is there any body you could report this witch doctor to?
Disgraceful taking advantage of someone in such a vulnerable state by taking their money, never mind putting their health at risk.

CathyMoran

OP I do relate to where you are coming from, I have a science background myself and would have a particular knowledge of food science. I am also a cancer survivor though. Is there any way that you can just avoid talking about those food related issues. Hope is a great thing when you are fighting this and I know that I would not be here had my spouse not dragged me through this sometimes kicking and screaming.