Rules question re wrong ball

Dtoffee

On a par 5, Player A hits his drive down the left rough and Player b does the same. Players c and d are straight up the middle. Upon arriving at the location of player A & B balls, player B declairs he has found his ball, but Player A cannot find his. Less than 5 mins is spent looking as Player A says to play on because hes not walking back to the tee box. Players B,C and D play their second shots and all four walk on.
The three then play their thirds shots and player b goes into a greenside bunker. Upon arrival and going into the bunker to play his fourth shot, player B announces that it is not his ball in the bunker. Upon inspection, it turns out to be player A's original drive that player B had claimed to be his and played up the fairway. Obviously player B is now out of the hole, but he tells player A that he is also out as his 5 minutes were up ages ago ! this was backed up by player C, but player D though he could go back and play the ball as he had done nothing wrong (2/2 stalemate)

Whats the situation with player A, his ball was claimed by player B and he was forced to believe he had lost his ball ...... could he go back and play the shot as the ball was not lost in the first place ? or is the 5 min rule the deciding factor ?

HighLine

That's an interesting one. I think the following decision (last paragraph) answers it. Seems fairly unjust in my opinion.

27/6 Player Unable to Find His Ball Because Another Player Played It
Q. A and B hit their tee shots into the same general area. A found a ball and played it. B went forward to look for his ball and could not find it. After a few minutes, B started back to the tee to put another ball into play. On the way, he found A's ball and knew then that A had played his (B's) ball in error. What is the ruling?

A. In match play, A lost the hole (Rule 15-3a).

In stroke play, A incurred a penalty of two strokes for playing a wrong ball and must then play his own ball (Rule 15-3b). A's ball was not lost even if A and B had been searching for more than five minutes because A had not "begun to search for it (his ball)"; the searching had been for B's ball - see Definition of "Lost Ball."

On the other hand, B began to search for his ball as soon as he went forward to look for it. If less than five minutes had elapsed before B found A's ball, B should have placed a ball on the spot from which A had wrongly played his (B's) ball and continued play, without penalty - see last paragraph of Rule 15-3b. However, if five minutes had expired, B's original ball was lost and he was obliged to put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

bobster453

Player A is the only one who can declare his ball lost.Regardless of the five minutes allowance once he has declared the ball lost it cannot then be found.
Or have i got it wrong?
The rulings as regards Player B are as previously posted

HighLine

bobster453 wrote: »

Player A is the only one who can declare his ball lost.Regardless of the five minutes allowance once he has declared the ball lost it cannot then be found.
Or have i got it wrong?
The rulings as regards Player B are as previously posted

No one can ever declare a ball lost, regardless of what he/she says.

A ball is deemed to be lost if it is not found within 5 minutes, the player has put another ball into play, the player continues to plays his provisional past the point of where the approximate location of the initial ball was thought to be etc.

Green Peter

Player A should stand on player B's ball at the next available opportunity!

Dtoffee

Thanks Highline, as you say its a bit unjust because how many of us question a player who claims to have identified his ball :rolleyes:

The Rape of Lucretia

Are you sure you have thatb right guys ?
A's ball was found within the 5 mins by B, even though B then played it. So the ball was not lost (whatever A said about 'declaring' it lost). So A, on finding his ball in the bunker after B hit it, and it having been found within 5 mins before B hit it, is entitled to go back and play his second from where B hit it.

Dtoffee

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Are you sure you have thatb right guys ?
A's ball was found within the 5 mins by B, even though B then played it. So the ball was not lost (whatever A said about 'declaring' it lost). So A, on finding his ball in the bunker after B hit it, and it having been found within 5 mins before B hit it, is entitled to go back and play his second from where B hit it.

A was looking for a ball that was not actually lost, but found and wrongly identified by opponent B who mistakenly claimed it was his ball.

B then proceeded to play the wrong ball twice and only when he was in a greenside bunker about to play it a third time, did he realise his mistake and call the foul .... this was well over the 5 minutes. 'A' did not find the ball in the bunker and he had given up looking as he walked up unaware that B was playing with his ball.

CalamariFritti

While that's true it was impossible for player A to ever find the ball since player B had it incorrectly advanced.

The only thing you could pin on player A is tat he didn't verify player B's statement. But in reality that would be bad etiquette.

ronjo

This is the sort of crap that surely puts people off golf.

A did absolutely nothing wrong. B played As ball and then tried to stop A from continuing.
What sort of person does this??
If I was B I would be totally ashamed at playing the wrong ball and certainly wouldnt be then trying to ruin As game.

Golf365

Players A ball was not lost, you cannot declare your ball lost.
Player B should have returned to the spot where he played Players A ball and placed it as close as possible to where he hit it.
Player B now penalised 2 strokes for playing wrong ball & has to go back to Teebox if he wishes to continue hole .

Dtoffee

Golf365 wrote: »

Players A ball was not lost, you cannot declare your ball lost.
Player B should have returned to the spot where he played Players A ball and placed it as close as possible to where he hit it.
Player B now penalised 2 strokes for playing wrong ball & has to go back to Teebox if he wishes to continue hole .

That was my reading of the situation as well, but players B and C both cited the 5 minute rule .... rather than cause more delay and hassle, player A decided to walk on. It was an awkward situation and something I certainly felt uncomfortable with, hence I brought the subject up here to see if the 5 minute rule applies to balls that are mistakenly claimed and played by the wrong player.

Seve OB

Dtoffee wrote: »

That was my reading of the situation as well, but players B and C both cited the 5 minute rule .... rather than cause more delay and hassle, player A decided to walk on. It was an awkward situation and something I certainly felt uncomfortable with, hence I brought the subject up here to see if the 5 minute rule applies to balls that are mistakenly claimed and played by the wrong player.

What you should have done was insist to continue as per Golf365 and played out the hole and marked your score appropriately (with no penalty IMO).

You could then check the ruling in the proshop after your round but before signing your card.

Senna

Seve OB wrote: »

What you should have done was insist to continue as per Golf365 and played out the hole and marked your score appropriately (with no penalty IMO).

You could then check the ruling in the proshop after your round but before signing your card.

Great advice for nearly all disagreements on the rules in normal comps, but in matchplay, is it better to attempt to get a definitive answer before the next hole, or can you continue and find out at the end?

Seve OB

Senna wrote: »

Great advice for nearly all disagreements on the rules in normal comps, but in matchplay, is it better to attempt to get a definitive answer before the next hole, or can you continue and find out at the end?

nothing here to suggest that this was a matchplay situation.
but as far as i know, yes, it is always fine to continue and find out at the end. always going to be a bit trickier in matchplay..... are you 1 up? are you 1 down... is it all square!!!...... irrelevant of course if there are a few holes in it, but play it like you won it, and worry about loosing it later on!

martinkop

If it was matchplay Player B loses the hole for playing wrong ball. Rul15-3 a.

Also in R&A definition of lost ball "Time spent in playing a wrong ball is not counted in the five-minute period allowed for search", so therefore OP, player A is entitled to go back and play, and even player B can go back and continue looking for his ball, with a 2 shot penalty added of course.

HighLine

martinkop wrote: »

If it was matchplay Player B loses the hole for playing wrong ball. Rul15-3 a.

Also in R&A definition of lost ball "Time spent in playing a wrong ball is not counted in the five-minute period allowed for search", so therefore OP, player A is entitled to go back and play, and even player B can go back and continue looking for his ball, with a 2 shot penalty added of course.

That definition implies that the time spent by a player playing a wrong ball himself rather than another player.

Besides, I quoted to relevant decision at post #2 which contradicts what you just said above.

Golf365

Putting distinctive markings ( initials ) on your golf ball reduces incidents of 'Playing the wrong ' ball. I don't understand why competitive golfers wouldn't put a number of 'Markings' on their golf ball.

FixdePitchmark

Golf365 wrote: »

Putting distinctive markings ( initials ) on your golf ball reduces incidents of 'Playing the wrong ' ball. I don't understand why competitive golfers wouldn't put a number of 'Markings' on their golf ball.

Because we lose loads of them and use random ones from your bag and finds , you can't find your sharpie , your bag is a mess and the kids have to be picked up on the way to football and ballet.

Your already 5 minutes late and your partners are waiting on the putting green.

Your clubs have not even been cleaned in a month - I think marking every ball as you get it - is dream like for some chaotic lives

On a serious note - I actaully prefer no markings - maybe a different colour number would be it.

I guess above means you are not a competitive golfer so.

Dtoffee

Golf365 wrote: »

Putting distinctive markings ( initials ) on your golf ball reduces incidents of 'Playing the wrong ' ball. I don't understand why competitive golfers wouldn't put a number of 'Markings' on their golf ball.

Player A had marked his ball with a blue line and a dot, but player B claimed he didnt see it ! :rolleyes:

Senna

Can't believe the rules would allow another player to interfere with your ball and you get penalized.

The Rape of Lucretia

So the following would be fully correct according to the rules of golf then :
- opponents both hit their balls into the rough
- player A finds, and clearly identifies player B's ball
- player A flings player B's ball into impenetrably thick rough where it will never be found
- player A incurs a one shot penalty for touching his opponents ball while not searching for or identifying it
- player B cannot find his ball withing 5 min, so must go back to the tee to play his 3rd.
- player A plays his third from where he finds his

Player A has fully rules legally, wangled himself a one shot advantage. Praise is always given to players using the rules to their advantage however odd that rules of golf may seem at times.

?

Seve OB

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

So the following would be fully correct according to the rules of golf then :
- opponents both hit their balls into the rough
- player A finds, and clearly identifies player B's ball
- player A flings player B's ball into impenetrably thick rough where it will never be found
- player A incurs a one shot penalty for touching his opponents ball while not searching for or identifying it
- player B cannot find his ball withing 5 min, so must go back to the tee to play his 3rd.
- player A plays his third from where he finds his

Player A has fully rules legally, wangled himself a one shot advantage. Praise is always given to players using the rules to their advantage however odd that rules of golf may seem at times.

?

There is using the rules to your advantage.......... And then there is cheating!

ShivasIrons

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

So the following would be fully correct according to the rules of golf then :
- opponents both hit their balls into the rough
- player A finds, and clearly identifies player B's ball
- player A flings player B's ball into impenetrably thick rough where it will never be found
- player A incurs a one shot penalty for touching his opponents ball while not searching for or identifying it
- player B cannot find his ball withing 5 min, so must go back to the tee to play his 3rd.
- player A plays his third from where he finds his

Player A has fully rules legally, wangled himself a one shot advantage. Praise is always given to players using the rules to their advantage however odd that rules of golf may seem at times.

?

Player A has not complied with the rules, he would be disqualified certainly under rule 1-4 equity, if not others

Hoof Hearted2

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

So the following would be fully correct according to the rules of golf then :
- opponents both hit their balls into the rough
- player A finds, and clearly identifies player B's ball
- player A flings player B's ball into impenetrably thick rough where it will never be found
- player A incurs a one shot penalty for touching his opponents ball while not searching for or identifying it
- player B cannot find his ball withing 5 min, so must go back to the tee to play his 3rd.
- player A plays his third from where he finds his

Player A has fully rules legally, wangled himself a one shot advantage. Praise is always given to players using the rules to their advantage however odd that rules of golf may seem at times.

?

Are you player A? I've give you an kick in the nuts and you'd learn to behave yourself pretty quickly:D:pac: