Slope ratings being introduced in Ireland ?

PARlance

Seve OB wrote: »

yea, but unlike here I always thought you can actually have an official handicap over there also without being a member of a club

I'm open to correction but I don't think so, not without some affiliation to a club. Many have an accurate HC but not an official one.

PARlance

Senecio wrote: »

All handicapping systems can be manipulated if someone chooses to do so. Designing a system to stop the 1% is a futile exercise. Only we can do that by having the courage to call them out.

Australia has a similar golf culture to UK/IE. Strong membership, organised comps, social golf for the once a year's who aren't interested in a handicap. It works just fine.

Nobody is talking about designing a new system. It's quite clear which one can be manipulated easier.

The rally cry of having the "courage to call them out" sounds great but it's nothing but a soundbite.

mike12

I think it maybe for the tourist rather than the Irish market, nice them to be able to calculate their handicaps when they come.

the long lad

I really like the idea of the current system in Ireland being replaced. I'm currently playing golf in Australia and much of what is said above is true.

The real positive is that it takes 20 rounds to properly manipulate your handicap. If someone is prepared to do that to try and win the captains prize, well good luck to them. You technically can't handicap practice rounds in Australia - you're supposed to be playing in a competition of at least 3 and the club handicapper is the only person who can put the card through the system. It can also only be put through if it will have the effect of lowering your handicap. I know a lot of clubs have been very lax about this, but Golf Australia have now started to train club handicappers to stop doing this.

The guy who wants to increase his handicap should note that an online system allows you to see the golflink number of everyone who has played in the same competition as you. For example, I was today able to look up the last 20 rounds of the guy who won the comp I played in yesterday. It would be pretty obvious if someone has purposely blown his handicap out and then had a great round.

The big flaw is in the sloping though. It's done based on distances, hazards and width of fairways. We all know that courses can be difficult or easy for a variety of reasons. However, it is somewhat compensated for by the Daily Scratch Rating (equivalent of CSS) which moves with the standard of the field. As such, if it's a tough windy day the DSR will be higher.

The system was built for club golfers who play a competition once per week. This should mean (now that the dodgy handicap 70 euro memberships are no longer workable in Ireland) that it works better in Ireland than it does in Australia. For example, the DSR on a difficult course full of locals is usually lower than the DSR on a public course full of society members (who can get official handicaps in Aus). The standard of play in a particular club has a major bearing on handicaps - where standards are high, it's harder to get cut. It's obviously the same in Ireland, but it would be worsened with a new system imo.

Everyone's handicap will be lower as the system is based on potential rather than ability. It's quite rare that 40 points is the winning score - you're not supposed to be able to play to your handicap. While this would mean a lot of Irish begrudgers would be able to say 'aarrghh he's not a genuine scratch golfer', it makes everyone think they're better than they are and, I believe, prevents people from 'minding' their handicap.

Russman

the long lad wrote: »

It can also only be put through if it will have the effect of lowering your handicap.

Does this mean that a score worse than any in your last 20 counting rounds doesn't count ? Is it the top 8 of your last 20 best rounds then ? Genuinely asking.
Maybe I've misunderstood. Seems a bit odd for bad rounds not to count. Almost akin to the "old" system here where if you played to your handicap once during the year you couldn't go higher.


As an aside, would you say the slope rating system (or whatever its called) is harder or easier for the average Joe to understand and get his head round for your standard Saturday competition ?

the long lad

Russman wrote: »

the long lad wrote: »

It can also only be put through if it will have the effect of lowering your handicap.

Does this mean that a score worse than any in your last 20 counting rounds doesn't count ? Is it the top 8 of your last 20 best rounds then ? Genuinely asking.
Maybe I've misunderstood. Seems a bit odd for bad rounds not to count. Almost akin to the "old" system here where if you played to your handicap once during the year you couldn't go higher.


As an aside, would you say the slope rating system (or whatever its called) is harder or easier for the average Joe to understand and get his head round for your standard Saturday competition ?

This only applies to out of official competition/practice rounds. If a bunch of fellas go and play somewhere they can have their cards put through the system even if they don't play a comp as long as there's at least 3 of them - if it doesn't improve your h/c it gets discarded. All competitive rounds have to go through.

It's the top 8 of your last 20 rounds. So if your 20th round was a good one (a flag round) and you don't replace it with something better, your handicap goes up.

It's harder for your average Joe to understand for sure but you'd be surprised how quickly it becomes normal.

Russman

the long lad wrote: »

This only applies to out of official competition/practice rounds. If a bunch of fellas go and play somewhere they can have their cards put through the system even if they don't play a comp as long as there's at least 3 of them - if it doesn't improve your h/c it gets discarded. All competitive rounds have to go through.

It's the top 8 of your last 20 rounds. So if your 20th round was a good one (a flag round) and you don't replace it with something better, your handicap goes up.

It's harder for your average Joe to understand for sure but you'd be surprised how quickly it becomes normal.

Ahh right, sorry, I picked it up wrong.
Ok, so your handicap can still go up through competition rounds, got it now.

Presumably most or all of it is computerised and guys don't have to be keeping records and working out averages etc. ?

the long lad

It's 100% computerised and there's an app that shows you the full results from your last 20 rounds... so if think you've been beaten by a bandit, you can see his golflink number and then look up his last 20 rounds!

Russman

Its a very interesting concept and totally different to the current one.
If I understand it even half correctly, two guys off the same handicap could shoot, lets say, 38pts, on the same course and their handicaps could change by completely different amounts, depending on the make up of their best 8 out of last 20 scores. In theory, one of them could be cut and the other one could even go up, however unlikely that would be in practice.

ronjo

Here is Slovakia we use both Slope Rating and Course Rating to calculate your playing handicap on each course.

It generally works well I think.

Hoof Hearted2

Interesting fact I learned yesterday re course ratings, every course that has a UHS i.e SSS rating is calculated first using the slope rating system and is then converted to SSS i.e UHS.
So slope rating is already a universal system of course rating and it would appear only a matter of time before it's a universal HC system.

Seve OB

The more I read of it the more stupid it sounds

Montgolfier

With this system in place surely you would have to be playing Stroke competitions as standard. Would I be right in saying Americans mostly play stroke?

Hoof Hearted2

Seve OB wrote: »

The more I read of it the more stupid it sounds

Fortunately Seve your opinion doesn't matter.

Montgolfier wrote: »

With this system in place surely you would have to be playing Stroke competitions as standard. Would I be right in saying Americans mostly play stroke?

It's fully adaptable to all formats is my understanding, maybe our aussie friends could shed some light on how that works in practice.

Seve OB

Montgolfier wrote: »

With this system in place surely you would have to be playing Stroke competitions as standard. Would I be right in saying Americans mostly play stroke?

yea I don't think they even know what stableford is.

ronjo

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

It's fully adaptable to all formats is my understanding, maybe our aussie friends could shed some light on how that works in practice.

I can tell you how it works in Central Europe.

Each set of tees is assigned a Course rating and a Slope Rating. The CR is what a scratch golfer should play off and SR then adjusts for level of handicap.

For Example my handicap is currently 10.7 and my course is Par 72. The White tees have a CR of 71.9 and SR 133 and Yellows have CR of 69.8 and SR of 128.

I played a competition the other day and had a playing handicap from Whites of 12 as formula is
(Handicap + CR - PAR) * SR /113.
Its all computerised and I have played competitions in Slovakia, Czech Republic, Austria and Hungary using it.

I have an app on my phone that allows me to check what my playing handicap would be on any course in Slovakia and Czech Republic and on all the tees there.

Montgolfier

ronjo wrote: »

I can tell you how it works in Central Europe.

Each set of tees is assigned a Course rating and a Slope Rating. The CR is what a scratch golfer should play off and SR then adjusts for level of handicap.

For Example my handicap is currently 10.7 and my course is Par 72. The White tees have a CR of 71.9 and SR 133 and Yellows have CR of 69.8 and SR of 128.

I played a competition the other day and had a playing handicap from Whites of 12 as formula is
(Handicap + CR - PAR) * SR /113.
Its all computerised and I have played competitions in Slovakia, Czech Republic, Austria and Hungary using it.

I have an app on my phone that allows me to check what my playing handicap would be on any course in Slovakia and Czech Republic and on all the tees there.

Out of interest was it stroke play or stableford?

ronjo

Montgolfier wrote: »

Out of interest was it stroke play or stableford?

Stableford.

Sometimes they have Stroke play tournaments in which your actual score is adjusted for handicaps.

Its a small enough market here and people regularly play in competitions at different clubs. Virtually all competitions are Open but there was about 90 playing this one split in 2 categories.

Russman

ronjo wrote: »

I can tell you how it works in Central Europe.

Each set of tees is assigned a Course rating and a Slope Rating. The CR is what a scratch golfer should play off and SR then adjusts for level of handicap.

For Example my handicap is currently 10.7 and my course is Par 72. The White tees have a CR of 71.9 and SR 133 and Yellows have CR of 69.8 and SR of 128.

I played a competition the other day and had a playing handicap from Whites of 12 as formula is
(Handicap + CR - PAR) * SR /113.
Its all computerised and I have played competitions in Slovakia, Czech Republic, Austria and Hungary using it.

I have an app on my phone that allows me to check what my playing handicap would be on any course in Slovakia and Czech Republic and on all the tees there.

So, the CR & SR never change and the only variable in working out your playing handicap is your actual exact handicap ?
I assume that it would be easy enough to produce a chart or list for the locker room notice board showing what every handicap converts to for each set of tees ? Given there will be always fellas who don't have the app or their phone etc.

Russman

Would it also be true to say that getting a cut or an increase is at least one step further removed from the competition of the day, given that its dependent on your best 8 out of last 20 scores, rather than how the field performed on a given day ?

Seve OB

Russman wrote: »

Would it also be true to say that getting a cut or an increase is at least one step further removed from the competition of the day, given that its dependent on your best 8 out of last 20 scores, rather than how the field performed on a given day ?

Which is just ridiculous. Shoot 30 points in brutal conditions, win the comp and gain a couple of shots on your handicap ........

Russman

Seve OB wrote: »

Which is just ridiculous. Shoot 30 points in brutal conditions, win the comp and gain a couple of shots on your handicap ........

Yeah its a bit different alright. Or two guys shooting 36pts, one gets cut and one gets an increase, potentially. I dunno. But thinking about the maths of it, if your handicap is an average of 8 scores, you'd need to beat or be worse than one of your 8 scores by 8 shots to gain or lose even a full shot (I think - not much of a mathematician !) so its fairly unlikely in reality. Totally open to correction on that.

I guess its good insofar as it takes the winning or losing in the competition out of the equation (which in fairness it already is), but your handicap is purely against the course and not impacted by how the rest of the field play, as it is now to a degree with the CSS element.

Senna

Seve OB wrote: »

Which is just ridiculous. Shoot 30 points in brutal conditions, win the comp and gain a couple of shots on your handicap ........

Guessing its not a problem in most other counties where the climate is more conducive to golf.
Ireland & UK need Slope + current weather = Handicap adjustment

Seve OB

Russman wrote: »

Totally open to corruption on that.

FYP

the long lad

I don't see anything ridiculous about being cut for shooting 30 points in a storm. Why should you get a .1 back when you've played better than everyone else in the field? The comment above that you're playing against the course is not correct. The course scratch and slope ratings are used to determine your daily handicap, but the Daily Scratch Rating (equivalent of CSS) is used to determine whether you are cut or not. The DSR moves much more than the CSS in Ireland, which can only move within a range of 4. I played a par 70 last week off the Tiger tees in the wind, the DSR was 77... a bit extreme in my opinion but there's no perfect system.

The Australian system is the exact same as in Europe, which is interesting. It would be good to see steps taken towards a global handicap system.

There's no doubt, the Aussie system is far far less open to cheating/minding your handicap than the CONGU system.

ronjo

Russman wrote: »

So, the CR & SR never change and the only variable in working out your playing handicap is your actual exact handicap ?
I assume that it would be easy enough to produce a chart or list for the locker room notice board showing what every handicap converts to for each set of tees ? Given there will be always fellas who don't have the app or their phone etc.

Well my clubs changed a little a few years as they extended some tees but your point stands.
There is a chart in every club showing what your playing handicap is from each tee.

Russman wrote: »

Would it also be true to say that getting a cut or an increase is at least one step further removed from the competition of the day, given that its dependent on your best 8 out of last 20 scores, rather than how the field performed on a given day ?

In Slovakia each tournament is stand alone. There is not best 8 out of 20 so you get cut or increased (or left if in buffer) at every tournament.

the long lad wrote: »

The Australian system is the exact same as in Europe, which is interesting. It would be good to see steps taken towards a global handicap system.

There's no doubt, the Aussie system is far far less open to cheating/minding your handicap than the CONGU system.

As above, they arent the exact same as we dont have best 8 out of 20.

Senecio

I do miss the challenge of the Australian system. Many years ago I was going through the horrors with my game. I slipped out from 7 to 9 over a period of ~8 months. There I was sitting on 9.4 with no golf game a 3 flag rounds just about to drop out of my last 20. Those flag rounds were +7, +2 & +4 in that order. I just couldn't contemplate going back out to double figures and if I didn't get my **** together quickly I could have blown out to 11 or even 12 in the next three weeks.

So I took a week off, got my head in the right place and knuckled down at my practise. Week 1 I stood on the first tee knowing I needed to shoot +7 or better. I managed to grind out a +7 round. It wasn't pretty but I did it and it was far better than anything I'd shot in the last 8 months. Week 2 was tough. Where was a +2 going to come from? More practise, took the Friday off work to play and Saturday morning over breakfast I put a game plan together. Everything clicked and I holed a few long putts, +1! Week three still on 9.4 HCP as the differential between +2 dropping out and +1 coming in wasn't enough. Now I've got confidence back and feeling good, shot +2 to drop to 9.2.

The next three weeks I had no flag rounds dropping out so I had a chance to use my momentum to put a few rounds in and get away from the dreaded double figures.

Those three weeks made me focus, they toughened me up mentally and ultimately made me a better golfer. You'll never experience pressure like that under the CONGU system.

Russman

ronjo wrote: »

In Slovakia each tournament is stand alone. There is not best 8 out of 20 so you get cut or increased (or left if in buffer) at every tournament.
.

Ahh right, I didn't realise there wasn't the best 8 out of 20. Makes more sense now.


So there seems to be two methods of calculating handicap while using the "slope and course rating" as opposed to CONGU ?
One based on a calculated DSR (which seems very roughly similar in principle to CSS) and your handicap changes as you break or don't break DSR, and
one based on some sort of percentage of your average of your best 8 out of last 20 rounds ?

Rikand

Senecio wrote: »

I do miss the challenge of the Australian system. Many years ago I was going through the horrors with my game. I slipped out from 7 to 9 over a period of ~8 months. There I was sitting on 9.4 with no golf game a 3 flag rounds just about to drop out of my last 20. Those flag rounds were +7, +2 & +4 in that order. I just couldn't contemplate going back out to double figures and if I didn't get my **** together quickly I could have blown out to 11 or even 12 in the next three weeks.

So I took a week off, got my head in the right place and knuckled down at my practise. Week 1 I stood on the first tee knowing I needed to shoot +7 or better. I managed to grind out a +7 round. It wasn't pretty but I did it and it was far better than anything I'd shot in the last 8 months. Week 2 was tough. Where was a +2 going to come from? More practise, took the Friday off work to play and Saturday morning over breakfast I put a game plan together. Everything clicked and I holed a few long putts, +1! Week three still on 9.4 HCP as the differential between +2 dropping out and +1 coming in wasn't enough. Now I've got confidence back and feeling good, shot +2 to drop to 9.2.

The next three weeks I had no flag rounds dropping out so I had a chance to use my momentum to put a few rounds in and get away from the dreaded double figures.

Those three weeks made me focus, they toughened me up mentally and ultimately made me a better golfer. You'll never experience pressure like that under the CONGU system.

So Hypothetically speaking, if I'm playing off 9 and in a months time I have the captains prize coming up. I'm playing ****e and 3 of my flag rounds are coming up. I deliberately throw in 3 rounds of +20 so that my handicap is up to 14/15 and then I go out and romp that Captains prize the next weekend.


Is there any provision in place in the australian slope system to prevent that from happening ?


because lets face it, everyone comes onto boards with some anecdote about someone fiddling their handicap and we are a pretty small sample size in the grand scheme of golf out there. Handicap cheats really must be rife in the game in Ireland.

If this system were introduced here there appears to be little that can be done to stop something like this happening apart from the golf club calling out the player and hoping the player doesnt sue them for defamation of character

Russman

Rikand wrote: »

So Hypothetically speaking, if I'm playing off 9 and in a months time I have the captains prize coming up. I'm playing ****e and 3 of my flag rounds are coming up. I deliberately throw in 3 rounds of +20 so that my handicap is up to 14/15 and then I go out and romp that Captains prize the next weekend.


Is there any provision in place in the australian slope system to prevent that from happening ?


because lets face it, everyone comes onto boards with some anecdote about someone fiddling their handicap and we are a pretty small sample size in the grand scheme of golf out there. Handicap cheats really must be rife in the game in Ireland.

If this system were introduced here there appears to be little that can be done to stop something like this happening apart from the golf club calling out the player and hoping the player doesnt sue them for defamation of character

But those three +20 rounds would still have to be in your top 8 out of your last 20 rounds, no ? Not impossible but fairly unlikely I'd say....? Someone off 9 would likely have a few rounds lying somewhere between their 8th best and +20.