Ban on burkinis - French police tell women to remove clothing

mahamageehad

Hey ladies, I haven't seen a thread on this here so I wanted to get your thoughts on it. I saw this picture shared online earlier and I thought it was really powerful:



The source is this article, but I'll give you an overview to save you a click! During the week pictures and stories started circulating in France about armed guards telling women to remove items of clothing at beaches/pools. Authorities in 15 towns in France have banned burkinis, citing public concern. They have also said that they are "empowering" the women.

For a very different view point, here is an article written by the creator of the burkini. She said that she had never been able to swim in a public pool before inventing it, and the inspiration was her niece who couldn't participate in sports in her burka.

I am not Islam, nor am I a fan of the burka. However, it makes me very uneasy that armed guards are patrolling what women are wearing. The comparison picture I shared above is from 1925 on West Palm Beach where swimsuits were measured, to ensure that it conformed with regulations introduced by beach censors. 100 years later and we are still telling women what they can and can't wear on a beach.

I know I'm over simplifying. France has a peculiar relationship with religion, particularly in recent years. I'm not on the ground there so I don't know of any racial tensions that may exist. However, when I'm on foreign beaches I often wear a full length breezy skirt and have my arms and head covered, especially if I am already burnt. My Irish skin can't take much above 24 degrees! :P There is definitely some problems with religion in the world at the minute, but how much skin is on show on a beach is not one of them. What do you ladies think?

emo72

Once saw a woman in Spain in a local swimming pool wearing one. Bless my heart but I was shocked. In that heat the poor girl was forced to wear a plastic monstrosity. It's wrong I tell yis. WRONG.

mahamageehad

roachlord wrote: »

...
I can't be certain but Ive got the impression that if you wear an everyday clothing based full body costume to end up with the same effect you'll be ok anyway - so no great loss.

Some kind of full length cotton top and full length beach pants and you'll be fine as far as I know, seems they're going after the specific garment and what it signifies and promotes.
...

That's the problem though roachlord. Look at the woman in that first picture, she is not wearing a burkini. She is simply wearing clothes. It looks like black leggings, a black t shirt, a blue throw over and a scarf to me.

I stated in my post that I'm not a fan of the burka. The majority of people on seeing a person in a burka assume she is forced to do it, hence the dislike. This is mainly because it comes from a culture that tends to look down on women and think of them as Madonna or whöres. However, there are many women from those cultures that embrace the burka. I have seen many young girls with headscarfs who look amazing, full makeup and beautiful coloured scarves pinned in very complex, elegant ways. If they are walking alone in public like that, they are not from a background of oppression. If so they would be in the kitchen, silent, where they "belong".

To bring it closer to home, there's not a whole pile of difference between a burka and the clothes a nun has to wear because she's a nun. If these women choose to wear a burka, and want to swim, they can't. It's a lot of fabric and it's pretty bulky. This is not a case of forcing a woman who is used to wearing a bikini into wearing a full length costume, it's a case of allowing women who wear full clothes all the time (either by choice or by oppression) to wear a little less in the summer.

looksee

mahamageehad wrote: »

That's the problem though roachlord. Look at the woman in that first picture, she is not wearing a burkini. She is simply wearing clothes. It looks like black leggings, a black t shirt, a blue throw over and a scarf to me.

I stated in my post that I'm not a fan of the burka. The majority of people on seeing a person in a burka assume she is forced to do it, hence the dislike. This is mainly because it comes from a culture that tends to look down on women and think of them as Madonna or whöres. However, there are many women from those cultures that embrace the burka. I have seen many young girls with headscarfs who look amazing, full makeup and beautiful coloured scarves pinned in very complex, elegant ways. If they are walking alone in public like that, they are not from a background of oppression. If so they would be in the kitchen, silent, where they "belong".

To bring it closer to home, there's not a whole pile of difference between a burka and the clothes a nun has to wear because she's a nun. If these women choose to wear a burka, and want to swim, they can't. It's a lot of fabric and it's pretty bulky. This is not a case of forcing a woman who is used to wearing a bikini into wearing a full length costume, it's a case of allowing women who wear full clothes all the time (either by choice or by oppression) to wear a little less in the summer.

You are totally missing the point that the burqa is the garment that covers the body and face. A headscarf/hijab is a different thing altogether, while it is modest clothing it does not cover the face.

The comparison with a nun does not really work as nuns actively opt into wearing the clothing, and in fact many of them do not now wear the full veil garment(s).

The burkini is a bit disingenuous as the objective of the burqa is to cover not only the woman's skin, but her shape as well, which the burkini does not do. I doubt anyone being forced to wear the full burqa would be allowed to wear a burkini. However to dictate what can and cannot be worn on a beach is ridiculous, there is no justification for deciding that this particular trousers and top is allowed, and another one is not.

dudara

Putting the religion out of it, this is a case of a woman being told she MUST undress on a beach. It's a dreadful violation of her rights.

If an elderly lady with a headscarf, or a nun in her wimple was on the beach, would the French police ask her to undress too?

It's disgusting that armed police are directing what women should wear.
I'm not sure what the problem France has with women wearing burkas is?
Just because it's religious clothing?

If Muslim women are forced to wear the burka by the oppressive Muslim men, then surely France are just as bad, by forcing them to take off whatever clothing they are wearing.

meeeeh

I actually have absolutely no problem with burka to be banned in fact I agree with it. It's an awful item of clothing which is also dangerous for the women wearing it. I think everything should be done to eradicate a practice of women needing to cover eyes with the veil and keep their mouth covered. It's such an abusive item of clothing and if wearing one is a symbol of female freedom it is the type of freedom I don't want to be part of.

Burkini is different. It's a moronic piece of clothing to wear at 30 degrees C but it's a lot less oppressive and it actually lets women do things that they otherwise wouldn't be allowed to do. I might not like the fact that there is a market for it and need to wear it but I think on balance it is probably more positive than not.

I have no problem with actions of police. Their role is to follow the rules and until the ban is lifted that is the rule. And considering some of them were scraping dead bodys of the pavement couple of months ago I can understand why they are walking around with tear gas and armed.

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

I have no problem with actions of police. Their role is to follow the rules and until the ban is lifted that is the rule. And considering some of them were scraping dead bodys of the pavement couple of months ago I can understand why they are walking around with tear gas and armed.

As an armed guard I would have a serious problem if I was directed to tell a woman what to wear, intimidating women is not part of my job description!

eviltwin

I saw a mum and her two girls wearing one in the national aquatic centre a few weeks back. The man they were with was wearing normal swim shorts, so modesty is a one way street apparently....

Anyway it looked odd amid all the other swimwear and looked impractical for actually swimming in but what of it. I saw women wearing tee shirts and leggings but that would go unchecked.

I don't agree with women being told what to wear and I trust women to make their own decisions about it. We make assumptions about Muslim women being oppressed but how many of us actually bother to ask them how they feel about it?

So , yeah, I don't care what people wear on a beach and don't see the burkini as a problem but I have massive issues with women being forced to dress a certain way.

Sapphire

I disagree with it.

Do cops really think if a woman is forced to wear a burka by her domineering husband out in public and it's now banned, that this husband will have a road-to-Damascus moment and suddenly allow his wife out in shorts and a t-shirt? No way. He'll point her in the direction of online shopping and she'll be further isolated from society staring at the four walls all day. He's not gonna give a flying fcuk if his wife cant leave the house anymore. In fact, its moving the treatment of muslim women more towards the Saudi model, which would actually be ideal for him. if that's where his beliefs lie.

Things like even having a coffee with a friend, doctor appointments or doing English lessons would be out of bounds for her. Ditto going to her kids school play, or family days out. What kind of a life is that? So I feel that French cops are only compounding the problem of the segregation and isolation of women from this culture.

I was housebound after an operation for 6 weeks. I could take short walks down the street but nothing more strenous as that. I was going nuts being at home after 3 weeks. When I could finally go on a bus or drive it was like this:

So I cant imagine that a woman who can barely leave the house is going to have any quality of life or enjoy secular France.

Even if the woman is not forced to wear it, and its a choice, then the little she chooses to display of her body is her choice. I wouldn't feel comfortable in a bikini for example, and I'd feel humiliated and embarrassed and violated if a cop stopped me in my swim suit and demanded I wear tiny triangles instead.

I deeply dislike the burka and all it stands for, but I will defend a woman's right to wear what she wants, when she wants. And if a burkini means that girls are allowed to do sports, or a burka means that they get to freely access education, healthcare and be part of society, then its a necessary evil imo.

The advent of the burkini is pushing the boundaries of a burka -slowly but still, better than nothing. The more Muslim women see others wear them, the more it becomes a bit more normalised and non-remarkable. Maybe that will lead then to feeling its ok to wear a shirt and trousers, or drop the face veil. It will take time I'm sure, but forcing it is not the answer.

meeeeh

Sapphire wrote: »

I disagree with it.

Do cops really think if a woman is forced to wear a burka by her domineering husband out in public and it's now banned, that this husband will have a road-to-Damascus moment and suddenly allow his wife out in shorts and a t-shirt? No way. He'll point her in the direction of online shopping and she'll be further isolated from society staring at the four walls all day. He's not gonna give a flying fcuk if his wife cant leave the house anymore. In fact, its moving the treatment of muslim women more towards the Saudi model, which would actually be ideal for him. if that's where his beliefs lie.

Things like even having a coffee with a friend, doctor appointments or doing English lessons would be out of bounds for her. Ditto going to her kids school play, or family days out. What kind of a life is that? So I feel that French cops are only compounding the problem of the segregation and isolation of women from this culture.

Sorry I don't buy that logic. It's Like saying we will let parents to hit their kids because otherwise social services could take them away.

Burka covers the whole head, eyes and everything. It severely impacts mobility and field of vision. Going up the stairs or crossing the road and so on is much harder. If a man decides to lock his wife in the house because her eyes could be seen it is a violence against women and I don't think state should sponsor it. As would be violence against women to force someone to walk around with her eyes covered.

I'm not saying women should be forced to loose head scarves or other cover ups but I most certainly draw the line at covering the eyes and mouth in public. How could a woman dressed like that even have a coffee with a friend or have something to eat outside home? Going to the bank or other places under proper security is out. If they don't let in people wearing masks, why would they let in someone with completely covered face.

Sapphire

meeeeh wrote: »

If a man decides to lock his wife in the house because her eyes could be seen it is a violence against women and I don't think state should sponsor it. As would be violence against women to force someone to walk around with her eyes covered.

If cops are perceived to be oppressors of Muslim women outside the home she's hardly going to ring them when the husband uses DV on her now, is she?

meeeeh

Sapphire wrote: »

If cops are perceived to be oppressors of Muslim women outside the home she's hardly going to ring them when the husband uses DV on her now, is she?

Well the same could be said for any victim of domestic violence who doesn't trust the police.

retro:electro

Pretty apt

meeeeh

The ban is suspended until supreme court produces more considered judgement. It was a stupid idea that was probably part of (in a way understandable) backslash against muslims and at least for now it will calm the situation. And then it will be too cold for sun bathing anyway.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/top-french-court-suspends-ban-on-burkini-swimsuits-1.2769468

Sapphire

meeeeh wrote: »

Burka covers the whole head, eyes and everything. It severely impacts mobility and field of vision. Going up the stairs or crossing the road and so on is much harder. If a man decides to lock his wife in the house because her eyes could be seen it is a violence against women and I don't think state should sponsor it. As would be violence against women to force someone to walk around with her eyes covered.

I'm not saying women should be forced to loose head scarves or other cover ups but I most certainly draw the line at covering the eyes and mouth in public. How could a woman dressed like that even have a coffee with a friend or have something to eat outside home? Going to the bank or other places under proper security is out. If they don't let in people wearing masks, why would they let in someone with completely covered face.

The woman on the beach had her face displayed. This is what kicked off the whole debate. It's one thing to ban a face covering burka on the streets and in the shops for identification purposes, but quite another to make a woman who for whatever reason feels uncomfortable displaying her bare arms and her hair strip off to a level that is distressing to her. Did they make all the white people wearing long sleeves and sun hats take off theirs too? No. They targeted her because of her skin colour and because of her attire which indicated what religion she may be.

They are pretty much identical to the UV suits with a hat to cover the neck that you'd put on a young child on a beach, and are very common. If women who burn easily want to cover their arms and legs on a beach they should be allowed to do that.

Like you I very much dislike the burka. But I do think that this burkini policing is overkill.

intheclouds

Im not sure what to feel about it.

I saw a great post on reddit where it was talking about how the French will not tolerate something that infringes on someone elses freedom - so it looks intolerant that they tell her to take it off, but her freedom to wear a bikini is being restricted by her culture and the French wont accept that in France.

There was also some discussion on the article in the Guardian by the maker of the burkini. She claims that some islamic girls "choose modesty".

Why is showing your arms or legs in swimwear immodest? When i was a teenager I was modest, but I wore shorts and vest tops and swimwear.

There is an underlying slut shaming going on with that womans attitude.

meeeeh

@Sapphire

While the thread of the title mentioned bikinis, burkas were mentioned many times on the thread. You are probably aware that burka is also banned in France ( Belgium and some other countries). I was just clarifying why I agree with banning burka but not with banning burkini.

In fairness bukas are not that common in Europe and often people use the term instead of term hijab (which is any type of covering). I think there is a limit to freedom of religious expression and banning the face covering surely isn't too much.

Uriel.

The one element of the hysterics about this affair is the those stumbling over each other to point out that the woman in the picture is being made to undress by ARMED police.

Like we don't clamber to report being stopped at a traffic stop by police WITH batons, pepper spray and handcuffs... No its just police.. Why because police carry handcuffs etc.. And we all know that.

The police in the photo are police,end of. French police tend to carry guns that's the norm. You'd swear they were point the gun at the woman with itchy trigger fingers.

I also don't understand the vitriol I've seen on social media regarding the police officers in the photo. They are doing their job, no more no less, give out and protest about the law all you want but leave the police alone who are just doing their job, and who are doing it in severely tense times in France given recent events.

Lux23

The banning of the burka would only really make sense if every single woman who was wearing one was forced to. Plenty aren't and for many women Burkinis allowed them to swim in public for the first time ever. If a woman wants to wear a pair of bikini pants and little else at the beach she should be allowed to, it's the exact same with a burkini.

meeeeh

intheclouds wrote: »

Im not sure what to feel about it.

I saw a great post on reddit where it was talking about how the French will not tolerate something that infringes on someone elses freedom - so it looks intolerant that they tell her to take it off, but her freedom to wear a bikini is being restricted by her culture and the French wont accept that in France.

There was also some discussion on the article in the Guardian by the maker of the burkini. She claims that some islamic girls "choose modesty".

Why is showing your arms or legs in swimwear immodest? When i was a teenager I was modest, but I wore shorts and vest tops and swimwear.

There is an underlying slut shaming going on with that womans attitude.

I was just thinking about this, well sort of. I'm still against banning of burkini. Did anyone think what they will do in autumn and winter, allow people wearing hats and scarves around their neck but ban those wearing scarves on their heads?

I think there is certain limit to religious freedom. I have no doubt that most Muslim women in Europe want to wear the type of covering they wear (Iran, Afgainstant and similar don't offer choice). But sometimes we forget that most people are brought up in religion, kids attitudes are influenced by those around them. We have no problem suggesting some kind of help for someone brought up in a wacky fringe sect to help them readjust to normality yet we completely ignore those raised in more extreme beliefs of mainstream religions. I do not feel comfortable with girls, citizens of European countries, being told that their face is sexual and they should cover it, that there is shame in showing their arms and so on. Or to tell boys that girls who show their hair are sluts. I don't think we can impose our values to Afghanistan & Co but sure as hell we can object to children of one gender in our society being treated as second class or dirty or slutty in name of religion.

rainbow kirby

I don't have a problem with the burkini - it's just a tunic, leggings and an extended swim cap really. From what I see of its use here in London (or in the homemade version of a Sports Direct rash guard, running leggings and a standard swim cap) it is women who may not swim at all without one who swim in that sort of clothing. Better to have them out and exercising and having fun than stuck at home in my opinion.

The ban in France was ridiculous and a very heavy handed approach.

rainbow kirby

rainbow kirby wrote: »

The ban in France was ridiculous and a very heavy handed approach.

When a muslim kills over eighty innocent people just a few miles down the coast, I think anybody would be very nervous if a woman in a burka or burkini arrived at the spot beside them at the beach.

It makes no sense to sunbathe in a burka and somebody trying that is either up to no good or deliberately trying to incite an already nervous and traumatised population.

rainbow kirby

Or they are one of the many people in southern France of North African Muslim ancestry and they're just enjoying their summer while dressing according to their religious beliefs. You're not going to be hiding a lot in something like this, you'll have a similar level of coverage to someone wearing a surfing or swimming wetsuit.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

When a muslim kills over eighty innocent people just a few miles down the coast, I think anybody would be very nervous if a woman in a burka or burkini arrived at the spot beside them at the beach.

It makes no sense to sunbathe in a burka and somebody trying that is either up to no good or deliberately trying to incite an already nervous and traumatised population.

Ate you serious?
So because 80 people got killed you would be nervous seeing a woman in a Burkini?
I think maybe you should stay in the house because you are clearly too sensitive for this world.
That's a ridiculous connection to make.

intheclouds

intheclouds wrote: »

Im not sure what to feel about it.

I saw a great post on reddit where it was talking about how the French will not tolerate something that infringes on someone elses freedom - so it looks intolerant that they tell her to take it off, but her freedom to wear a bikini is being restricted by her culture and the French wont accept that in France.

There was also some discussion on the article in the Guardian by the maker of the burkini. She claims that some islamic girls "choose modesty".

Why is showing your arms or legs in swimwear immodest? When i was a teenager I was modest, but I wore shorts and vest tops and swimwear.

There is an underlying slut shaming going on with that womans attitude.

It doesn't matter what your idea of immodest was/is.
I know Muslim women who wear the burka, they don't wear it through any kind of slut shaming.

Uriel.

Uriel. wrote: »

The one element of the hysterics about this affair is the those stumbling over each other to point out that the woman in the picture is being made to undress by ARMED police.

Like we don't clamber to report being stopped at a traffic stop by police WITH batons, pepper spray and handcuffs... No its just police.. Why because police carry handcuffs etc.. And we all know that.

The police in the photo are police,end of. French police tend to carry guns that's the norm. You'd swear they were point the gun at the woman with itchy trigger fingers.

I also don't understand the vitriol I've seen on social media regarding the police officers in the photo. They are doing their job, no more no less, give out and protest about the law all you want but leave the police alone who are just doing their job, and who are doing it in severely tense times in France given recent events.

Police should not be directed to tell people what to wear, or force women to undress.
I would refuse.

meeeeh

bubblypop wrote: »

It doesn't matter what your idea of immodest was/is.
I know Muslim women who wear the burka, they don't wear it through any kind of slut shaming.

I seriously doubt you know any woman who wears burka. In fact I doubt there is one in Ireland.

I think a lot of people in this thread don't actually know what burka is. Similarities between burkini and burka end with the name. Burka is the light blue one in the middle:

Uriel.

bubblypop wrote: »

Police should not be directed to tell people what to wear, or force women to undress.
I would refuse.

The problem is not with the police though. And your refusal would probably lead to your arrest

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

I seriously doubt you know any woman who wears burka. In fact I doubt there is one in Ireland.

I think a lot of people in this thread don't actually know what burka is. Similarities between burkini and burka end with the name. Burka is the light blue one in the middle:

I didn't say the women were in Ireland.
I do know people outside this country!

And tbf, the Burkini is nothing like a Burkini, I doubt the women who normally wear burkas, would ever be seen in a Burkini.

The point is though, that police should not be telling women to take off clothes.
If a woman was sitting on the beach in a wetsuit, would she be told to wear less?

Uriel.

Uriel. wrote: »

The problem is not with the police though. And your refusal would probably lead to your arrest

Sorry, I meant if I was a policeman in France I would refuse!

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

I seriously doubt you know any woman who wears burka. In fact I doubt there is one in Ireland.

I think a lot of people in this thread don't actually know what burka is. Similarities between burkini and burka end with the name. Burka is the light blue one in the middle:

Actually, you're right, they wear the niqab, my bad!

meeeeh

bubblypop wrote: »

I didn't say the women were in Ireland.
I do know people outside this country!

And tbf, the Burkini is nothing like a Burkini, I doubt the women who normally wear burkas, would ever be seen in a Burkini.

The point is though, that police should not be telling women to take off clothes.
If a woman was sitting on the beach in a wetsuit, would she be told to wear less?

Oh that's very interesting. In which country did you meet the women wearing burka anyway and how easy was to strike conversation with them?

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

Oh that's very interesting. In which country did you meet the women wearing burka anyway and how easy was to strike conversation with them?

I just corrected myself.
And it's in Dubai, never had an issue speaking with women, most of them worked with my cousins.

eviltwin

Two friends of mine are Muslim. One wears the Chador and the other a Niqab and they do it by choice. It's easy to see it as oppressive but if people actually took the time to ask the women rather than patronize them with what we think they need it might be surprising to hear their views.

When i was a child, I was in school with some Muslim children.
The girls just looked like the were wearing pyjamas under the uniform, with a little headscarf.
We were jealous Of The head scarves because they were always very pretty.
No one ever treated them any different, and they weren't any different, the girls did all the same things as us. We played chase, hide & seek etc etc.

I just find it so sad now that suddenly what people wear is causing such hassle. It's only clothes.

Uriel.

bubblypop wrote: »

When i was a child, I was in school with some Muslim children.
The girls just looked like the were wearing pyjamas under the uniform, with a little headscarf.
We were jealous Of The head scarves because they were always very pretty.
No one ever treated them any different, and they weren't any different, the girls did all the same things as us. We played chase, hide & seek etc etc.

I just find it so sad now that suddenly what people wear is causing such hassle. It's only clothes.

I'm not by any means saying it's right or anything, but the reason for the hassle, at least in part, is the growing fear of Islam in terms of terrorist attacks and the {unofficial) introduction of some sharia law in wester society

Manutd_4life

I read two pages of this thread and am astonished by the prejudiced ignorance of some people. claiming that husbands are 'forcing' their wives to wear hijabs/burqas/burkinis and how they are beating them and oppressing them

Clearly most of you don't have any Muslim female friends or have studied the meaning and significance behind it.

If media and boards.ie is where you are learning about all this, then you are doing it wrong.

meeeeh

Manutd_4life wrote: »

I read two pages of this thread and am astonished by the prejudiced ignorance of some people. claiming that husbands are 'forcing' their wives to wear hijabs/burqas/burkinis and how they are beating them and oppressing them

Clearly most of you don't have any Muslim female friends or have studied the meaning and significance behind it.

If media and boards.ie is where you are learning about all this, then you are doing it wrong.

Actually I do have a few Muslim female friends. They don't wear any cover at all. Obviously their interpretation of modesty is a bit different.

It's a question of how much religion is too much religion. I have no doubt they wear whatever they are wearing because it's part of their culture but so is genital mutilation in Africa, arranged marriage in India and bunch of Catholic rules we would be better off without. I think Europe is becoming more secular and it's better for it. I have no intention telling people what to do or women not to cover their hair. However I think we should draw the line at two things that we connect with Islam: face covering, especially in schools and schools teaching sharia law.

intheclouds

bubblypop wrote: »

It doesn't matter what your idea of immodest was/is.
I know Muslim women who wear the burka, they don't wear it through any kind of slut shaming.

I didn't say they did. I was speaking specifically about the lady who invented the Burkini and referencing what she said in the Guardian article. I was speaking about HER attitude to young women.

Modesty is a subjective term, but to say a young girl is immodest for showing her arms or legs in swimwear is nonsense. It makes perfectly ordinary parts of the human body shameful. The fact that she only applies the modesty argument to girls is why I called her attitude slut shaming. She sees girls who don't cover up as somehow sexually precocious. I disagree with her.

alchemist33

Uriel. wrote: »

I'm not by any means saying it's right or anything, but the reason for the hassle, at least in part, is the growing fear of Islam in terms of terrorist attacks and the {unofficial) introduction of some sharia law in wester society

Banning burkinis, or even burkas, won't do anything to stop terrorist attacks or sharia law. It'll only make Muslims feel they're being picked on.

(Not saying youre saying it will stop those things btw)

Tasden

meeeeh wrote: »

I seriously doubt you know any woman who wears burka. In fact I doubt there is one in Ireland.

I think a lot of people in this thread don't actually know what burka is. Similarities between burkini and burka end with the name. Burka is the light blue one in the middle:

I work with a woman who wears the burka. (She doesn't work there, shes a service user). It is a dark mesh eye cover sewn to the inside of the face covering part. Whole body covered. She reveals her face when alone in the room with me, the face covering is clasped a certain way that this is easy for her to do, but if window blinds are open then she won't as other people can see her. So there's one at least and I dobut she's the only one.

Uriel.

alchemist33 wrote: »

Banning burkinis, or even burkas, won't do anything to stop terrorist attacks or sharia law. It'll only make Muslims feel they're being picked on.

(Not saying youre saying it will stop those things btw)

Completely agree, but fear (and a spot of good oul discrimination) has a way of clouding judgment

meeeeh

Tasden wrote: »

I work with a woman who wears the burka. (She doesn't work there, shes a service user). It is a dark mesh eye cover sewn to the inside of the face covering part. Whole body covered. She reveals her face when alone in the room with me, the face covering is clasped a certain way that this is easy for her to do, but if window blinds are open then she won't as other people can see her. So there's one at least and I dobut she's the only one.

It is not a very nice way to live. Would anyone here want her daughter too to live like that in Ireland (if she has one)?

Anyway none was just a guess, considering in Belgium who has a lot bigger Muslim population ban affects only a few dozens of women.

Sapphire

meeeeh wrote: »

It is not a very nice way to live. Would anyone here want her daughter too to live like that in Ireland (if she has one)?

Anyway none was just a guess, considering in Belgium who has a lot bigger Muslim population ban affects only a few dozens of women.

I live in an area with a high Muslim community, that's why a mosque was built a stones throw away from my house. My morning commute has several niqab, hijab and dupatta wearers every morning on my bus. They get off at a language school, so presumably learning English. I often wondered that if we had a similar ban to France, they just would not be on my bus, going to that school, mixing with other women, or unrelated men and other more liberal cultures.

From a western point of view, I feel that its an oppressive way to live. But if a woman chooses her religion and lives her life according to the customs and teachings, its not my place to force her to do otherwise. I feel that all religions put women secondary to men and I am uncomfortable with that. Here in Ireland, the dominant religion and its residual effect is still affecting women, our choices (or lack thereof) to some degree.

Coercing a woman out of a burka/hijab is just as bad as coercing her into one. Maybe, let her decide with her own little lady brain to wear whatever the fcuk she wants to wear. `

Some have mentioned that this burkini incident was a direct response to the terrorist attacks and heightened fear in France and a backlash against anyone visibly Muslim. The funny thing is that if a woman was involved with ISIS or practising Islam the way they feel she should be, she'd be nowhere near a beach in a burkini alone.

Imagine if Gardai started targeting Traveller women and demanding they change the way they dress because we think its a form of oppression of their culture and faith. That we don't like 'grabbing' or arranged marriages. Some of these women are often denied the freedom to work, to pursue education, or to go around freely without chaperoning. Most aren't of course, but lets just insist on freeing them, from that oppression we assume they are facing whether they want it or not.

meeeeh

Sapphire wrote: »

Coercing a woman out of a burka/hijab is just as bad as coercing her into one.

I think France (and some other countries) have general ban on burka and nhiqab. Hijab is only banned from schools up to university, where it is allowed. Similarly hijab is banned in civil service etc in some Muslim countries because of separation of state and religion. In Turkey ban was either lifted or relaxed a few years ago under that beacon of democracy - Erdogan.

Anyway the issue is a bit more complex, it involves separation of state and religion and where you set the boundaries. For example we have no problem here curbing down on genital mutilation but is that really that much worse than living your life either behind the shutters or under a veil?

Lisha

dudara wrote: »

Putting the religion out of it, this is a case of a woman being told she MUST undress on a beach. It's a dreadful violation of her rights.

If an elderly lady with a headscarf, or a nun in her wimple was on the beach, would the French police ask her to undress too?

I'm a bit fatter than I should be, so at the beach I might prefer to wear a maxi dress. I burn very easily so if I'm reading at beach I cover my shoulders.

My friend has very severe psoriasis. She prefers to keep arms covered.

I would be mortified if I was instructed to wear less. In fact id probably avoid the beach altogether .

I think the French authorities are on the wrong here.

Tasden

meeeeh wrote: »

It is not a very nice way to live. Would anyone here want her daughter too to live like that in Ireland (if she has one)?

Anyway none was just a guess, considering in Belgium who has a lot bigger Muslim population ban affects only a few dozens of women.

I dunno, I wouldnt want my daughter to wear one as we obviously have a very different cultural background. Having said that, the woman wearing the burka may say "would you want your daughter wearing x y and z?" about what my daughter would wear. I get that they are very different, but it's hard for people on either side to understand the others view when it is such a different culture.
Also from what I know she does have children but it's obviously not my place to ask if they wear it too so i haven't.

I have had discussions with her (not work related just normal conversation) about what it's like for her to wear it, and her main issue was that it's hot which isn't an issue in normal weather but in summer it is very warm and that people don't make eye contact with her so she doesn't get to talk to strangers as easily as others would. She didn't go into her reasons other than it is her choice and it wouldn't have been professional for me to ask further than that.
Choice can mean different things to different people though, choice can be choosing it because she likes it or it could be choosing it because her husband wants it. But if she says it was her choice we have to accept that. Whether that choice is extended to her kids or not I don't know. From my interactions with her she comes across as a happy and confident (surprisingly to me initially) woman and she is active in her community. A very lovely lady but that obviously has nothing to do with her burka :pac:

I have had discussions with my friend about other hijabs and she is very clear that it is the woman's choice, but again, choice can mean very different things. She herself doesn't wear any. She is also a very "dublin" woman despite her cultural background, she slips Irish phrases into conversation, fancies men, jokes about all sorts, yet she doesn't drink and is very strict about prayer etc. She was raised by a very strict Muslim family but they accept her decisions and love who she is. So choice is awarded to her in her situation anyway. That's not saying all Muslim women have full freedom of choice, cause it's insulting to say that when so many women don't, but we can't assume that all don't either.

I know one woman who usually covers her hair and chest. But at work she chooses not to because she finds people don't take her seriously/treat her differently. She is single and living away from family etc. So that would indicate that it is entirely her choice, not influenced by anybody.

Enough ramblings sorry! :pac:

retro:electro

How to make an oppressed woman even more oppressed

Sapphire

Sapphire wrote: »

But if a woman chooses her religion and lives her life according to the customs and teachings, its not my place to force her to do otherwise.

Its not easy, and in cases rather dangerous, for a muslim woman to choose not to be a muslim.

Tasden

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Its not easy, and in cases rather dangerous, for a muslim woman to choose not to be a muslim.

True but there are many cases where the women are perfectly happy practicing Islam and it is their choice to continue. One doesn't negate the other. And if they are happy to be muslim and live their life in such a way then enforcing such a ban is taking away their right to do so, just like the women who want to leave Islam have had their right to leave the religion taken from them in the cases you're referring to.