Average water usage per house

gjb

[font=arial, sans-serif]Extract from [/font][font=verdana, sans-serif]http://www.newstalk.com/reader/47.301/70164/0/[/font]

[font=arial, sans-serif][font=verdana, sans-serif]"Average Irish person uses half the water previously estimated, says Irish Water"[/font][font=verdana, sans-serif]

"It had been estimated homes could be using up to 190 litres per person per day," she told the Pat Kenny Show on Newstalk.

"But it has emerged that 93% of households are only using about 250 litres per day, or just over 80 litres per person."[/font][/font]


[font=arial, sans-serif][font=verdana, sans-serif]Is there a document from Irish water to say what the average per house is to back up the above?[/font][/font]


[font=arial, sans-serif][font=verdana, sans-serif]Thanks [/font][/font]


[font=verdana, sans-serif]GJB[/font]

Irish Water: Allanah

Hi GJB,

Thanks for getting in touch.

We are currently looking into your query with the relevant department and will let you know as soon as we receive an update on this.

Thank you for your patience.

Kind regards,
Allanah

Going Forward

Irish Water: Allanah wrote: »

Hi GJB,

Thanks for getting in touch.

We are currently looking into your query with the relevant department and will let you know as soon as we receive an update on this.

Thank you for your patience.

Kind regards,
Allanah

Hi Allanah

Is there any update on this?

Seems to be going on a long time.

Kindest regards,

Going Forward 

Irish Water: Mairead

Hi Going Forward,

Going Forward wrote: »

Is there any update on this?

Seems to be going on a long time.

Kindest regards,

Going Forward 

The average usage documentation is currently still being compiled and once this has been been completed it will be announced publically.

We hope this helps.

Thanks,
Mairead

Going Forward

Irish Water: Mairead wrote: »

Hi Going Forward,

Going Forward wrote: »

Is there any update on this?

Seems to be going on a long time.

Kindest regards,

Going Forward 

The average usage documentation is currently still being compiled and once this has been been completed it will be announced publically.

We hope this helps.

Thanks,
Mairead

Hi Mairead,

Will the documentation include details of the water consumed by the industry and agriculture sectors connected to the public water supply?

When do you expect it to be published? 

Thanks again,

GF

Irish Water: Allanah

Hi GF,

Going Forward wrote: »

Will the documentation include details of the water consumed by the industry and agriculture sectors connected to the public water supply?

When do you expect it to be published?

Thanks again,

GF

Apologies for the delay.

Just so you are aware, we are currently looking into your query with the relevant department, and will contact you once we receive an update.

Thanks for your patience.

Kind regards,
Allanah

Going Forward

Irish Water: Allanah wrote: »

Hi GF,



Apologies for the delay.

Just so you are aware, we are currently looking into your query with the relevant department, and will contact you once we receive an update.

Thanks for your patience.

Kind regards,
Allanah

Hi Allanah,

Thanks for keeping us updated.

It's been 8 months since Newstalk published the original article, and 8 weeks since it was asked about here.

Can you progress this a little?

In the meantime, is it possible to confirm if details about water consumption by agriculture and industry will appear alongside household water usage in the forthcoming documentation you have referred to?

Thanks again for all your help,

GF.

Irish Water: Allanah

Hi gjb and GF,

Thanks for your patience while we looked into this matter with the relevant department.

gjb wrote: »

Is there a document from Irish water to say what the average per house is to back up the above?

The figure for domestic water usage for July 2016 258 litres per day, which is the most up to date data that is available, as our meter teams collate and process readings on a quarterly basis to track usage through our metering programme.

We are now collecting readings from over 780,000 homes, and usage in the 93% of homes without leaks has remained at an average of 250 litres over the last 18 months, with a slight seasonal variation of + / - 5% on the average. It has gone up a little in the summer and down again in the winter but within a very narrow range. The usage is not published in a specific document but is used to inform many elements of Irish Water's work.

Going Forward wrote: »

In the meantime, is it possible to confirm if details about water consumption by agriculture and industry will appear alongside household water usage in the forthcoming documentation you have referred to?

There are no plans at present to collect consumption by industry sector. Once non-domestic customers are fully migrated to Irish Water's billing system next year, a better picture of non-domestic consumption will be available.

I hope this information helps. Feel free to contact us again with any other queries you may have.

Kind regards,
Allanah

Going Forward

Irish Water: Allanah wrote: »

Hi gjb and GF,

Thanks for your patience while we looked into this matter with the relevant department.



The figure for domestic water usage for July 2016 258 litres per day, which is the most up to date data that is available, as our meter teams collate and process readings on a quarterly basis to track usage through our metering programme.

We are now collecting readings from over 780,000 homes, and usage in the 93% of homes without leaks has remained at an average of 250 litres over the last 18 months, with a slight seasonal variation of + / - 5% on the average. It has gone up a little in the summer and down again in the winter but within a very narrow range. The usage is not published in a specific document but is used to inform many elements of Irish Water's work.



There are no plans at present to collect consumption by industry sector. Once non-domestic customers are fully migrated to Irish Water's billing system next year, a better picture of non-domestic consumption will be available.

I hope this information helps. Feel free to contact us again with any other queries you may have.

Kind regards,
Allanah

Thanks so much Allanah.

Using that data we can see that the household sector is using just around 23% of all water produced by Irish Water.

And that agriculture, industry and leaks account for 76%.

1.5m households using 250 litres a day.

Irish Water produces 1.6bn litres a day.

Subtract the leakage rate from the 76% and you'll have the rate for non household consumption.

Kind regards,
GF

aido79

Irish Water: Allanah wrote: »

Hi gjb and GF,

Thanks for your patience while we looked into this matter with the relevant department.

gjb wrote: »

Is there a document from Irish water to say what the average per house is to back up the above?

The figure for domestic water usage for July 2016 258 litres per day, which is the most up to date data that is available, as our meter teams collate and process readings on a quarterly basis to track usage through our metering programme.

We are now collecting readings from over 780,000 homes, and usage in the 93% of homes without leaks has remained at an average of 250 litres over the last 18 months, with a slight seasonal variation of + / - 5% on the average. It has gone up a little in the summer and down again in the winter but within a very narrow range. The usage is not published in a specific document but is used to inform many elements of Irish Water's work.

Going Forward wrote: »

In the meantime, is it possible to confirm if details about water consumption by agriculture and industry will appear alongside household water usage in the forthcoming documentation you have referred to?

There are no plans at present to collect consumption by industry sector. Once non-domestic customers are fully migrated to Irish Water's billing system next year, a better picture of non-domestic consumption will be available.

I hope this information helps. Feel free to contact us again with any other queries you may have.

Kind regards,
Allanah

Hi Allananh,

I have a query regarding the figure of 80 litres per day per person. I realise that this is an average figure but seeing as a person having a shower would use around 80 litres this would suggest that the average person in Ireland does not shower every day. 

Now also given that the average person urinates 6 times a day and a toilet uses 6-10 litres per flush does this mean people have stopped flushing the toilet after each use to get down to this 80 litres a day average?

I'm just trying to use a common sense approach here, nothing for or against Irish Water, but the figures just don't make sense.

It's almost like Irish Water is setting the average usage low so that when a free allowance is introduced it can be set as low as possible and every home will exceed this allowance and a charge will be applied to all but the most frugal of water users. 

Any answers you can provide will be appreciated. 

Kind Regards,

Aido

CramCycle

You will find that those of us in the agricultural sector have been paying for water for years, presumably so have several industrial sectors. Long before Irish Water.

wildgreen

aido79 wrote: »

Now also given that the average person urinates 6 times a day and a toilet uses 6-10 litres per flush does this mean people have stopped flushing the toilet after each use to get down to this 80 litres a day average?

Toilet flushes by employees at work etc. are not included in the Irish Water figures so you need to make an adjustment for water use outside of the home in evaluating the accuracy of the figures. Given that they are based on actual meter reads, the figures per household should be very reliable. The number of persons living there, especially in a holiday month like July, is another matter.

aido79

wildgreen wrote: »

aido79 wrote: »

Now also given that the average person urinates 6 times a day and a toilet uses 6-10 litres per flush does this mean people have stopped flushing the toilet after each use to get down to this 80 litres a day average?

Toilet flushes by employees at work etc. are not included in the Irish Water figures so you need to make an adjustment for water use outside of the home in evaluating the accuracy of the figures. Given that they are based on actual meter reads, the figures per household should be very reliable. The number of persons living there, especially in a holiday month like July, is another matter.

That's true but in most cases Irish Water have no idea how many persons are living in the households because so many people refused to engage with them so I would not agree that the figures are accurate. The meter readings may be accurate for the household but if you don't know how many people are living in the house then the figures per person are just guesses. 
Even if a person was to only use their toilet 3 times a day...once before they go to work in the morning, once when they get home from work and once before bed that's almost half of a person's allowance. It also assumes that the average person doesn't shower every day(which would use up almost all of the 80 litres in most cases). 

wildgreen

Provided the meters and the automated reading process are working correctly then the starting figures for consumption per meter should be reliable. However Irish Water would need to provide more information on their methodology for us to really understand the figures. For example, have vacant and holiday homes been included in the calculations. If they have then the figure per occupied household could be 15% higher or around 290 litres per day. Include holidays etc. when the house is not being used and it could easily be 300.

Agreed that the per capita figures are much more uncertain especially if you try to factor in savings per person in households with more adults and children. I think children use less water on average but Irish Water have the figures so they would know whether this is true. Older people probably also use less water as many older houses may not have a shower and people of all ages with a physical disability may need assistance to use them. Apartments may also be excluded if they don't have their own meter.

Perhaps Allanah can give us more information on how the estimates were done?

Irish Water: Amy A

Hi wildgreen,

Thanks for your query.

We're currently looking into this with the relevant department, and will be in touch as soon as any updates become available. If there's anything else that we can help with in the meantime, feel free to ask.

Kind regards,
Amy

wildgreen

Irish Water: Amy wrote: »

Hi wildgreen,

Thanks for your query.

We're currently looking into this with the relevant department, and will be in touch as soon as any updates become available. If there's anything else that we can help with in the meantime, feel free to ask.

Kind regards,
Amy

Hi Amy
Thanks for update.
Kind regards
Wildgreen

Going Forward

Hi Allanah,

Irish Water now seems to be giving different figures to different people.

Last week it was reported in the media that:

Irish Water has sent figures to TDs showing that around one-third of households use more than the average of 123 litres per person per day.

http://www.newstalk.com/Dil-committee-to-hear-energy-regulators-call-for-automatic-rollout-of-water-meters-to-be-stopped

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/half-a-million-households-could-be-hit-with-water-bills-say-critics-772113.html


But you've told us here on boards.ie that 93% of metered households are consistently using the equivalent of around 80 litres per person per day.

Can you explain this discrepancy Allanah?

Kindest regards,

Going Forward

Irish Water: Amy A

Hi Going Forward,

We are following up with the relevant department in relation to your query, and will follow up as soon as any updates become available.

Thanks,
Amy

Going Forward

Irish Water: Amy wrote: »

Hi Going Forward,

We are following up with the relevant department in relation to your query, and will follow up as soon as any updates become available.

Thanks,
Amy

Hi Amy,

Just checking in to see if there is any update?

A couple of weeks have passed.

Thanks again,

Going Forward

Irish Water: Allanah

Hi Going Forward,

Going Forward wrote: »

Hi Amy,

Just checking in to see if there is any update?

A couple of weeks have passed.

Thanks again,

Going Forward

Apologies for the delay. We are still currently looking into this matter with the relevant department. We can ensure you that we are actively seeking an update in relation to this and will post this information once it is received.

Kind regards,
Allanah

Irish Water: Amy A

Hi Going Forward,

Thanks so much for your patience as we investigated this for you.

Please click here for more information regarding your query.

Kind regards,
Amy

Going Forward

Irish Water: Amy wrote: »

Hi Going Forward,

Thanks so much for your patience as we investigated this for you.

Please click here for more information regarding your query.

Kind regards,
Amy

Hi Amy,

Eh, no, I won't click there, thanks all the same.

I'll wait till you get an answer to my query from the relevant department.

Kind regards,

Going Forward

Kristopherus

Going Forward wrote: »

Irish Water: Amy wrote: »

Hi Going Forward,

Thanks so much for your patience as we investigated this for you.

Please click here for more information regarding your query.

Kind regards,
Amy

Hi Amy,

Eh, no, I won't click there, thanks all the same.

I'll wait till you get an answer to my query from the relevant department.

Kind regards,

Going Forward

Why not read the info on that link. It gives the info you seem to be looking for.

Irish Water: Allanah

Hi Going Forward,

Going Forward wrote: »

Eh, no, I won't click there, thanks all the same.

I'll wait till you get an answer to my query from the relevant department.

Kind regards,

Going Forward

The information on the link that we have provided above, is the most up to date information that we have in relation to consumption.

If you have any queries in regards to the information on the reports, please let us know.

Kind regards,
Allanah

Going Forward

Irish Water: Allanah wrote: »

Hi Going Forward,

Going Forward wrote: »

Eh, no, I won't click there, thanks all the same.

I'll wait till you get an answer to my query from the relevant department.

Kind regards,

Going Forward

The information on the link that we have provided above, is the most up to date information that we have in relation to consumption.

If you have any queries in regards to the information on the reports, please let us know.

Kind regards,
Allanah

Are you sure thats the right link?

It doesn't mention anything about TDs being given conflicting consumption figures a couple of weeks ago.

Thanks again, 

Going Forward 

CramCycle

Going Forward wrote: »

Are you sure thats the right link?

It doesn't mention anything about TDs being given conflicting consumption figures a couple of weeks ago.

Thanks again, 

Going Forward 

Maybe that is a question for the TD as the right info is in the link, just not where the TD got his info. Are you sure TD did not pull it out of the sky or mis-communicate the info they received.

Going Forward

CramCycle wrote: »

Maybe that is a question for the TD as the right info is in the link, just not where the TD got his info. Are you sure TD did not pull it out of the sky or mis-communicate the info they received.

A TD hasn't said it, so it's not a matter of them picking something up wrong as far as I can see.

I'm quoting what the newspapers and other news outlets have reported, that Irish Water supplied TDs with figures which don't match up with the figures at the start of this thread, that is that 93% of metered households are using the equivalent of 80 litres per person.

The media is claiming TDs have been sent the figures not a TD.



https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/half-a-million-households-could-be-hit-with-water-bills-say-critics-772113.html



http://www.newstalk.com/Dil-committee-to-hear-energy-regulators-call-for-automatic-rollout-of-water-meters-to-be-stopped

"Irish Water has sent figures to TDs showing that around one-third of households use more than the average of 123 litres per person per day."

Going Forward

Kristopherus wrote: »

Why not read the info on that link. It gives the info you seem to be looking for.

Whereabouts?

Would you be able to copy and paste the part you're talking about?

There's no mention of the 93% of households using the equivalent of 80 litres per person nor is their any mention of a third of households using more than 123 litres per person.

That's why I'm wondering if the wrong link has been supplied to the reps here by accident.

CramCycle

Going Forward wrote: »

Kristopherus wrote: »

Why not read the info on that link. It gives the info you seem to be looking for.

Whereabouts?

Would you be able to copy and paste the part you're talking about?

There's no mention of the 93% of households using the equivalent of 80 litres per person nor is their any mention of a third of households using more than 123 litres per person.

That's why I'm wondering if the wrong link has been supplied to the reps here by accident.

In your two news articles it is a TD claiming 123 litres, and that they got the numbers from Irish Water, not Irish Water saying they ent TDs that info. It is very possible that the TDs have mixed up the per household and per person info. Hence write to the TD quoted in both articles and ask can he forward on the info.

There is also the possibility that an error was made by Irish water, it does happen, maybe read through the link provided and see does that give you a definitive answer and then complain if it turns out this disagrees with the info the TD provides you.

Going Forward

CramCycle wrote: »

In your two news articles it is a TD claiming 123 litres, and that they got the numbers from Irish Water, not Irish Water saying they ent TDs that info. It is very possible that the TDs have mixed up the per household and per person info. Hence write to the TD quoted in both articles and ask can he forward on the info.

There is also the possibility that an error was made by Irish water, it does happen, maybe read through the link provided and see does that give you a definitive answer and then complain if it turns out this disagrees with the info the TD provides you.

So your analysis is that someone has made an error?

That's mine too.

That's why I've asked the utility about it through this channel.

It's their opportunity to clarify and put the record straight, if they feel they've been misrepresented in the media, as you and I seem to think they have been.

That's why I've asked the reps here to see if IW will clarify matters.


Sure, I can write to a TD but there's no guarantee of a response or that they'd even understand the point if they're not familiar with what Irish Water has already published here.

And all the reps have been given to give to us is quarterly sample reports which don't address the issue.

I know the reps are passing them on in good faith and don't expect them to have read them either, or get into an argument about it.

That's not their job after all.

Anyway, none of us are any the wiser, bar seemingly accepting that an error has been made by someone somewhere along the line.

And being asked to pick through lists of reports to identify it.

It's not a great way of doing things IMO.

Going Forward

Hello everyone,

Thanks for bearing with me on this.

Can boards look into this please?

Yesterday the average consumption figure being quoted by Irish Water jumped up from the 80 litres a day being quoted here on the strength of current data from 800k meters to 110 litres a day, a figure that's 3 years old and was arrived at from a survey of a couple of thousand meters.

".....when we exclude the 7% that are currently showing leaks the other 93% are only using approximately 110 litres per person...."

Source, yesterday's meeting of the JC On the Future of Domestic Water Funding:

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/committeetakes/FFJ2017021400002?opendocument#A00100

That's a difference of over 37%

Can someone, either on behalf of Irish Water or boards reconcile what is exactly is going on with the figures??


Thank you all so much,

Kindest regards,

Going Forward

ari_mbc

Hey Going Forward:

I am highly interested on the updates regarding these figures.  I, too, have been spending quite some time attempting to calculate the correct water usage pp and per home, specifically in Dublin / Dublin Water Supply Area.

Upon research between articles and appendices for the Water Supply Project Plan by Irish Water for Eastern and Midland Regions, I get varied data.  Looking into a report collected from real data in July 2014, it is claimed that the mean amount of water usage pp is about 122 L for the full dataset, but 112 L when removing outliers. However, the mean does not represent the bulk numbers as 73% of observations fall below this number.  The results yield a median of 99L pp.  The figures also note that each additional person per household consumes 55 L/day, and the number of water consumption decreases with increasing # people per household.  

The most updated Irish Water Appendix C (Table 3.1) for the Water Supply Project (Eastern and Midland Regions) claims that in 2011, there were 1.516 million people and 592,000 homes in the Dublin Region, that the occupancy rate of homes was 2.69, and the consumption per connection was 365 L / prop / day.  When observing the claimed liters pp of water used and the average home rate, the 365 L/prop/day seems quite estimated.  Can someone from Irish Water clarify on how these figured were obtained? 

Note that for both the water consumption July 2014 and the Appendix C, I cannot post the links here because it is saying a new user cannot post URLs.  I can message them to you if they are of interest.  They are respectively called "Final Report on Household Water Consumption Estimates" and "Final Options Appraisal Report: Appendix C Cost-Benefit Analysis of Water Supply Projects for the Eastern and Midland Regions"

Hope any of that helps or even stirs the pot to get some more insight into correct water usage figures. Staying posted on this thread, thank you so much for keeping this going.

Going Forward wrote: »

Hello everyone,

Thanks for bearing with me on this.

Can boards look into this please?

Yesterday the average consumption figure being quoted by Irish Water jumped up from the 80 litres a day being quoted here on the strength of current data from 800k meters to 110 litres a day, a figure that's 3 years old and was arrived at from a survey of a couple of thousand meters.

".....when we exclude the 7% that are currently showing leaks the other 93% are only using approximately 110 litres per person...."

Source, yesterday's meeting of the JC On the Future of Domestic Water Funding:



That's a difference of over 37%

Can someone, either on behalf of Irish Water or boards reconcile what is exactly is going on with the figures??


Thank you all so much,

Kindest regards,

Going Forward

Irish Water: Amy A

Hi all,

Thanks for your patience as we investigated this on your behalf.

Consumption averages differ depending on what purpose they are being used for and on what is included in the figures is solely occupied homes; a mix of occupied and non-occupied homes; those homes with leaks; homes without leaks; all metered homes; a mix of metered and non-metered homes; homes with multiple of single occupancy etc. The Consumption Reports provided to the Comission for Energy Regulation and which are available on the Irish Water website provide the most up-to-date and accurate breakdown of water usage. Please click here for more.

We hope this helps.

Kind regards,
Amy

wildgreen

Irish Water: Amy wrote: »

Hi all,

Thanks for your patience as we investigated this on your behalf.

Consumption averages differ depending on what purpose they are being used for and on what is included in the figures is solely occupied homes; a mix of occupied and non-occupied homes; those homes with leaks; homes without leaks; all metered homes; a mix of metered and non-metered homes; homes with multiple of single occupancy etc. The Consumption Reports provided to the Comission for Energy Regulation and which are available on the Irish Water website provide the most up-to-date and accurate breakdown of water usage. Please click here for more.

We hope this helps.

Kind regards,
Amy

Thanks Amy

Irish Water: Alex

Hi wildgreen,

You're very welcome and we will pass your thanks on to Amy.

Thanks,
Alex

Going Forward

Irish Water: Amy wrote: »

Hi all,

Thanks for your patience as we investigated this on your behalf.

Consumption averages differ depending on what purpose they are being used for and on what is included in the figures is solely occupied homes; a mix of occupied and non-occupied homes; those homes with leaks; homes without leaks; all metered homes; a mix of metered and non-metered homes; homes with multiple of single occupancy etc. The Consumption Reports provided to the Comission for Energy Regulation and which are available on the Irish Water website provide the most up-to-date and accurate breakdown of water usage. Please click here for more.

We hope this helps.

Kind regards,
Amy

Hi Amy,

Many, many thanks for explaining the rationale behind Irish Water's conflicting average personal consumption figures appearing in the public domain.

Can you clarify that official policy is that Irish Water's average personal consumption figure (derived from the same meter readings) is subject to change, depending on when and where it is to be published?

It's currently either 80 or 110 litres a day. 

We've been assured it's 80 litres here, but 110 at the Oireachtas Committee, so is it possible to tell us which figure is the correct one?


Thank you so much in advance, and,

Kind regards as always,

Going Forward

Irish Water: Alex

Hi Going Forward,

As explained the averages differ based on what is included in the calculation of the average. We would recommend that you visit our website to find the full breakdown of all of the data reports.

We hope this information helps, thank you for contacting Irish Water.

Kind regards,
Alex