IT - DB customers should go on strike too

lil5

Caveat: Dublin Bus customers should go on strike too -
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/caveat-dublin-bus-customers-should-go-on-strike-too-1.2784507

...
But the real problem, the core frustration, is that it is so typical of my experience of the service. It is death by a thousand missed appointments.
I now expect Dublin Bus to make me late, or to not show up at all, or for its “real-time” boards to be complete works of fiction, or to be passed by an “out of order” bus that is clearly nothing of the sort.
And I believe my frustration is typical of many Dublin Bus users. Check out the company’s hopping Twitter feed for proof.
...
The striking drivers may or may not have a case over pay. But when a deal is eventually done – inevitably including so-called productivity measures – could somebody please ensure that one of those measures addresses the quality, and proper measurement of, its customer service?
Your customers: you remember who they are, surely?

Roadhawk

lil5 wrote: »

Caveat: Dublin Bus customers should go on strike too -
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/caveat-dublin-bus-customers-should-go-on-strike-too-1.2784507

I think its a great idea for the DB customers to go on strike too.

DB provides a service and unless that service is practically flawless then there should be no pay increment regardless of what they are due. Customer satisfaction must come first and that is the only area that should be invested in. DB customers should find alternative ways to commute and avoid using a bus. This might put things into perspective for the drivers.

magicbastarder

On the flipside, you can argue that underpaid drivers won't - and possibly shouldn't - provide a flawless service. Employment has to be a mutually beneficial affair. Phased performance based increments may be the way to go, but there may be a valid argument that circumstances outside of the drivers control - such as Dublin's infrastructure and traffic - means they cannot provide a flawless service.

hmmm

magicbastarder wrote: »

On the flipside, you can argue that underpaid drivers won't - and possibly shouldn't - provide a flawless service.

You could argue that, if only they were underpaid, which they aren't.

Drivers are paid to provide a service. If they don't like it, they can get another job.

I know you're going to argue this, but it's a simple concept that every other worker has to deal with. If you don't like your job, get another job. If you think you should be paid the same as a LUAS driver, apply to become a LUAS driver.

Roadhawk

hmmm wrote: »

You could argue that, if only they were underpaid, which they aren't.

Drivers are paid to provide a service. If they don't like it, they can get another job.

I know you're going to argue this, but it's a simple concept that every other worker has to deal with. If you don't like your job, get another job. If you think you should be paid the same as a LUAS driver, apply to become a LUAS driver.

Completely agree with you hmmm, they are clearly well paid. just because its not in line with another mode of transport is completely irrelevant and ridiculous.

http://www.newstalk.com/How-do-Dublin-Bus-drivers-wages-compare-against-European-counterparts

Dub13

Looks to me to be a management issue. The 83 does not have enough time to complete its trip. Give it more time job done. Cant blame the drivers for this.

devnull

Dub13 wrote: »

Looks to me to be a management issue. The 83 does not have enough time to complete its trip. Give it more time job done. Cant blame the drivers for this.

And paying the drivers more fixes that issue how?

Other than diverting money away from spending on improving the service to their back pockets?

Dub13

devnull wrote: »

And paying the drivers more fixes that issue how?

Who said it does...? The whole article is about how often this bus is late. That is 100% not down to the driver. That is the one and only point I made on this.

LXFlyer

Dub13 wrote: »

Who said it does...? The whole article is about how often this bus is late. That is 100% not down to the driver. That is the one and only point I made on this.

I assume we are discussing the Irish Times article on the 83.

As I posted already the LUAS works are playing havoc with schedules.

Some days the bus will make it to the terminus with time to spare, other days it'll make it bang on time, and other days it will be horribly late.

Extending running times means a requirement for additional buses to maintain existing service levels. New buses are only delivered once a year - you can't simply magic them into existence.

While some routes have seen frequency increases, many of the additional buses that have entered the fleet in recent years (roughly 40) have been used for this precise purpose - to maintain existing service levels on routes through the city centre by extending the running times.

But there's only so many other buses to go around.

The only other option is schedule cuts.

Banjoxed

lxflyer wrote: »

I assume we are discussing the Irish Times article on the 83.

As I posted already the LUAS works are playing havoc with schedules.

Some days the bus will make it to the terminus with time to spare, other days it'll make it bang on time, and other days it will be horribly late.

Extending running times means a requirement for additional buses to maintain existing service levels. New buses are only delivered once a year - you can't simply magic them into existence.

While some routes have seen frequency increases, many of the additional buses that have entered the fleet in recent years (roughly 40) have been used for this precise purpose - to maintain existing service levels on routes through the city centre by extending the running times.

But there's only so many other buses to go around.

The only other option is schedule cuts.

Bad Luas. Bad, bad Luas. :rolleyes:

In reality, in the many years I lived in and around Dublin there were two modes of transport I avoided unless absolutely necessary - Taxis and Dublin Bus.

The unwanted opinions of one and the brutal slowness of the other meant that if you saw me in either, every other option had been exhausted.

dowlingm

Roadhawk wrote: »

DB provides a service and unless that service is practically flawless then there should be no pay increment regardless of what they are due.

Even taking away the issue that workers cannot deliver a service if they don't have the means/facilities to do so, can you name a city/service which could be described as flawless?

Banjoxed

dowlingm wrote: »

Even taking away the issue that workers cannot deliver a service if they don't have the means/facilities to do so, can you name a city/service which could be described as flawless?

It isn't flawless but Edinburgh comes close in terms of service and cost to the passenger.

I get a bit cheesed off when we are supposed to accept things as they are in Ireland.

LXFlyer

Banjoxed wrote: »

Bad Luas. Bad, bad Luas. :rolleyes:

In reality, in the many years I lived in and around Dublin there were two modes of transport I avoided unless absolutely necessary - Taxis and Dublin Bus.

The unwanted opinions of one and the brutal slowness of the other meant that if you saw me in either, every other option had been exhausted.

Frankly speaking the route chosen for the LUAS is the worst possible considering the negative impact it has on the far greater number of bus passengers that are being discommoded by the longer journey times that have resulted, and the now proposed permanent bus route changes that will again mean slower journeys through the city centre over those prior to the LUAS works.

You can joke about it all you like - but more bus passengers are losing out than LUAS passengers are gaining from all of this.

Anyone who has to commute on a cross-city bus service won't quite share your humour.

Banjoxed

lxflyer wrote: »

Frankly speaking the route chosen for the LUAS is the worst possible considering the negative impact it has on the far greater number of bus passengers that are being discommoded by the longer journey times that have resulted, and the now proposed permanent bus route changes that will again mean slower journeys through the city centre over those prior to the LUAS works.

You can joke about it all you like - but more bus passengers are losing out than LUAS passengers are gaining from all of this.

Anyone who has to commute on a cross-city bus service won't quite share your humour.

But sure it was Dublin Bus who insisted on the round the houses route in the first place! Jeez lads but there's a limit to spin.

LXFlyer

Banjoxed wrote: »

But sure it was Dublin Bus who insisted on the round the houses route in the first place! Jeez lads but there's a limit to spin.

No they didn't.

I am not trying to spin anything.

LeinsterDub

lxflyer wrote: »

As I posted already the LUAS works are playing havoc with schedules.

Some days the bus will make it to the terminus with time to spare, other days it'll make it bang on time, and other days it will be horribly late.

And yet Google can tell me down to the minute how long my journey will be unless less there is a crash or other unexpected event on the route.

devnull

LeinsterDub wrote: »

And yet Google can tell me down to the minute how long my journey will be unless less there is a crash or other unexpected event on the route.

Lot more variables in driving a bus than a car.

LXFlyer

LeinsterDub wrote: »

And yet Google can tell me down to the minute how long my journey will be unless less there is a crash or other unexpected event on the route.

And your point is?

Once a bus on a cross-city route reaches the black hole that is the city centre LUAS works area, any system is going to be stretched to the absolute limit as the conditions change every day.

I would suggest that you park yourself for about an hour some day during peak hour around the triangle of Westmoreland St, College Street and D'Olier Street and actually watch what happens.

Banjoxed

lxflyer wrote: »

No they didn't.

I am not trying to spin anything.

From the Luas BXD business plan:

The preferred alignment for Luas Line BXD was confirmed as the preferred route following a multi-criteria analysis of all feasible routes and taking account of the views expressed by major stakeholders and interested parties during the public consultation process.

LeinsterDub

devnull wrote: »

Lot more variables in driving a bus than a car.

5 years of real time information to analyse

strandroad

Please, DB was unreliable long before Luas works and will be long after. I'm on a short local route far away from any works and I can't use the bus because of its habit of not showing up.

LXFlyer

Banjoxed wrote: »

From the Luas BXD business plan:

That does not say that Dublin Bus were in favour of it.

That just says that the RPA made their decision after a consultation.

LXFlyer

mhge wrote: »

Please, DB was unreliable long before Luas works and will be long after. I'm on a short local route far away from any works and I can't use the bus because of its habit of not showing up.

If you are trying to tell me that the situation prior to these works was on a par with today - I'm sorry but that just isn't the case.

I have used (on a daily basis for the past seven months) a cross city route and two orbital routes to and from work.

The two orbital routes have been pretty much arriving at the same time every day (allowing for seasonal traffic changes).

The cross-city route has been extraordinarily variable in the evening (I'm boarding after it would have gone through the city centre) - I've never seen regular variations of this magnitude before. And I'm saying this as someone who has commuted across the city centre for four years prior to these works.

I'm not doubting that there are other routes that have running time issues but the cross-city routes have had to cope with crazy variations in traffic patterns through the city since these works started.

LXFlyer

LeinsterDub wrote: »

5 years of real time information to analyse

I'm not sure that's much help in the current situation, which as I've said above, changes every day?

end of the road

hmmm wrote: »

You could argue that, if only they were underpaid, which they aren't.

Drivers are paid to provide a service. If they don't like it, they can get another job.

I know you're going to argue this, but it's a simple concept that every other worker has to deal with. If you don't like your job, get another job. If you think you should be paid the same as a LUAS driver, apply to become a LUAS driver.

or try and get a better deal in the job you are currently in, which is what the dublin bus drivers are rightly doing.

LeinsterDub

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm not sure that's much help in the current situation, which as I've said above, changes every day?

They should be able to take the delay the previous bus experienced the historical average delay and provide the user a decent guess. After 5 years of RPI the number of ghost buses is still unacceptably high.

LXFlyer

LeinsterDub wrote: »

They should be able to take the delay the previous bus experienced the historical average delay and provide the user a decent guess. After 5 years of RPI the number of ghost buses is still unacceptably high.

But that's not what we are talking about here - what's being talked about is the basic schedule, and the ability to deliver it.

In other words the running time that a bus has to get from one terminus to the other and buses departing their terminus on time. That varies on a daily basis and the impact of the LUAS works in the city centre has been massive.

RTPI is a separate issue.

LeinsterDub

lxflyer wrote: »

But that's not what we are talking about here - what's being talked about is the basic schedule, and the ability to deliver it.

In other words the running time that a bus has to get from one terminus to the other and buses departing their terminus on time.

RTPI is a separate issue.

It's not really thought people don't care when their bus leaves the terminus they want a bus every 20 minutes if possible and if not they want to know when their bus will actually turn up

LXFlyer

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It's not really thought people don't care when their bus leaves the terminus they want a bus every 20 minutes if possible and if not they want to know when their bus will actually turn up

With respect you are not appreciating that this is still the issue of the basic schedule and the ability to deliver it through realistic running times, i.e. the length of time allowed in the schedule for a bus to get from one terminus to the other and to start the next journey.

You can have all the predictive RTPI systems you like, but if the basic running time isn't sufficient or is wildly variable, then the ability to deliver a reliable service goes out the window.

The suggestion is to increase running times. That means more vehicles (and drivers) are needed to deliver the same service frequency, or schedule frequency must otherwise be cut.

The point I'm making is that the ongoing LUAS works have meant that running times have become wildly variable, and what can work one day brilliantly might work just about another day and fail miserably the next. It is almost an impossible task to predict how long cross-city bus routes will take to get from one terminus to the other due to the constantly varying traffic conditions in the city centre.

Banjoxed

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect you are not appreciating that this is still the issue of the basic schedule and the ability to deliver it through realistic running times, i.e. the length of time allowed in the schedule for a bus to get from one terminus to the other and to start the next journey.

You can have all the predictive RTPI systems you like, but if the basic running time isn't sufficient or is wildly variable, then the ability to deliver a reliable service goes out the window.

The suggestion is to increase running times. That means more vehicles (and drivers) are needed to deliver the same service frequency, or schedule frequency must otherwise be cut.

The point I'm making is that the ongoing LUAS works have meant that running times have become wildly variable, and what can work one day brilliantly might work just about another day and fail miserably the next. It is almost an impossible task to predict how long cross-city bus routes will take to get from one terminus to the other due to the constantly varying traffic conditions in the city centre.

I lived near the National Stadium for years and can assure readers of this board that without even the Luas being thought of a bus journey to O'Connell Bridge routed via part of the 83 route could take anything from thirty five minutes to an hour depending on traffic. Bus lanes made very little impact on those travel times.

I am reminded of the late Rudi Monahan's continuous assertions that Dublin would 'never recover' from the Red and Green line works.

newacc2015

Dub13 wrote: »

Looks to me to be a management issue. The 83 does not have enough time to complete its trip. Give it more time job done. Cant blame the drivers for this.

I agree and disagree. I find when you complain to management on DB about late buses, they will either lie or give you a half baked answer. I was told my bus was constantly running late due to Christmas Shopping due to the extra traffic in the City. The customer service agent didnt seem to find it funny when I asked him since when does Christmas Shopping start in mid October?

I find with DB the customer service agents cover the drivers asses on everything. I complained that three buses were coming at once on my route. I was told that isnt correct, they checked the log and that was not happening. Eventually with some arguing the customer service agent admitted the buses were being bunched together, but that was due to them getting delayed due to traffic, which is utter BS as this was at 7.30am when there is little traffic in the City. After a week of constantly emailing the same agent to justify why three buses were still being bunched gradually the three buses started to come at their proper times. Gradually after a few months the buses started to bunch again and when I started emailing DB again, the bunching stopped

There needs to be accountability in DB. When you complain to a company about their service or lack of, they company needs to accept the feedback and improve. DB often dismisses the feedback

snickerpuss

I have to agree, I get a cross city bus every morning and it is impossible to tell how long it will take to get around College Green. Some mornings it's 5 mins others it's 30.

People are fairly intolerant of this but there are variables whether you like it or not. I had to laugh seeing people complain that DARTs were arriving a few mins late yesterday morning. The bus strike is on and there were people pushing on to the trains and standing in the doorway meaning the doors couldn't shut. Of course they were delayed.

Roadhawk

dowlingm wrote: »

Even taking away the issue that workers cannot deliver a service if they don't have the means/facilities to do so, can you name a city/service which could be described as flawless?

Seoul and Singapore are two that jump to mind that i would consider flawless in comparison to any mode in Dublin.

In saying that my point is as soon as the drivers see DB is doing well financially they are on the band wagon, out striking, without taking into account that any revenue lost means they must recover which includes investing in new infrastructure and technology. If anything DB should just unfreeze the pay increment from now and continue as normal...not give the ridiculous increases sought. As it stands DB drivers are the 6th highest paid in Europe on average. So drivers in cities with higher populations, more traffic, more "stress" are paid less than Irish drivers? Where is the sanity?

magicbastarder

What actions do db drivers take to stop buses bunching? It's a straightforward process which causes it, just wondering is there any monitoring of it? Do the drivers get any info from rtpi about when the last bus of the same number passed a stop?

strandroad

magicbastarder wrote: »

What actions do db drivers take to stop buses bunching? It's a straightforward process which causes it, just wondering is there any monitoring of it? Do the drivers get any info from rtpi about when the last bus of the same number passed a stop?

Are they even supposed to? There are no stop timetables in Dublin (standard elsewhere, but then we are "different"). There is nothing to enforce the driver being at a particular stop at a particular time I think? They just need to leave the terminus on time and not together.

LXFlyer

There is a display in the driver's cab that indicates whether they are ahead of the timing estimates that drive the RTPI.

Drivers are "encouraged" to try to keep that to a minimum but as far as I'm aware there is nothing cast in stone.

Controllers can request a bus to wait at a stop, but clearly it would need to be somewhere that is safe to do so and where a bus does not cause an obstruction.

The physical driver duty boards just have the terminus departure times and any driver change-over times mid-route on them.

magicbastarder

mhge wrote: »

They just need to leave the terminus on time and not together.

Leaving the terminus at regular intervals is not the answer; buses will tend to bunch naturally. If one bus gets slightly ahead in traffic through random traffic fluctuations, it means passengers waiting for the next bus will have to wait a little longer - which means more passengers waiting, slowing it down, and allowing the bus being that to catch up with it, etc.

strandroad

magicbastarder wrote: »

Leaving the terminus at regular intervals is not the answer; buses will tend to bunch naturally. If one bus gets slightly ahead in traffic through random traffic fluctuations, it means passengers waiting for the next bus will have to wait a little longer - which means more passengers waiting, slowing it down, and allowing the bus being that to catch up with it, etc.

Absolutely. That's why stop timetables normally exist.

Roadhawk

magicbastarder wrote: »

Leaving the terminus at regular intervals is not the answer; buses will tend to bunch naturally. If one bus gets slightly ahead in traffic through random traffic fluctuations, it means passengers waiting for the next bus will have to wait a little longer - which means more passengers waiting, slowing it down, and allowing the bus being that to catch up with it, etc.

In the DB app there should be an option of choosing a bus number and tracking the ones in service on a map. This way you would nearly never have have to wait on a bus. you could track its progress as it approaches. Its actually a very easy addition to do. i presume that the buses have trackers fitted for other reasons. something like fleetmatics would be ideal.

IE 222

Why do people always compere DB drivers with drivers from other cities in Europe or around the world?

The cost of living is so much higher here than many of the places yous talk about. Conditions are different and job specs vary. Do you compere your pay rate with how much the person doing the same job as you in Poland gets, I don't think so

What sort of service do yous want or expect from a DB driver. I would of thought driving the bus in a safe and timely manner was good enough. In terms of delays or lates I don't think the driver has much to answer to as long as he arrives at his ROSTERED time at the garage on time, any delays after that are out of his hands. What sort of new customer service do yous think or want from a DRIVER they drive you from A to B, accept payment in a friendly manner what more could be asked of them. Yous must remember it's a public service not a 5 star luxury bus tour you are paying for.

Bunching of buses happens for many reasons. Traffic, customer demand, wheel chairs bad timetabling, slow customer loadings or simply not to be running out of service positioning buses which I'm sure you would complain even more about. Do yous really think it's 3 mates ignoring the timetable and starting together to have a race to the destination.

Id find it hard to believe that you wouldnt start complaining about buses waiting at stops for unnecessary lengths of time so they can arrive down the road 4 mins later ect. Stop timetables are an awful idea and wouldn't work on any city road transport system they would however serve a better purpose with long distance low frequency services like BE in rural towns.

Overall the issues raised here seem to be problems with road traffic systems, routing within dublin rather than a driver not performing to the best of his ability.

What DB mean in terms of extra requirements is more flexibility and a change to rosters. Again I'll ask anyone here that agreed to set working hours and days would they happily change them.

strandroad

IE 222 wrote: »

Stop timetables are an awful idea and wouldn't work on any city road transport system they would however serve a better purpose with long distance low frequency services like BE in rural towns.

I agree with the gist of your post but the above is simply not true. Dublin is actually the only one of many many cities I used public transport in that does not have stop timetables. It's a standard solution on the continent and their transport systems are in another class altogether to Dublin's, with predictability and reliability being a huge part of it, and no, vehicles are not idling between stops at all. You've been institutionalised!

XPS_Zero

Two totally different issues being discussed together here.

The service is crap and bus drivers are on strike ergo passengers should be annoyed ...at drivers?
Though I worry excessive PS pay demands have expectations set not in today but the bubblenomics of the tiger years and giving too much away will leave us fiscally vulnerable AGAIN when the next banking collapse happens (and it will, since no lessons were learned and all the same bad incentives are there)..,5% a year for three years isn't much to ask.

But more to the point DBs crap scructure is not drivers fault and they did cooperate with attempts to improve it which did work, like network direct. You can see that the management and NTA and govt are the real villains here for a few reasons:

•A subsidy falling like a led balloon cut yearly since I was in primary school

•Common sense suggestions in things like the various reports such as timetables on every bus stop telling you when it will approx get to THAT stop not when it leVes terminus which is useless...like suggesting the busses go right up to the Luas in Brides Glen instead of the ridiculous set up now where they dump you on the OPPOSITE side of the round about miles away, straightening out routes (which anti everything RBB and PBP are OF COURSE protesting...) etc

•Constantly rising fares (it's gone up each year as long as I can remember back, they ought to do an integrated zone system, then freeze fares for 7 years, there's been enough hikes.

•Going cashless at snails pace instead of just DOING it. This combined with straightened out routes would speed up journeys considerably.

You can see it when the free travel pass is brought up its same with this, whenever the Irish have an issue with a SYSTEMIC problem they immediately disengage their brains (after all thinking logically is too hard and unsatifying) and decide to think with their emotions instead. Beating up on some group that has nothing to do with said problem because that's more emotionally satisfying. It feels better to blame someone and bash an "other" than actually think intelligently about the problem.

trellheim

What DB mean in terms of extra requirements is more flexibility and a change to rosters. Again I'll ask anyone here that agreed to set working hours and days would they happily change them.

For more money ? Sure . That is what is on offer currently. You get more money if you put productivity on the table. There's an existing payrise there that people don't seem to want which has no productivity elements at all.

IE 222

mhge wrote: »

I agree with the gist of your post but the above is simply not true. Dublin is actually the only one of many many cities I used public transport in that does not have stop timetables. It's a standard solution on the continent and their transport systems are in another class altogether to Dublin's, with predictability and reliability being a huge part of it, and no, vehicles are not idling between stops at all. You've been institutionalised!

Services tend to run delayed in Dublin. Most of these cities will have proper continuous bus lanes, given to quicker journey times.

There must over 100 separate bus lanes in Dublin and in a lot of places only on one side of the road meaning a brake in flow is enviable. A lot easier to time services when you know they won't be impacted by private traffic. DB services tend to work housing estates or secondary roads as well before the city centre where other cities will run services on main roads and only detour slightly into residential areas to terminate.

These cities also have the majority of services running on 5 - 10 mins frequencies were Dublins population doesn't require such demand on the majority of services meaning buses should be naturally spaced.

Where do you suggest stopping should take place.

IE 222

trellheim wrote: »

For more money ? Sure . That is what is on offer currently. You get more money if you put productivity on the table. There's an existing payrise there that people don't seem to want which has no productivity elements at all.

But haven't had a pay rise in years and have even helped the company scale back on costs. The cost of living has gone up but yet wages remain the same as 200???. All they want is a raise to reflect what they have missed out on or would of been entitled to over the years of difficulty. As most other workers believe they are entitled to without having to change their contract or hours of work.

Many service industry retail companies and the government are milking this recession excuse now and IMO are using it to fill their own pockets cheaply. Most of these forgot about the changes and sacrifices employees made to help them in there need of help. Nearly 10 years later and we are still listing to survival plans.