Thinking of switching from 2008 Honda Jazz to 2011 Toyota Prius/Auris

yannakis

Coming from a Japanese Honda Fit I know the CVT pretty well :pac:

I am looking to change to an automatic car, with similar (low) road tax and lower consumption. From what I've experienced, Toyotas have really good interior and that's a plus. Honda's creaking and squeaking interior is getting on my nerves

Beyond all details I will need to check for a used car, are there any hybrid or Auris/Prius specific elements I need to pay more attention to?

steelboots

What is your typical weekly mileage ?
Do you take long journeys often ? and if so how long ?
Is there a second car available in the house hold ?

The more info you can provide the better advice you will get on this forum.

DublinDilbert

The build quality of the Auris Hybrid probably isn't amazing, but you can't fault that hybrid drive train. They are also much cheaper than an equivalent Prius. If your looking for a city car the Auris is great, couldn't fault it.

Soarer

Or a Yaris Hybrid?

yannakis

Thanks for engaging guys!

steelboots wrote: »

What is your typical weekly mileage ?
Do you take long journeys often ? and if so how long ?
Is there a second car available in the house hold ?

- Commute total for hte week is 200km; on average I'll drive 100-200km extra excluding long trips; so I'd put the weekly around 350-400km.
- Long leisure trips: I'll do 1000km around Ireland 2-4 times a year, and 500-600km weekend trips 8-10 times a year.
- There is a second car, a Nissan Micra.

DublinDilbert wrote: »

The build quality of the Auris Hybrid probably isn't amazing, but you can't fault that hybrid drive train. They are also much cheaper than an equivalent Prius. If your looking for a city car the Auris is great, couldn't fault it.

Thinking to testdrive a 09/10 Prius, an 11 Auris, and a 12 Auris (latest version) to see and feel the quality. Anything you'd suggest to pay attention to?

Soarer wrote: »

Or a Yaris Hybrid?

Yaris would be a downgrade on space, and correct me if I'm wrong but I think it also has a very small battery.

zilog_jones

You might not get away from rattly interiors so easily with a Prius - they have a lot of flimsy weird plant-based plastics in them and can be a bit noisy on rough roads. And it was supposed to be worse with the pre-facelift 3rd gen models (late '09-'12) although I have no experience with them.

Toyota hybrids actually have a combination of a planetary gears and the motors/generators in the transmission so it's mechanically not like a traditional CVT box at all, although is operated in a similar way.

And yes, the Yaris Hybrid has a smaller battery and smaller 1.5 petrol engine. For that kind of driving I'd say it's too small, and no upgrade from the Jazz/Fit.

The engine is assisted by the electric motor which provides much more torque so if the Gen II Prius was anything to go by, that 1.5 including the motor gave the equivalent power of a 2.0L once there was sufficient power in the battery, I.E if EV mode exists in the Auris, Yaris Hybrid, don't use it only for traffic lights where the engine won't switch off etc. Driving this way will effect economy and reduce power.

yannakis

I'm kind of leaning towards importing an '13 Auris from the UK as it comes pretty much at the same price level with an Irish '11 Prius!

They are both similar sized cars and share the same powertrain, correct? Is the Prius generally more expensive because it carries the "green" name? I haven't seen a '13 Auris up close yet, but I would expect materials and interior to be higher quality it being a newer model altogether - what do you think?

zilog_jones

The Prius is a larger car, and should be slightly more efficient as it has a better drag coefficient. Powertrain is the same compared to the third gen Prius. I haven't seen the interior of the Auris but it would be worth checking out or comparing the two locally. There's also the plug-in version of the Prius which was sold in the UK (what I have) - prices at that age are similar to standard Prius T4/T-Spirit (spec similar to T4) and both motor tax and VRT are lower.

I'd get the Prius if you can for the space, it's quiet a spacious car.

yannakis

I drove both a 2011 Prius and a 2013 Auris today.

Prius is indeed bigger, and the design in the cabin makes it feel even more spacious. However interior materials felt so average. Auris interior, on the other hand, is miles ahead but it front feels so cramped at the front - dash quality is beautiful but feels a bit too large for this vehicle..

Decision progress: back to square one :pac:

zilog_jones wrote: »

The Prius is a larger car, and should be slightly more efficient as it has a better drag coefficient. Powertrain is the same compared to the third gen Prius. I haven't seen the interior of the Auris but it would be worth checking out or comparing the two locally. There's also the plug-in version of the Prius which was sold in the UK (what I have) - prices at that age are similar to standard Prius T4/T-Spirit (spec similar to T4) and both motor tax and VRT are lower.

VRT calculator for (same specs/year/mileage) shows the PHEV 1,500e, and the non plug-in at 2,000 so that is a significant 25%. How much is the road tax for it?

Edit: figure was 20k instead of 2k.

It depends on what's more important to you, space or interior quality, personally the space is of more value to me. The Leaf for instance is too small, the prius had more room. Though I wouldn't go back, I just wish they made larger electrics.

Scottie99

Update on my Mrs Hybrid Auris - it's averaging around 5.3 or 53mpg. If you're looking to save fuel, this isn't the car for you

Scottie99

Scottie99 wrote: »

Update on my Mrs Hybrid Auris - it's averaging around 5.3 or 53mpg. If you're looking to save fuel, this isn't the car for you

How is this measured ? resetting the trip computer randomly or after a refill ? and is it being calculated in imperial miles per gallon or U.S ?

A auto diesel wouldn't do any better....

I could get 60-64 mpg in my MK II Prius. It does take a bit of learning to get the most out of the hybrid system.

There were many small towns and villages I could go through using a mix of coasting and battery to give it a bit of a push to allow me coast more. There was a certain throttle position that allowed neutral up to 67 Kph. There were plenty of conditions I could take full advantage.

The Hybrid won't have any major servicing as it gets older. And the hybrid tech is well proven. Personally even it cost me 100 a year extra to run the hybrid , I'd have the hybrid any day over diesel.

Scottie99

Deleted User wrote: »

How is this measured ? resetting the trip computer randomly or after a refill ? and is it being calculated in imperial miles per gallon or U.S ?

A auto diesel wouldn't do any better....

I could get 60-64 mpg in my MK II Prius. It does take a bit of learning to get the most out of the hybrid system.

There were many small towns and villages I could go through using a mix of coasting and battery to give it a bit of a push to allow me coast more. There was a certain throttle position that allowed neutral up to 67 Kph. There were plenty of conditions I could take full advantage.

The Hybrid won't have any major servicing as it gets older. And the hybrid tech is well proven. Personally even it cost me 100 a year extra to run the hybrid , I'd have the hybrid any day over diesel.

What tips would you give for driving the hybrid?

yannakis

Scottie99 wrote: »

What tips would you give for driving the hybrid?

A mildly American version :cool: https://youtu.be/3XxB6ma7qu8

Scottie99

Scottie99 wrote: »

What tips would you give for driving the hybrid?

Tyres, you need A rated tyres, this can make a big difference with any car, tyre pressure, I ran a round 38 psi. I have Goodyear efficient grip performance tyres on the Leaf now and I think they're good, much better wet grip at the expense of a little dry grip.

On the Prius I had Dunlop Sport Blu response or something like that and that helped me achieve the 60-64 mpg rating.

If you're driving at up to 67 kph (in the MK II Prius, I don't know about the Auris) and on a slight descent or hill you could back off the throttle and press gently and you can find neutral, this is where you're not using any power from the engine or motor and you're coasting, coasting means you are using the energy used, braking means you're wasting it, the idea is use only what you need.

If you need a bit more shove press the accelerator again until you get some battery power, this can make a significant difference to economy, coasting and some battery shove.

I'm not sure how this works in the auris or any other Toyota hybrid. I can get neutral in the Leaf and it works exactly the same way only I have a crap more battery power but it helps by coasting when I can.

Scottie99

Deleted User wrote: »

Tyres, you need A rated tyres, this can make a big difference with any car, tyre pressure, I ran a round 38 psi. I have Goodyear efficient grip performance tyres on the Leaf now and I think they're good, much better wet grip at the expense of a little dry grip.

On the Prius I had Dunlop Sport Blu response or something like that and that helped me achieve the 60-64 mpg rating.

If you're driving at up to 67 kph (in the MK II Prius, I don't know about the Auris) and on a slight descent or hill you could back off the throttle and press gently and you can find neutral, this is where you're not using any power from the engine or motor and you're coasting, coasting means you are using the energy used, braking means you're wasting it, the idea is use only what you need.

If you need a bit more shove press the accelerator again until you get some battery power, this can make a significant difference to economy, coasting and some battery shove.

I'm not sure how this works in the auris or any other Toyota hybrid. I can get neutral in the Leaf and it works exactly the same way only I have a crap more battery power but it helps by coasting when I can.

I passed this on tae the Mrs. I prefer my Leaf any day..

Scottie99

Scottie99 wrote: »

I passed this on tae the Mrs. I prefer my Leaf any day..

Absolutely, the pure electric only drive is fantastic !

Soarer

Scottie99 wrote: »

What tips would you give for driving the hybrid?

Get your missus out of it!

zilog_jones

YanisK wrote: »

I drove both a 2011 Prius and a 2013 Auris today.

Prius is indeed bigger, and the design in the cabin makes it feel even more spacious. However interior materials felt so average. Auris interior, on the other hand, is miles ahead but it front feels so cramped at the front - dash quality is beautiful but feels a bit too large for this vehicle..

The Prius had a facelift in early 2012, although I'm not too sure how much (if any) of the interior changed as I haven't been in a pre-facelift model. But even on mine (post-facelift) there's a lot hard thin-feeling plastic - I think a lot of it was down to using plant-based plastics and keeping weight down. I find it annoying when passengers rest their leg against the centre console because it creaks so much I do think it's well layed out and has plenty of storage space, and I also think the HUD is great (the Leaf seems like such a downgrade without one!).

VRT calculator for (same specs/year/mileage) shows the PHEV 1,500e, and the non plug-in at 2,000 so that is a significant 25%. How much is the road tax for it?

I payed about €1400 for VRT for a 2012 model a few months ago. Motor tax is €170 - only a tenner less than the standard Prius (A1 vs. A2 bands).

Scottie99 wrote: »

Update on my Mrs Hybrid Auris - it's averaging around 5.3 or 53mpg. If you're looking to save fuel, this isn't the car for you

I'd get about that only when driving a constant 120km/h on motorways (130km/h indicated) with the Prius. No car is that efficient at that speed. You'd be surprised how much you can you reduce fuel consumption by going down to about 100km/h (about 109km/h indicated in the Prius) - I can easily get 65-70 MPG depending on conditions. And you'd barely notice the difference in time taken.

Deleted User wrote: »

How is this measured ? resetting the trip computer randomly or after a refill ? and is it being calculated in imperial miles per gallon or U.S ?

5.3 l/100 km = 53 MPG (imperial), so it couldn't have been US gallons (both were mentioned).

There were many small towns and villages I could go through using a mix of coasting and battery to give it a bit of a push to allow me coast more. There was a certain throttle position that allowed neutral up to 67 Kph. There were plenty of conditions I could take full advantage.

I would be careful about the terminology used here: "Coasting" generally refers to driving with the transmission in neutral (inefficient in any modern car, and disengages the hybrid system in Toyota hybrids which means no regen), and one could also interpret saying "neutral" as putting the transmission in neutral, when I think you may mean a 0% reading on the Hybrid System Indicator (i.e. sticking to the boundary between CHG and EV/ECO)?

Coasting is when the vehicle is moving but not being powered, doesn't have to mean being in neutral and that's not what I was talking about.

zilog_jones

I think there's a general assumption that "coasting" refers to a physical disconnect between the drivetrain and wheels, i.e. in neutral or clutch disengaged. Any other discussion I've seen about coasting refers to this (even when talking about hybrids or BEVs, because people do this for whatever reason), so I think it's confusing or misleading to apply the term to a condition when you're in D and actually applying the throttle. The HSI has a tenuous connection to reality, so it's likely some power is still being applied when there is no indication.

n97 mini

YanisK wrote: »

Prius is indeed bigger, and the design in the cabin makes it feel even more spacious. However interior materials felt so average..

We had the same model Prius (3rd generation) for 3 years. Despite having leather (unheated) seats it had the lowest quality interior of any car we've ever owned. The plastics scratch easily and everything creaks. After a while little buzzes and rattles developed. In that regard it was quite a step down from the 2003 Civic IMA we had for 6 years before it which had a beautiful tan leather and black dash colour scheme of much higher quality. (The ad is still on adverts.)

The 1.8 litre engine in the Prius has pretty low specific output (98bhp) and the combination of that, being heavier than your average 1.8 litre car, the CVT gearbox and drive-by-wire it's not a quick car, and the handling is kind of boaty. It was better for overtaking than the Civic IMA, but in every other way the Civic was the better car.

zilog_jones

Well it's 98 bhp plus the electric motor - MG2 apparently will do 80 bhp max but I'm not sure if that ever happens in normal driving (I've seen about 60 bhp). Toyota claims a combined power of 134 bhp. And due to reducing weight elsewhere (e.g. sound proofing and those nice interior plastics ) it's actually not that heavy - lighter than the 1.6 Avensis diesel for example (also quicker acceleration and more powerful).

I test drove the MK III Prius a few years ago and it had a nice bit of extra power over the MK II. Can't say it felt any under powered at all.

n97 mini

zilog_jones wrote: »

Well it's 98 bhp plus the electric motor - MG2 apparently will do 80 bhp max but I'm not sure if that ever happens in normal driving (I've seen about 60 bhp). Toyota claims a combined power of 134 bhp. And due to reducing weight elsewhere (e.g. sound proofing and those nice interior plastics ) it's actually not that heavy - lighter than the 1.6 Avensis diesel for example (also quicker acceleration and more powerful).

My point was (ignoring the motor, but I'll get back to that) that 98 bhp is on the low side for a 1.8L petrol engine, it's probably closer to what a typical 1.5L puts out. When it comes to the electric motor there is only limited overlap as both have different power and torque curves. At low speeds the electric motor is more pronounced but at 100 km/h+ its influence is greatly reduced.

yannakis

n97 mini wrote: »

My point was (ignoring the motor, but I'll get back to that) that 98 bhp is on the low side for a 1.8L petrol engine, it's probably closer to what a typical 1.5L puts out. When it comes to the electric motor there is only limited overlap as both have different power and torque curves. At low speeds the electric motor is more pronounced but at 100 km/h+ its influence is greatly reduced.

This is an Atkinson cycle 1.8L engine - not a conventional 1.8 (Otto cycle). Atkinson cycle engines (compared to Otto) have increased efficiency and decreased power output.

Example: Otto (natural aspirated) 1.2/1.4L and Atkinson 1.8L have similar power output with the latter being more efficient/economical.

(Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall reading that Atkinson engines produce less vibrations as well)

For the different power and torque curves of the ICE and the MG1/2 take a look at this extremely useful link to see how they integrate http://eahart.com/prius/psd/

n97 mini

YanisK wrote: »

This is an Atkinson cycle 1.8L engine - not a conventional 1.8 (Otto cycle). Atkinson cycle engines (compared to Otto) have increased efficiency and decreased power output.

I'm aware (we owned one for 3 years, and it was our 3rd hybrid!) it's Atkinson cycle. There's also some speculation that Toyota was partially motivated to go Atkinson to avoid royalties due on Otto cycle engines, though I can't find a link now.

YanisK wrote: »

For the different power and torque curves of the ICE and the MG1/2 take a look at this extremely useful link to see how they integrate http://eahart.com/prius/psd/

Very cool page!

The thing is that the hubrid drive works at all speeds , depending on the power in the battery and due to the CVT it will allow the motor to still have decent power to assist the engine at speed.

zilog_jones

I believe the Atkinson cycle engines are easier to start as well?

n97 mini wrote: »

There's also some speculation that Toyota was partially motivated to go Atkinson to avoid royalties due on Otto cycle engines, though I can't find a link now.

That doesn't make a lot of sense. These are more modified Otto cycle engines than real Atkinson cycle - and both are 19th century inventions. The 2ZR-FXE engine in the 3rd gen Prius is based on the Otto cycle ZR series so not much different. The latest technology (which could potentially be patented) in these would probably be Valvematic (continuous variable valve timing and lift) which is present on all ZRs, and that's been around for nearly 10 years anyway.

n97 mini

zilog_jones wrote: »

That doesn't make a lot of sense.

I actually agree. The patents would have run out by now. I can't remember where I read it...

yannakis

So finally I grabbed a 2010 Prius T-spirit from the North with 40k miles.

It was due for the 40k service - got GBP200 off and took it to Toyota myself. All good but will have to return in 500km to complete the Hybrid system check

Excellent, best of luck.