Neighbours built shed using party wall without consent

alannah8

Asking for somebody else:

New Neighbours (i.e. new build and haven't moved in yet) have built shed using the boundary/party wall without consent.

Does anybody have any comments on this? There are other things they have done too but seriously what an a**hole thing to do!

The person I'm asking on behalf of is not confrontational but upset.

What repercussions does this have?

How could you remedy this?

Legally!

Thanks

nhunter100

Their side of the party wall, what's the problem.Plus going down the legal route with new neighbours doesn't bode well for the future. Maybe go and have a friendly chat.

readytosnap

Do the same

alannah8

They are actually using the party wall as the wall of their shed. They havent built another wall inside this.
They have put some kind of metal cladding over the party wall (I'm useless at the terminology) which is a wall that was built about 50 yrs ago - they're kind of 'claiming it' so, their shed roof will use the entire top of the wall. You cant build on top of their roof...
They also chopped down ornamental ivy and shoved it back over the wall in order to do this....

Calahonda52

alannah8 wrote: »

They also chopped down ornamental ivy and shoved it back over the wall in order to do this....

That bit is fine.

Which does rain water go?

the rest is covered here:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2009/act/27/enacted/en/print#part8-chap3

Sleeper12

Calahonda52 wrote:

Which does rain water go?

This is the main issue. It shouldn't run onto your p

alannah8

Calahonda and Sleeper

from the statutory book I don't think the conditions are met:

4.— (1) Subject to subsection (2), a building owner may carry out works to a party structure for the purpose of—

(a) compliance with any statutory provision or any notice or order under such a provision, or

(b) carrying out development which is exempted development or development for which planning permission has been obtained or compliance with any condition attached to such permission, or

(c) preservation of the party structure or of any building or unbuilt-on land of which it forms a part, or

(d) carrying out any other works which—

(i) will not cause substantial damage or inconvenience to the adjoining owner, or

(ii) if they may or will cause such damage or inconvenience, it is nevertheless reasonable to carry them out.

How do they know it won't cause inconvenience if they haven't asked?

Doesn't it mean that the wall cannot now be used for similar structures?

Don't know about the rainwater as it hasn't been roofed yet... it might be a flat roof..

Corca Baiscinn

Doesn't it mean that the wall cannot now be used for similar structures?

Don't know about the rainwater as it hasn't been roofed yet... it might be a flat roof.

OP, I don't know anything about construction but afaik, there no reason why a shed or similar structure cannot be built on both sides of a party wall. When we moved into our house the previous owners and neighbour had collaborated on building a flat-roof shed on each side of the dividing wall and later we again collaborated in order to change the roof to a pitched roof. The neighbours at the back of us have a similar arrangement but the sheds were not built at the same time.
Re rainwater, presumably they intend to put the drainage on their own side but worth checking with builder or neighbour.
I agree that it is discourteous to a neighbour not to let them know of intended work even when it is not a planning requirement.

Sleeper12

Corca Baiscinn wrote:

Don't know about the rainwater as it hasn't been roofed yet... it might be a flat roof.

A flat roof isn't actually flat. It has to drain in one direction or the other. It shouldn't drain on your property

Gumbo

You need to approach the builders now before its finished.
Tell them they are encroaching on your property and to halt until a remedy/agreement is in place.

Tell them you planned to build a shed also and you want to see how the two structures will work side by side considering the boundary wall has been compromised.

Take loads of photos. Once you mention legal involvement, any builder worth their salt should stop and come to a reasonable remedy.

It's also a civil issue, so no council involvement, you'd have to take legal action yourself.

shopper2011

He is entitled to build a shed on his property. Using the parting wall is actually a very sensible thing to do, providing, he had talked to the owner of the other side of the wall (has he?) If ye talked, ye should share the wall. Why not call over and explain your concerns and take half the wall for yourself.
Talking legal threats as some others advised is never useful talk, and only going to create hostilities. (It will cost you more than taking half the wall now)

alannah8

He never asked for permission or had a discussion. Its not my wall, its someone else I am asking on behalf of, another neighbour who is very non confrontational.

As I said, they never asked, cut back and basically shoved ornamental ivy into the garden and then used the wall to build on.

The people I am asking on behalf of, are upset but not inclined to do anything about it.

Turtle_

shopper2011 wrote: »

He is entitled to build a shed on his property. Using the parting wall is actually a very sensible thing to do, providing, he had talked to the owner of the other side of the wall (has he?) If ye talked, ye should share the wall. Why not call over and explain your concerns and take half the wall for yourself.
Talking legal threats as some others advised is never useful talk, and only going to create hostilities. (He will win in a court)

I'm curious as to where you're getting your ideas from. If the party wall is jointly owned, neither neighbour has a right to exclusive use of it without agreement of both parties. The OP clearly states that they're using all of the party wall without consent or agreement. Where are you getting the idea that the OP's friend would lose that battle?

I'm not saying they should go legal immediately. The very first thing they should do is go out the back and tell the builder to stop work on the shed immediately because use of the party wall has not been agreed. If you don't have details for contacting the new owners, ask the builder to get them to contact you asap.

you need to find a mutually agreeable solution. I'd recommend approaching it with an attitude of finding a resolution with the neighbour rather than confrontation. In terms of resolution, this could be rebuilding that section of wall and leaving a parapet off which your friend can subsequently build (signed and dated letter of agreement needed), or have the neighbour build tight up against the wall and flash over it. The key is to find a way that enables them to get the shed they want without preventing your friend from doing the same at some point in the future.

There's a real possibility they're just clueless and the builder told them to go ahead and build off it, sure aren't you "allowed" :rolleyes:

Turtle_

alannah8 wrote: »

He never asked for permission or had a discussion. Its not my wall, its someone else I am asking on behalf of, another neighbour who is very non confrontational.

As I said, they never asked, cut back and basically shoved ornamental ivy into the garden and then used the wall to build on.

The people I am asking on behalf of, are upset but not inclined to do anything about it.

Can you act on their behalf?

Shint0

alannah8 wrote: »

As I said, they never asked, cut back and basically shoved ornamental ivy into the garden and then used the wall to build on.

The people I am asking on behalf of, are upset but not inclined to do anything about it.

Just picking up on that point from your other post in the Gardening forum, if any branches or foliage from a neighbouring property are overhanging onto your property you have a right to cut them back to the boundary. Legally you are actually supposed to return them to the owner as it's their property but most people probably don't do that and just dispose of it themselves. So from a legal point of view that's fine so long as they didn't damage the entire plant that exists on the neighbour's property by trimming back their own side.

Gumbo

shopper2011 wrote: »

He is entitled to build a shed on his property. Using the parting wall is actually a very sensible thing to do, providing, he had talked to the owner of the other side of the wall (has he?) If ye talked, ye should share the wall. Why not call over and explain your concerns and take half the wall for yourself.
Talking legal threats as some others advised is never useful talk, and only going to create hostilities. (He will win in a court)

Correct, he is entitled to build within his own property.
The boundary wall needs a boundary wall agreement to proceed.
A parapet should be built up in its place in order to allow the op to build in the future.

Also, if one was to be pedantic, the planning exemptions specifically state that to be exempt, the structure must be within the curtilidge of the site, building on the boundary passes into another site but this would never really be enforced in my experience.

Also, I don't think anyone said to go legal, but merely pointed out that it's a civil issue and the only way to sort it is legally as the ounces will not get involved.

cerastes

kceire wrote: »

Correct, he is entitled to build within his own property.
The boundary wall needs a boundary wall agreement to proceed.
A parapet should be built up in its place in order to allow the op to build in the future.

Also, if one was to be pedantic, the planning exemptions specifically state that to be exempt, the structure must be within the curtilidge of the site, building on the boundary passes into another site but this would never really be enforced in my experience.

Also, I don't think anyone said to go legal, but merely pointed out that it's a civil issue and the only way to sort it is legally as the ounces will not get involved.

Id have thought more than a parapet would be needed, plus if what Im considering a parapet is, wouldnt that be potentially an issue for drainage/unsightly especially for the person who doesnt own the build?

I say this as a neighbour of mine on one side mentioned about building an extension to their house, they said they planned to leave a virtually unuseable space in their garden between theirs and mine. Ive said they may as well build up to their side of the point which joins the properties, my view being if they are to build, they may as well not lose the space in a small garden, so long as I can join to it in the event I do the same thing at a later time. I think if I'm in agreement with them on that then they may as well put a foundation wide enough that I could build on later if required.

Ive thought we should get a written legal agreement on this, but Ive wondered if a written agrrement between ourselves would be the same thing.
My main concern is the size which they have told me they intend to build, I consider they might not leave enough garden space, ie a large extension relative to the garden sizes. As they want to knock the adjoining garden wall anyway, they want me to chip in for its renewal, which I consider a bit odd given its their choice to knock it to build an extension.

Calahonda52

shopper2011 wrote: »

He is entitled to build a shed on his property. Using the parting wall is actually a very sensible thing to do, providing, he had talked to the owner of the other side of the wall (has he?) If ye talked, ye should share the wall. Why not call over and explain your concerns and take half the wall for yourself.
Talking legal threats as some others advised is never useful talk, and only going to create hostilities. ()

Win what exactly?
8 posts in and you are already clearly an expert on property and constitutional rights so please share your expertise.
Lets start with this
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2009/act/27/enacted/en/print
How does this show
He will win in a court

Chromosphere

Actually, just to jump in on this question.

A friend of mine has an end-of-terrace house in Dublin which has no access to the gable wall as it is in someone's garden. The neighbours have built a bathroom up against their gable wall and it is creating issues.

Water leaked in through the wall due to a bathroom leak and damaged decor and they've also mounted a noisy electric shower on the wall which is now loudly audible in their living room everytime they shower.

It looks like they just built a structure against the wall and actually plastered the external bricks!

Any way that can be dealt with legally?

The person in question has no access whatsoever to the external wall and the house is at the other side is rented and the landlord doesn't seem to have much of a personal interest in doing anything about it and the tenants have no control over the structural issues so can't do anything other than pass communication on to the landlord who doesn't seem to respond.

They have even been awkward about allowing access for pointing repairs at roof level. In order to gain access to a fairly significant wall repair at roof level scaffolding had to go up in the yard of the other house and the landlord was exceptionally difficult about it and only moved on it when a threat of legal action was mentioned.

Calahonda52

Is the neighbours and the landlord one and the same.
What do you mean by the house on the other side?
Its a bit hard to follow tbh:(

What does the title deeds show as to where the boundary is?
The legislation link I listed first above is the way to go

Johnnyhpipe

So lets say you spend a fortune on legal fees, take him to court, he's forced to take the shed down....what difference does it make to your life? You haven't lost space in any event and your life won't be dramatically different than if he had built 215mm inside the boundary line.

The boundary wall is what it is - a shared wall. If the foundation is adequate then he's entitled to load his "half".

In summary - life's too short, move on, enjoy.

sydthebeat

the question was answered in the 5th post in the thread... to the effect that

you do NOT need your neighbours permission to carry out works to or on party structures as long as you meet certain conditions

which basically break down as not inconveniencing the neightbour in terms of time, money or end product.

Turtle_

sydthebeat wrote: »

the question was answered in the 5th post in the thread... to the effect that

you do NOT need your neighbours permission to carry out works to or on party structures as long as you meet certain conditions

which basically break down as not inconveniencing the neightbour in terms of time, money or end product.

Sorry but this is incomplete, you do need their agreement to use their side of the wall.

readytosnap

This thread has thrown up a shed load of ideas.

Chromosphere

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Is the neighbours and the landlord one and the same.
What do you mean by the house on the other side?
Its a bit hard to follow tbh:(

What does the title deeds show as to where the boundary is?
The legislation link I listed first above is the way to go

It's an end of terrace house over 120 years old. There is no access to the side gable wall. This wall doubles as the boundary wall of a neighbouring property's small back garden. That property has constructed an extension over their garden and there is a noisy pumped electric shower mounted directly onto the wall. When their shower is running you can hear the pump in the living room - It's louder than the TV. This shower area leaked water and it came through the exterior wall and into my friends house, destroying all the plastering and decor.

They're old brick houses and I would assume that some damage has been done to the structure as the water shouldn't have been able to penetrate. We have no idea what has been done to the wall as it's now been made an interior wall of a building ....

The property owner paid for repairs but they didn't modify the structure.

They won't allow my friend to inspect the wall or access the property to find out what going on and water keeps intermittently leaking through. It's fairly serious as it resulted in an entire wall having to be re plastered and damage to electrical fittings and the flooring.

The other property is rented so the tenants don't have much control over sorting this out and they have been exceptionally awkward about facilitating access for other works on the gable wall re do pointing on a chimney. They claimed it would disturb their baby and wanted 8 weeks notice and only works carried out between certain narrow hours, no works on Saturdays or Friday evenings etc etc

sydthebeat

Turtle_ wrote: »

Sorry but this is incomplete, you do need their agreement to use their side of the wall.

Did you read the regs?

You actually don't need their permission to use the wall..... And why would you be using their side of the wall??

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

sydthebeat

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Then that is beyond the scope of the party structure regulations and actually constitutes trespassing.
The op has the right to remove any structure which is beyond the centre line of the party wall.

Curly Judge

Chromosphere wrote: »

It's an end of terrace house over 120 years old. There is no access to the side gable wall. This wall doubles as the boundary wall of a neighbouring property's small back garden. That property has constructed an extension over their garden and there is a noisy pumped electric shower mounted directly onto the wall. When their shower is running you can hear the pump in the living room - It's louder than the TV. This shower area leaked water and it came through the exterior wall and into my friends house, destroying all the plastering and decor.

They're old brick houses and I would assume that some damage has been done to the structure as the water shouldn't have been able to penetrate. We have no idea what has been done to the wall as it's now been made an interior wall of a building ....

The property owner paid for repairs but they didn't modify the structure.

They won't allow my friend to inspect the wall or access the property to find out what going on and water keeps intermittently leaking through. It's fairly serious as it resulted in an entire wall having to be re plastered and damage to electrical fittings and the flooring.

The other property is rented so the tenants don't have much control over sorting this out and they have been exceptionally awkward about facilitating access for other works on the gable wall re do pointing on a chimney. They claimed it would disturb their baby and wanted 8 weeks notice and only works carried out between certain narrow hours, no works on Saturdays or Friday evenings etc etc

Nip down to the local tool hire and sign out a mid sized Hilti drill and a masonry bit.
Drill a 20mm hole through your wall into their shower enclosure.
Next time they start showering, put your mouth up to the hole and shout, "You're looking fierce well"!
That should sort it.

edanto

@alannah8 - Go with the advice of Turtle_ & kceire. While your friend may not wish to have any confrontation, it is essential to raise this issue with the shed builder and have them stop work immediately pending an agreement.

The main risk would be the restrictions brought on by these works; neither your friend nor any future owner of the property will be able to build a shed/extension using the normal methods of sharing the party wall (or party wall space).

It's easily solved, but the first step is to talk to the builder and then quickly to the new owners. The new owners may not be aware of how it encroaches.

@Chromosphere - it sounds more serious in the gable wall case. I would have presumed that the gable wall belongs 100% to the house and is not shared with the owner of the adjacent garden. Check that out, I'm not sure. If it is true, if your friend owns 100% of the gable wall, then presumably the gable wall owners permission would have been needed to fix anything to it; and we know that permission wasn't sought. My guess would be that the builder/landlord would have to make good the cost of the water damage too.

Give Building Control a call Monday morning and see what they have to say. If you're in Dublin City Council area - seems like these are the people to call:

http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-planning/building-control

Curly Judge

To answer the OP: if this is a properly positioned boundary wall then the border of your property runs along the middle of that wall.
It therefor stands to reason that if your new neighbour is using the full width of the wall as one side of his shed he is encroaching on your property.
Apart from his downright chutzpah in assuming such a right, these unopposed liberties can have serious implications down the road, especially when it comes to selling on the encroached upon property.
This mans disregard for your friend's property doesn't bode well for future co-existence.
Try to convince him/her to act now in the most positive and forceful way commensurate with common civility.

alannah8

Thanks Edanto and Curly Judge. I will pass on the advice to my friend but don't know that they'll do anything. She said they hadn't thought about building on that wall but the implications of problems during resale might cause her to think.

Chutzpah, in this case, is a euphemism!!

Chromosphere

edanto wrote: »

@Chromosphere - it sounds more serious in the gable wall case. I would have presumed that the gable wall belongs 100% to the house and is not shared with the owner of the adjacent garden. Check that out, I'm not sure. If it is true, if your friend owns 100% of the gable wall, then presumably the gable wall owners permission would have been needed to fix anything to it; and we know that permission wasn't sought. My guess would be that the builder/landlord would have to make good the cost of the water damage too.

Give Building Control a call Monday morning and see what they have to say. If you're in Dublin City Council area - seems like these are the people to call:

http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-planning/building-control

That's great info thanks and apologies OP for crashing your thread with my question! Just spotted it and it's kinda relevant

edanto

You're both welcome. I'd be interested to know what comes of both situations maybe you could update the thread with developments?