Declan Flynn 9/9/1982

Fleawuss

RIP. Where so much began.

JupiterKid

Declan Flynn's murder trial verdict in 1983 was Ireland's Stonewall. It galvanised the fledgling LGBT community and put us on the road where we are today. So many gay people were afraid and hid in the closet in a deeply intolerant and homophobic society but at some point enough people said "enough is enough" and change for the better began to happen.

Declan Flynn's death was therefore not in vain.

Ten of Swords

Hard to believe that 5 people walked out of court that day having been found guilty. Five year sentence, suspended.

This happened in Dublin 30 years ago. It was the comments of the trial judge that were particularly galling, "This, could never be regarded as murder"

This was the result,



An RTE documentary that aired in the early 2000s called 'Did anyone notice us?' has been uploaded to youtube, it chronicles the 20 year campaign for decriminalization of homosexuality and equal rights between 1973-1993, it's a fantastic documentary and well worth a look. The video details the Declan Flynn case from 27.12 to 31.56 in the video, including Pat Kenny reading the news after the trial verdict had been announced.

On a side note, the ringleader of the gang that beat Declan Flynn to death was later jailed for 10 years in 1987 for the violent rape of a pregnant woman.

MidnightMurphy

Four of the killers were adults and have been named
They are called Robert Armstrong; Tony Maher; Colm Donovan and Patrick Kavanagh.

Whatever happened to them - after they got away with murder?

Dr. Shrike

MidnightMurphy wrote: »

Four of the killers were adults and have been named
They are called Robert Armstrong; Tony Maher; Colm Donovan and Patrick Kavanagh.

Whatever happened to them - after they got away with murder?

I wonder if any of them had LGBT children?

JackTaylorFan

"I wonder if any of them had LGBT children?"

God, I hope not. What a miserable existence for that poor kid.

Ten of Swords

MidnightMurphy wrote: »

Whatever happened to them - after they got away with murder?

Assuming they're still alive (and that's not guaranteed given the path they were on at time) they would range in age from 48 - 53 years old now.

Robert Armstrong and Tony Maher were members of the Air Corps but were both discharged upon conviction of manslaughter, beyond that nobody knows/cares/has looked into it in any detail

JupiterKid

MidnightMurphy wrote: »

Four of the killers were adults and have been named
They are called Robert Armstrong; Tony Maher; Colm Donovan and Patrick Kavanagh.

Whatever happened to them - after they got away with murder?

One of them was convicted and jailed for the rape and assault of a woman in the mid 1980s. Lovely men by all accounts.

Ferrari3600

Also worth remembering Charles Self, whose murder is still unsolved.

Fleawuss

They're still around. One of them lives quite close to a well known LGBT activist.

Larry SR

Ferrari3600 wrote: »

Also worth remembering Charles Self, whose murder is still unsolved.

Can you provide more detail on this murder? Name doesn't sound familiar.

Ten of Swords

Charles Self was an RTE employee who was stabbed repeatedly in his own home in 1982. The Independent did a good piece on this case a few months ago.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/special-reports/unsolved-crimes-mystery-blond-holds-key-to-solving-brutal-murder-of-rte-set-designer-34925812.html

This article gives most of the details, the only thing missing is how the gardai operated the investigation. Over the course of it they questioned somewhere in the region of 1,500 gay men at Pearse Street garda station. There was a belief they were more interested in compiling lists of gay men in Dublin so people stopped talking to them. Back then gay men did not go to the gardai for help and the gardai themselves were a product of the times so many held very homophobic attitudes.

This older article from a couple of years ago deals with the garda investigation

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-homophobia-played-a-part-in-the-failure-to-solve-case-26748125.html

Nokia6230i

Ten of Swords wrote: »

Hard to believe that 5 people walked out of court that day having been found guilty. Five year sentence, suspended.

This happened in Dublin 30 years ago. It was the comments of the trial judge that were particularly galling, "This, could never be regarded as murder"

This was the result,



An RTE documentary that aired in the early 2000s called 'Did anyone notice us?' has been uploaded to youtube, it chronicles the 20 year campaign for decriminalization of homosexuality and equal rights between 1973-1993, it's a fantastic documentary and well worth a look. The video details the Declan Flynn case from 27.12 to 31.56 in the video, including Pat Kenny reading the news after the trial verdict had been announced.

On a side note, the ringleader of the gang that beat Declan Flynn to death was later jailed for 10 years in 1987 for the violent rape of a pregnant woman.

Even the terminology used in the news report though smacks of its time.

"violence to gays....." like? Only short of putting in the word "the" before gays in the sentence.

Could they not even have used "gay men" or "homosexual men" or was that even a step too far in 1983?

Not one mention of the abbreviation LGBT either much less LGBTQIA+ back then.

Peregrinus

From the tone of that report, it's from a newspaper or magazine produced by and for the gay community. That's how the gay community spoke about itself in the early '80s.

Walter Kilroy, to whom the article is credited, was a figure in the gay community in the 1980s.

Annasopra

Nokia6230i wrote: »

Even the terminology used in the news report though smacks of its time.

"violence to gays....." like? Only short of putting in the word "the" before gays in the sentence.

Could they not even have used "gay men" or "homosexual men" or was that even a step too far in 1983?

Not one mention of the abbreviation LGBT either much less LGBTQIA+ back then.

LGBT wasnt used widely as a terminology until the late 90s early 2000s

yopy

Robert Armstrong, the rapist from this story died in England this week.

He was advised by Gardaí to leave the country when he was released.

I don't know if he had his own family but I do know that 2 of his nephews are openly gay young men.

Manion

Nokia6230i wrote: »

Even the terminology used in the news report though smacks of its time.

"violence to gays....." like? Only short of putting in the word "the" before gays in the sentence.

Could they not even have used "gay men" or "homosexual men" or was that even a step too far in 1983?

Not one mention of the abbreviation LGBT either much less LGBTQIA+ back then.

Perhaps you should get some prospective if this is what you take away from the publication. Maybe you should be thankful it captured national attention and was even covered by the press. This business of retroactive application of today's social niceties to generations past is pointless.

These guys where seen as heros in the local communities for what they did. The report is about people, on mass, for the first time, standing up to say no, that's not right. You seem to have no idea how lucky you are to have the privilege to get upset the exact language used.

I've goosepimples reading about what happened this poor, poor man and while not quite crying, my eyes have welled up how an entire section of our society was demonised and that demonisation was justified by all sorts of ignorant people who were in power. The judgement was a travesty - according to The Irish Times article linked in Declan Flynn's Wikipedia article, the two TDs in 1982 who called for the judge to be removed were Mary Harney and, very surprisingly, Brendan McGahon of Fine Gael (you may recall he came on The LLS about 20 years ago calling for the reinstatement of the death penalty). So it seems to have been more a concern with law and order than anything else.

I never heard of him until a man interviewed in The George on the Seán O'Rourke show this morning talked about being on a march after his death. Just last night I was watching a poignant documentary on RTÉ 1 - No Country for women to die - about how women have been treated by this society - Eileen Flynn's case was in the same year, 1982, as Declan Flynn's murder. According to the Wikipedia page, there was a proposal in 2013 to erect a memorial to Declan in Fairview Park. Did that ever happen?

At least we have started to talk about all this and there is something to admire in that honesty and courage. Many countries never face up to this. Still, there is much more to go. While not gay myself, growing up in the 80s I will not forget the local gangs who used to boast about beating up the sole openly gay person in the area. I remember that man's name still, and that while quite young he had a massive alcohol problem which was easily understandable at the time. About 20 years ago I used to regularly go with a friend to gay bars as she went through so much pain and suffering about her sexual identity at that time - a suffering entirely of society's making. It was only then that I realised acutely the wrong; gay rights were no longer a distant issue for other people.

I do hope it is easier for young people to come out nowadays, although looking at another thread here by a young person struggling with acceptance gives me a feeling of déjà vu for my friend's struggles 20 years ago. That's sad; although my friend is in a much better, happier and reconciled place now so that's hopeful.

Today with Seán O'Rourke