The Classic crop 2017

tryfix

Thought we could do with a thread on next year's Classic prospects while the 2yo pecking order is being established.

I can't have Caravaggio for the Guineas, the Scat Daddy's in Europe have been disappointing 3yos and this big fellow looks very precocious to me.

Wasn't a great fan of Churchill but he's been improving with racing and is on breeding likely to train on. Looks to be the best 2,000 Guineas prospect out so far.

Mehmas is off to the breeding shed in 2017.

Really like the class displayed by Blue Point and Rivet looks good. Escobar's looked great but the collateral form means that he's still got plenty to prove.

The fillies are up in the air at this stage and you could do worse than take the 25/1 on Joseph O Brien's Intricately or John Oxx's Sea Of Grace for the 1,000 Guineas because Queen Kindly has stamina doubts and Coolmore's legions are hard to sort through.

Roger Charlton seems to be a big believer in his two Frankel's, he thinks there's more to come from Fair Eva and is very sweet on Atty Persse.

It could be the year of Dubawi because he has some really well bred 2yos out so far ( 10 winners ) with more to come and they're great long term prospects.

Lt Dan

tryfix wrote: »

Thought we could do with a thread on next year's Classic prospects while the 2yo pecking order is being established.

I can't have Caravaggio for the Guineas, the Scat Daddy's in Europe have been disappointing 3yos and this big fellow looks very precocious to me.

Wasn't a great fan of Churchill but he's been improving with racing and is on breeding likely to train on. Looks to be the best 2,000 Guineas prospect out so far.

Mehmas is off to the breeding shed in 2017.

Really like the class displayed by Blue Point and Rivet looks good. Escobar's looked great but the collateral form means that he's still got plenty to prove.

The fillies are up in the air at this stage and you could do worse than take the 25/1 on Joseph O Brien's Intricately or John Oxx's Sea Of Grace for the 1,000 Guineas because Queen Kindly has stamina doubts and Coolmore's legions are hard to sort through.

Roger Charlton seems to be a big believer in his two Frankel's, he thinks there's more to come from Fair Eva and is very sweet on Atty Persse.

It could be the year of Dubawi because he has some really well bred 2yos out so far ( 10 winners ) with more to come and they're great long term prospects.

Where is Godolpin getting it wrong? Darley own Cape Cross, AND Dubwai. New Approach has been okay , and they have Slade Power and Golden Horn to follow.

Still buying other people's horses and they have mixed results.

John Ferguson, to be fair has changed this around a little so far

Wicklow Brave

Caravaggio won't even run in the Guineas imo. They'll keep him over 6f. Unless they ran him in the Greenham maybe. Churchill will be their number one. We'll learn a lot about the 2 yos over the next month now with all the big Group races coming up at Newmarket and in France and the RP Trophy.

I do really like War Decree, loved his run at Goodwood.

tryfix

Lt Dan wrote: »

Where is Godolpin getting it wrong? Darley own Cape Cross, AND Dubwai. New Approach has been okay , and they have Slade Power and Golden Horn to follow.

Still buying other people's horses and they have mixed results.

John Ferguson, to be fair has changed this around a little so far

Hard to figure them out, if you think about what Godolphin is then the European racing scene's importance to them has been receding over the years. They have a truly global operation and don't throw all their effort into the European scene unlike Coolmore who run the cream of their operation through Ireland.

A few years ago I noticed that Godolphin were racing too many Cup type horse, their homebred pedigrees were seemingly too stamina laden and they were unwilling to buy into the successful Coolmore stallions lines that were dominating much of the racing in Europe. Even now when Coolmore are running 50+? Galileo colts per crop and supplementing that with million dollar War Front Colts by the dozen what exactly are Godolphin firing back?

IIRC the majority of Dubawi's are running for other owners and the New Approaches aren't as good as the first crop promised they'd be. They've a good few Shamardal's and do well with them, but Shamardal himself has only a total of 12 Gp1 winners in his career so he ain't going to raise Godolphin to its former glory in Europe.

When you think of Juddmonte or Coolmore siblings to their top performers you think wow what great families, when ye think of Godolphin ye don't really get anything near the same concept of blue hen type families.

Peintre Celebre

Says a fair bit about Godolphin that the best stallions they have in Ireland are both by Coolmore sires yet won't use them

Lt Dan

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

Says a fair bit about Godolphin that the best stallions they have in Ireland are both by Coolmore sires yet won't use them

Why? Ego? Trying to dominate on his own with his own horses? Fell out with the lads?

They would have made a killing and enjoyed prestige in NAtional Hunt circles if they (well, the Sheikh) kept their horses King's Theatre & Fleminsfirth etc for National Hunt breeding and of course, kept a hold of Istrabrak for Jumping. Hindsight is always super of course

Haven't read it, but apparently Darley are now cutting down their bloodstock and getting their act together, as per Racing Post. Smart call. Focus is key, I think John Ferguson is working wonders so far. The open cheque to other owners has to stop, the Sheikh was seen as a mug. http://www.racingpost.com/news/live.sd?event_id=20088424&category=0

This purchasing of other horses , even just to win a race like Melbourne, has not being successful. Was it worth it? Toormore? Night of Thunder , well that was okay , got a Group 1 out of it and who knows what he will do as a sire? Then there was Home of the Brave, why? I use to dread when they bought up Bolger's horses, felt like there would be a Godolpin curse on them. Dawn Approach running in the Derby despite Bolger's prior warning :rolleyes: Death of poor auld Trading Leather (unlucky)

Every other big breeder / owners has no qualms with using rivals goods. Worked grand from Juddmonte, Coolmore got Power and Juddmonte got Frankel.

Lt Dan

tryfix wrote: »

Hard to figure them out, if you think about what Godolphin is then the European racing scene's importance to them has been receding over the years. They have a truly global operation and don't throw all their effort into the European scene unlike Coolmore who run the cream of their operation through Ireland.

A few years ago I noticed that Godolphin were racing too many Cup type horse, their homebred pedigrees were seemingly too stamina laden and they were unwilling to buy into the successful Coolmore stallions lines that were dominating much of the racing in Europe. Even now when Coolmore are running 50+? Galileo colts per crop and supplementing that with million dollar War Front Colts by the dozen what exactly are Godolphin firing back?

IIRC the majority of Dubawi's are running for other owners and the New Approaches aren't as good as the first crop promised they'd be. They've a good few Shamardal's and do well with them, but Shamardal himself has only a total of 12 Gp1 winners in his career so he ain't going to raise Godolphin to its former glory in Europe.

When you think of Juddmonte or Coolmore siblings to their top performers you think wow what great families, when ye think of Godolphin ye don't really get anything near the same concept of blue hen type families.

It is kinda working for Godolpin though. They are doing pretty well in America with horses like Frosted and of course Australia has been good to them. They unlike Coolmore, are not from Europe so maybe that might explain a little? I assume , rightly, you will say nonsense, considering the fun Coolmore had with sires like Danehill in Australia and the "lesser lights" of Aidan's yard doing well when sent to America and recently, Australia for the big ones. Would Godolpin be so busy running a lot of their horses in America and Australia if Coolmore were not so dominant in Europe? Hell even Fabre had a couple of decent Coolmore horses in the past.

tryfix

A 10L winner of a 2yo race at Newmarket is something that should go in the notebook, particularly when it's one as well bred as Sobetsu from a yard ( Charlie Appleby ) that's going places.

After finishing a close and running on 3rd on her debut after not getting a clear run behind Michael Stoute's decent filly Spatial, she went and blew the opposition away today.

By Dubawi out of a Darshaan mare who herself was out a Sadler's Wells mating to Doff The Derby the dam of the mighty dual Derby and King George winning Generous. There's a slight concern that 10f might be her trip but that's allayed by her DI of 0.60. She's the best Oaks prospect that I've seen at this stage.

Also the Balding stable is in cracking form with its 2yos so it may be a good idea to think outside of the Coolmore box when it comes to next year's classic prospects.

RoyalAcademy2

I was amazed to see that Sheikh Mo got his hands on a daughter of Doff The Derby tryfix-well spotted.

My guess is the Nagle's (Barronstown) sold her to Japanese clients in the mid 90's and Godolphin picked her up around 2000 from Shinkoh Farm for, I guess, ten kings' ransoms. It's taken a while to get a dividend from her foals and grand nieces but - as with most purple pedigrees - it eventually comes around. I'd say it's decades since Coolmore released a pedigree such as this to anyone!

Looking at the covering history of the second dam (under Darley etc) from 2001 to 2013 you can see perhaps, in the absence of Coolmore stallions at home or abroad, why the page has been so quiet, so far.