Are there too many useless 3rd level courses on offer nowadays?

c68zapdsm5i1ru

Someone who works in recruitment was telling me that a lot of employers completely disregard a lot of the degree and diploma courses on graduates' CVs and consider them to be more or less useless. Apparently it is well known, in most areas of employment, which degrees are the real deal and which aren't worth the paper they're written on.

Just wondering if a lot of school leavers are being duped into spending 3-4 years on pointless study when they would be better going straight into the workplace and learning 'on the job'. We seem to have become obsessed with everyone going to 'college' whether they're suited to it or not.

Boom_Bap

Moved from AH a the Work & Jobs forum is more suited to this discussion.

Please read the Charter of Work & Jobs before posting.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

Well, I really meant to generate a discussion on our obsession with school leavers going to College, regardless of aptitude or academic ability and the number of courses that have sprung up to facilitate this.

Maybe I worded my opening post badly!

draiochtanois

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Cadence Nutritious Eyeball

Cadence Nutritious Eyeball wrote: »

Well, I really meant to generate a discussion on our obsession with school leavers going to College, regardless of aptitude or academic ability and the number of courses that have sprung up to facilitate this.

Maybe I worded my opening post badly!

While you may have a point of sorts, degrees are not handed out like sweets, you do have to have a certain level of academic ability to pass the exams and do the assignments. Aptitude is a different issue.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

mariaalice wrote: »

While you may have a point of sorts, degrees are not handed out like sweets, you do have to have a certain level of academic ability to pass the exams and do the assignments. Aptitude is a different issue.

No, but a lot of spurious courses seem to have sprung up, in answer to increased demand for college places. Some of them sound more akin to the kind of courses that people used to do at night in the local tech. than to actual degree level courses.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

draiochtanois wrote: »

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I don't really agree with this. The point of Arts degrees isn't to directly feed into a particular area of employment, but to encourage critical thinking, research capability and so on. I think that's a different matter from doing a glorified secretarial course, now classed as a 'diploma in Office Management and Business' and taking three years instead of three months.

Tefral

Most people look down on trades and to be honest that is where most people should be looking at.
In my industry there are certainly too many spurious diplomas and certifications.

In my mind "general" type degrees are useless. Yeah, they teach you to reach deadlines and they do require a degree of educational acumen however alot of them generally end up with people on the dole queue. I've personally witnessed it and for some reason they cant get their head around why they didn't walk straight out of college into a job.

Unless your degree is specific i think their are kind of a waste of time. That's my tuppance worth.

draiochtanois

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c68zapdsm5i1ru

Tefral wrote: »

Most people look down on trades and to be honest that is where most people should be looking at.
In my industry there are certainly too many spurious diplomas and certifications.

In my mind "general" type degrees are useless. Yeah, they teach you to reach deadlines and they do require a degree of educational acumen however alot of them generally end up with people on the dole queue. I've personally witnessed it and for some reason they cant get their head around why they didn't walk straight out of college into a job.

Unless your degree is specific i think their are kind of a waste of time. That's my tuppance worth.

I agree, there are far too many school leavers being pushed down the college route when they'd be far better suited to doing an apprenticeship of some kind. There are also lots of people who would be better off learning on the job, or even going abroad to work for a few years in order to broaden their horizons, instead of wasting three or four years studying for some hastily put together degree or diploma course that will ultimately be of no use to them.
But, as someone has already said, a lot of employers now insist on degrees, even for jobs that don't actually require them. That's part of the problem, really.

Cadence Nutritious Eyeball

Cadence Nutritious Eyeball wrote: »

No, but a lot of spurious courses seem to have sprung up, in answer to increased demand for college places. Some of them sound more akin to the kind of courses that people used to do at night in the local tech. than to actual degree level courses.

Have you got an example

c68zapdsm5i1ru

mariaalice wrote: »

Have you got an example

There's loads if you look on the CAO website eg Citizenship and Community Studies; Film; Business Psychology; and so on. Nothing wrong with studying subjects like that part time, as part of your career development or simply out of interest. But making them full time degree or diploma courses for school leavers, requiring several years study and thousands of pounds of tax payers' money (not to mention significant registration fees from the students or their parents) sounds a bit OTT to me.

eeguy

mariaalice wrote: »

Have you got an example

One big one was archaeology after the success of Time Team on channel 4.
Hundreds of places for tens of jobs.

Same with forensics. Sligo had a forensics course with dozens of students each year, thanks to the influence of CSI. There's maybe 50 forensic science jobs in the country, and since it's operated through the civil service, most of them go to gardai.
You see the same thing all the time. Information Studies to teach you to be a librarian or cataloguer. Hardly any of them left in the country now.

Even since the recession, people are being sold on false promises that they'll get a job at the end of their course. Purely because more students = more money for universities and more income for lecturers.

Springboard is the best recession idea the Govt had. Identify areas of growth potential and fund courses for the unemployed, mainly in business and STEM. Shame it didn't catch on to the rest of academia.
The biggest problem IMO is people saying that you should do what you love in college. That's all well and good, but it should be balanced against the economic reality. Nothing more depressing that going through 4 years of college to get a min wage service job.

OneOfThem Stumbled

draiochtanois wrote: »

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The same can be said of most degrees, particularly science.

"I want to be a physicist." Yeah, right: would be better off saying "I want to be a writer".

But yes, there are too many universities and too many university courses. Universities aren't meant to be geared towards jobs - that's what institutes are for. The fact that certain degrees lead to jobs is predominantly incidental, and much of the time spent in such degrees is spent on theory and academia rather than practice (i.e. the thing you want for the job).

We have the notion that to stay ahead of the game we need to educate our young people to a greater extent than our global competitors (e.g. China or India). But this is producing the idea of education for the sake of education. We don't really emphasise the point that people should be geared towards the academic route that they are choosing, it is as if being in third level is a virtue in itself.

Nekarsulm

In our local "Institute" there are a large number of places for students doing Hair & Beauty courses, closely followed by Childcare. Having been involved in an industry with a link to tgese "students", I get the distinct impression that a lot if them couldn't think of anything to do career-wise after the Leaving Cert, but as they were mainly focused on their hair and makeup anyway, signed up. A surprising number flunked Christmas exams and give up.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

It's not just the subjects studied, either. You can have one educational institute offering a degree in Business, requiring high points and significant ability in order to pass each year's exams. You can have another educational institute offering a Business degree requiring much lower points, and operating to a much simpler standard.
Graduates of both colleges will have a Business degree, but employers will generally know which one to take seriously and which one to discount. That's another example of spurious courses being set up to meet demand, but not really offering anything of long term use to the student.

eeguy

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

The same can be said of most degrees, particularly science.

"I want to be a physicist." Yeah, right: would be better off saying "I want to be a writer".

But yes, there are too many universities and too many university courses. Universities aren't meant to be geared towards jobs - that's what institutes are for. The fact that certain degrees lead to jobs is predominantly incidental, and much of the time spent in such degrees is spent on theory and academia rather than practice (i.e. the thing you want for the job).

I disagree with this. The biggest economic driver in any society is innovation. It's in the country's best interest to have a highly educated workforce, with relevant skills. STEM are relevant skills and the amount of money in these sectors is enormous.

Outside of STEM and business/finance, things get tough and we should be telling people to take this into account when they choose their courses.

Cadence Nutritious Eyeball wrote: »

It's not just the subjects studied, either. You can have one educational institute offering a degree in Business, requiring high points and significant ability in order to pass each year's exams. You can have another educational institute offering a Business degree requiring much lower points, and operating to a much simpler standard.
Graduates of both colleges will have a Business degree, but employers will generally know which one to take seriously and which one to discount. That's another example of spurious courses being set up to meet demand, but not really offering anything of long term use to the student.

Points only reflect the demand for the course, not the quality.

Different institutions take different views on how courses should be taught. IT's generally take a more practical route, since these skills are most useful when job hunting. Universities take a more academic route, since these skills are more useful for research. Ability and course difficulty are very hard to quantify, since hard work and effort outweigh natural talent in the long run.

chancer12

draiochtanois wrote: »

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You obviously don't have an Arts degree! Most critics of degrees in the humanities have no idea what's required in obtaining one.

I think the OP was referring to the myriad of 'colleges' offering degrees that aren't awarded by HETAC

godtabh

Not every one needs to go to college and the sooner people realize that the better. We need more trades people and less arts degrees.

intheclouds

Cadence Nutritious Eyeball wrote: »

Graduates of both colleges will have a Business degree, but employers will generally know which one to take seriously and which one to discount. That's another example of spurious courses being set up to meet demand, but not really offering anything of long term use to the student.

You say this like employers have some kind of secret handbook.

It is not a secret which universities and which courses are the most prestigious or the most useful for a particular career.

Back in my day private colleges offered degrees accredited by some unknown university in Wales and we all knew they meant little or nothing.

Same for colleges here. I wanted to study Applied Science and it was well known the DIT offering was more favourably looked upon by employers over the TCD offering (both were accredited by TCD), so all the smart kids went for that.

Arts degrees have long been known to not be aimed at any particular career.

Education for the sake of it is still a noble pursuit.

The real problem in this country is the lack of engagement with industry from the schools who should be advising the kids where the jobs are and what to study to get them. Our career guidance teacher wanted all the fellas to be electricians and all the girls to be hairdressers and anyone who was interested in a degree was laughed at. So not much use for future prospects.

Arcade_Tryer

draiochtanois wrote: »

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Ok.

draiochtanois wrote:

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Okaaayyy.

By the way, I know of two people personally who received maximum points in the Leaving Cert and are doing "Arts degrees" in Trinity, learning critical thinking, research skills and general knowledge through study of English, History, Economics, Politics, Philosophy and so on.

Cadence Nutritious Eyeball

Cadence Nutritious Eyeball wrote: »

It's not just the subjects studied, either. You can have one educational institute offering a degree in Business, requiring high points and significant ability in order to pass each year's exams. You can have another educational institute offering a Business degree requiring much lower points, and operating to a much simpler standard.
Graduates of both colleges will have a Business degree, but employers will generally know which one to take seriously and which one to discount. That's another example of spurious courses being set up to meet demand, but not really offering anything of long term use to the student.

Since you appear to be big in the prestige of where someone studied, what would you make of this, went to an IT and then transferred for a year to a university to get an hon degree, so on their CV they will have degree from Queens or what ever even though they did the majority of their undergraduate study in an institute of technology.

draiochtanois

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draiochtanois

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Saipanne

I did economics through arts and I now earn a fine salary in a financial institution.

Your degree is what you make of it.

draiochtanois

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curiousoranje

Wasted two years on VTOS IT course that I could have ran better myself. Two certs I got out of it were because I actually bothered to stay behind most evenings and set up equipment and run through practicals til I got kicked out by the janitor at 5.30. Everyone else in the class rota learned cert questions and the majority of them passed too. The QQI L6 full award I also got was a joke, and more about organising endless irrelevant paperwork than anything else. Even then I'd still get panicked texts from useless tutors who had lost this sheet or that.

I struggled to even get a rejection response from employers for any entry level jobs I applied for since finishing in June. After a few soul destroying weeks of that I said sod it, and applied for a science related Springboard course that I stumbled upon. After day one of it last week I was more than impressed by the facilities, tutors and course programme and am just sorry I never heard of Springboard two years ago.

So I wholeheartedly agree that there are far too many mickey mouse courses floating around, which all seem to exist to keep bad tutors/lectures/teachers in handy employment.

Saipanne

draiochtanois wrote: »

They are less related than you imagine.

Join a financial institution, work hard and get some experience and you will get promoted. Maybe do some professional exams if required.

Without Economics I would lack the theoretical knowledge (econometrics) to do my job (analytics). You haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Arcade_Tryer

draiochtanois wrote: »

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Having read English at third level, I can absolutely guarantee you that there is a substantial difference in the way the subject is taught and supposed to be researched. You also don't allow for the person who gets a B or a C, or even a D or E, in Honours Leaving Cert English, but who possesses a passion for English and excels at 3rd level.

And sorry but the way you phrase the above is a telltale sign that you aren't very familiar with how Arts at Trinity is organised.

Not intimately. But TSM is essentially an arts degree, albeit the standard required to achieve successful grades would admittedly be greater than arts degrees in other universities in Ireland.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

mariaalice wrote: »

Since you appear to be big in the prestige of where someone studied, what would you make of this, went to an IT and then transferred for a year to a university to get an hon degree, so on their CV they will have degree from Queens or what ever even though they did the majority of their undergraduate study in an institute of technology.

That's a very unfair comment. Where did I mention prestige? I am talking about the fact that a lot of degree courses are springing up, and many of them are not recognised by employers or are on spurious subjects that are not suitable for degree level status.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

intheclouds wrote: »

You say this like employers have some kind of secret handbook.

It is not a secret which universities and which courses are the most prestigious or the most useful for a particular career.

Back in my day private colleges offered degrees accredited by some unknown university in Wales and we all knew they meant little or nothing.

Same for colleges here. I wanted to study Applied Science and it was well known the DIT offering was more favourably looked upon by employers over the TCD offering (both were accredited by TCD), so all the smart kids went for that.

Arts degrees have long been known to not be aimed at any particular career.

Education for the sake of it is still a noble pursuit.

The real problem in this country is the lack of engagement with industry from the schools who should be advising the kids where the jobs are and what to study to get them. Our career guidance teacher wanted all the fellas to be electricians and all the girls to be hairdressers and anyone who was interested in a degree was laughed at. So not much use for future prospects.

Sorry, that's not what I meant at all. I think it's well known, in individual industries, which courses offer qualifications that are genuinely useful and which offer inferior courses that have the same or a similar title. The problem is that a lot of students and parents don't realise this, which can lead to students wasting a lot of time and effort obtaining qualifications that are no use to them in seeking employment. They would probably be better off using the time to train on the job, if that became more of a norm, instead of pushing everyone through college and then creating unnecessary courses to meet demand.

draiochtanois

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Mrs OBumble

draiochtanois wrote: »

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Once upon a time that was true, but the number is a lot larger now.

http://www.iua.ie/the-irish-universities/university-fast-facts/ says that

One in every twenty-two people in Ireland is a higher education student (either full time or part-time) – 4.6% of the population.

But that is saying that at any point in time, 4.6% of the population are in higher education. Given that lots of the population are kids, so not yet eligible for higher education, or have already completed their higher education - then during the "prime" college going years, far, far more than 4.6% must be in higher education.

And http://educationmatters.ie/em_news/report-shows-irish-are-best-qualified-in-europe/ says that, based on 2011 numbers,

48 per cent of Irish 25-34 year olds hold university-level qualifications

That last number is particularly stunning, when you think about the number who attend college, but drop out without completing a qualification.

Personally I think that the balance of universities vs IT's is wrong, as is the IT's focus on full-time students.

chancer12

mariaalice wrote: »

Since you appear to be big in the prestige of where someone studied, what would you make of this, went to an IT and then transferred for a year to a university to get an hon degree, so on their CV they will have degree from Queens or what ever even though they did the majority of their undergraduate study in an institute of technology.

Universities don't accept transfer students into final year. They accept them into year 2 where there has been a common year 1. Nobody transfers from an IT to a final year level 8

eeguy

chancer12 wrote: »

Universities don't accept transfer students into final year. They accept them into year 2 where there has been a common year 1. Nobody transfers from an IT to a final year level 8

You could use the same example where someone gets a level 8 from an IT, then does a masters in Trinity.

draiochtanois

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Permabear

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gingernut79

To flip the coin on this, I've discovered many jobs recently that I would like to apply for but as I haven't done the industry standard course from UCD I'm not even being looked at. Wish someone had told me that when I was doing the leaving.

Hollister11

You don't even to go to the 'best' colleges to get a good education and job. Colleges like NCI, and the Institutes of education provide high quality courses.
NCI has a 98% employment rate from there school of computing.

pumpkin4life

draiochtanois wrote: »

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Translation: We know our courses are a waste of time and you'll believe any old nonsense we say, and you'll have a hard time of getting a job, but you do get these fangly dangly critical skills!

Arts courses are garbage, a highly corrupt education industry selling shìte to people.

IT/STEM/Trades/Sales etc, that's what you want to go to.

Mrs OBumble

draiochtanois wrote: »

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Do you genuinely not understand the difference between these two measures, and why they cannot be directly compared?

Let me put it this way: you can have either a 10% increase which is spread out over your entire working life (40 years), or you can have a 4.6% increase now.

(A very rough explanation, I know, but I hope the poster will get the point.)

Xenji

Outdoor Activities and Heritage Studies used to keep one IT running, never once heard of anyone getting a job in either field though, Outdoor Activities is possibly one of the most pointless courses being offered in the country and dozens of people still enroll each year.

Permabear

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c68zapdsm5i1ru

pumpkin4life wrote: »

Translation: We know our courses are a waste of time and you'll believe any old nonsense we say, and you'll have a hard time of getting a job, but you do get these fangly dangly critical skills!

Arts courses are garbage, a highly corrupt education industry selling shìte to people.

IT/STEM/Trades/Sales etc, that's what you want to go to.

It depends on the individual, though. Not everyone is suited to those jobs, in the same way that College is not the correct route for everyone.

I do think there's a place for Arts graduates in the world of work; and the ability to critically analyse material, undertake research etc. are important skills, which a 3rd level education, if taken seriously, can help to develop.

pumpkin4life

Permabear wrote: »

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Definitely be agreeing with the bolded parts.

Permabear wrote: »

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That's the key word though, could. Every lad fits into a distribution. If I get a degree in philosophy, what is my outcome compared to say, a guy doing engineering? Or what is my outcome compared to someone who didn't go to university but who had three years to work/earn a skill/get money/build up a C.V?

The average arts student is worse off than the average STEM student, moreso than ever.

Employers are starting to recognize this as well. They're starting to use IQ tests more and more:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/ey-firm-says-it-will-not-longer-consider-degrees-or-a-level-results-when-assessing-employees-10436355.html

draiochtanois

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Permabear

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c68zapdsm5i1ru

pumpkin4life wrote: »

Definitely be agreeing with the bolded parts.



That's the key word though, could. Every lad fits into a distribution. If I get a degree in philosophy, what is my outcome compared to say, a guy doing engineering? Or what is my outcome compared to someone who didn't go to university but who had three years to work/earn a skill/get money/build up a C.V?

The average arts student is worse off than the average STEM student, moreso than ever.

Employers are starting to recognize this as well. They're starting to use IQ tests more and more:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/ey-firm-says-it-will-not-longer-consider-degrees-or-a-level-results-when-assessing-employees-10436355.html

As an Arts graduate myself, I agree that an Arts degree is not going to equip you for a specific job. Even for teaching, a HDip involving actual practise in the classroom is necessary.

I did my degree at night while working full time during the day, and I found having the degree opened doors for me in my place of work. But that, of course, was combined with having on the job experience. I do think, however, that the study involved and the need to research and write essays of high standard was hugely helpful when I started working in policy areas which necessitated undertaking research, writing reports etc. However, there were other people working in this area who didn't have a degree so of course it wasn't essential.

I think, as said previously, that there is a place for Arts graduates; but I have no time for people with an Arts degree thinking they're entitled to swan into an organisation at a higher level than people who have worked there for years and have massive experience. I think it can be a good foundation, but it should be seen as such, and not as a qualification which gives you any expertise over and above people already doing the job, or even equal to them.

GalwayGrrrrrl

I feel that a degree is now the new "leaving cert" and a masters is the new (bachelors) degree. I don't have figures to hand but I reckon it's your top 10% that now have a masters degree. I don't think education is ever a complete waste of time, but students starting a bachelors degree now need to be aware that they almost certainly won't walk into a job without some element of extra training or education.
My sister studied "cultural studies" including a module on tattoo culture!! She did her librarian postgrad course after and now has a well paid job. And no tattoos!

Diemos

intheclouds wrote: »

The real problem in this country is the lack of engagement with industry from the schools who should be advising the kids where the jobs are and what to study to get them. Our career guidance teacher wanted all the fellas to be electricians and all the girls to be hairdressers and anyone who was interested in a degree was laughed at. So not much use for future prospects.

There is a certain irony given that career guidance teachers never had a career. But they do have the cushiest job in the world......maybe we are the mugs.....

Tasden

Diemos wrote: »

There is a certain irony given that career guidance teachers never had a career. But they do have the cushiest job in the world......maybe we are the mugs.....

Career guidance in schools in this country is a joke. We expect kids to choose their "career" at 15/16 and apply for college courses without much guidance. The amount of kids who say "I haven't decided what I wanna do so I'm gonna do an arts degree". Or "I'll do business cause it's always gonna be a relevant subject". Even prior to fifth year kids need to be choosing their leaving cert subjects which could impact their course choices and entry into college but they get no guidance on it.

My "career guidance" was being told to look at the page of papers that contained the points required for each course the year previous, and deciding which course I wanted to do. No info on the courses other than the points it required the previous year. How can a 15/16 year old even know where to start their research if they have no idea what they want to do.