Education Policy will leave me penniless

FitzyLee

Hi All,

I am happily resigning from my current position in a large organization to take on a new role.

I owe €1700 in education fees for a Diploma I completed last year.

The company provided funding in full for 4 years and in line with the policy I have to remain in the company for as long as funding was provided. As I'm not, I understand that the funding will have to be repaid.

My problem is that the employer wants to take the full amount from my last paycheck. This, along with a VHI subsidy which has to be deducted will leave me with nothing. Actually less than nothing - a negative balance.

The policy states as follows:

"If a course of study is not successfully completed, they must reimburse the Company for any outlays. Any outstanding monies owed will be deducted from salary if they leave the employment of the Company."

I have offered to repay the amount in installments however the above has just been quoted back to me. Can a company do this? I have a very young child and like everyone I have bills to pay. I am willing to sign whatever mandates are necessary for the money to be deducted from my account over time but can they get away with leaving a person practically destitute? Anyone else experience anything similar?

Thanks all

bonyn

Usually companies are very explicit about this policy in your contract. As such it's an authorised deduction. You are not entitled to a loan courtesy of the company.
A bit of personal responsibility comes into it. You took the course. You signed tge contract. You chose to leave.

Some points. 1. Is there Actually a written contract or policy in place that authorises the deduction?
2. Don't worry about the amount exceeding your paycheck. The balance may be written off. Don't let your company bully you into repaying the shortfall according to their schedule.
3. You may be entitled to an unemployment benefit. Don't worry about excludion periods. Just get your p45 and required documents such as proof of identity and address and make the claim asap.
4. You may have overpaid tax. It might not be possible to get the cash repaid straight away but worth pleading your case to the tax office.
5. Do you have any savings? They'll keep you ticking over. If not, get yourself to mabs. you may need to rely on overdrafts, credit cards, pay some bills late, accept help from family. Cancel expensive mobile phone contracts and tv subscriptions.

Good luck

Edit: missed the bit where you said you're moving to a new job. Not much point contacting the tax office or some of the more extreme measures.

Mrs OBumble

The company is not "leaving you pennyless". You signed the contract with them. You did the course. You chose to leave for another job before the payback period was over. And you chose to live without any savings. You made yourself "pennyless".

Responsible adults work towards having enough money to live on for 12 weeks in a fairly accessible savings account - so that if they get sick and cannot work, they have money to tide them over until social welfare assistance becomes available.

Since you are moving to a new job, I suggest you ask a bank or family member for a small loan to tide you over until you start getting paid from the new job. And as soon as you have that paid back, take a good hard look at your own financial management.

FitzyLee

Thanks bonyn

I fully understand that it's my responsibility. Just after a loyal 10 years with the company I (perhaps naively) thought there would be some leeway. The company have an excellent reputation, fantastic CSR etc., even an employee assistance scheme when staff are in financial need. I've brought in my share of business also over the years. It's just proving how the tables turn the second you hand in your notice.

I just spoke to HR who advised that it's payroll, not them, that have the problem with paying over time. Apparently it has tax implications. I pleaded my case so they said they would speak to payroll again.

Here's hoping!

FitzyLee

Thanks bonyn

I fully understand that it's my responsibility. Just after a loyal 10 years with the company I (perhaps naively) thought there would be some leeway. The company have an excellent reputation, fantastic CSR etc., even an employee assistance scheme when staff are in financial need. I've brought in my share of business also over the years. It's just proving how the tables turn the second you hand in your notice.

I just spoke to HR who advised that it's payroll, not them, that have the problem with paying over time. Apparently it has tax implications. I pleaded my case so they said they would speak to payroll again.

Here's hoping!

To add, family loans are unfortunately not an option for me. There's a million reasons why I don't have enough in savings. My own view of a responsible adult is someone who provides all their child/children need. This doesn't always leave enough for a rainy day fund.

RWCNT

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Responsible adults work towards having enough money to live on for 12 weeks in a fairly accessible savings account - so that if they get sick and cannot work, they have money to tide them over until social welfare assistance becomes available.

Since you are moving to a new job, I suggest you ask a bank or family member for a small loan to tide you over until you start getting paid from the new job. And as soon as you have that paid back, take a good hard look at your own financial management.

What a rude and unhelpful post. You have absolutely no idea what the OP's circumstances are. Well done for being a responsible adult and having three months wages stashed up but the ability to save that money is a privilege that many don't have.

faceman

Your company are entitled to do this. It's near impossible for a company to pursue an employee for any outstanding balances once an employee is no longer with the company. And to be fair, it's not unreasonable of them either.

These schemes are commonplace and a great way for employers to financially invest in their employees. Hence why they want employees to stick around afterward.

bonyn

There are tax implications of an interest free loan, but mainly i reckon if they don't deduct it theyre afraid they'll never see the cash again.

Can you write a letter to a senior manager (cc HR), simply stating your record with the company, and that you'd appreciate if they would consider gifting you the exam fee in acknowledgement of your service with the company. Mention that it would alleviate some financial pressures and allow you to transition to a new life post-companyName

It might sound bizarre but it's your best hope. If nothing else it will give someone a laugh

Ultimately, you are taking the training you signed up for and using it to benefit another employer. It would make more sense to ask your new employer to advance you a salary and deduct it from future payslips

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

FitzyLee

Thanks for all the comments.

I've just heard back from HR and they have agreed to let me make repayments over 12 months.

What an absolute relief.

I realize entirely that they didn't have to do this and it's outside of the terms of the policy I signed up to. I am appreciative of their flexibility.

Must now remember to take a "good hard look" at my own financial management and save up 3 months salary in order to become a responsible adult.

"Yes, children, it's beans again tonight...."

bonyn

Wow, that's decent of them. Glad it worked out! And yea, it's so important to have a rainy day fund.

I'd also recommend getting the credit limit on your credit card bumped up so that if you ever have a liquidity problem you can stick essentials on it during the month and once you pay the bill on time the purchases will be interest free. It can be much harder to get credit when you actually need it.

Hollister11

RWCNT wrote: »

What a rude and unhelpful post. You have absolutely no idea what the OP's circumstances are. Well done for being a responsible adult and having three months wages stashed up but the ability to save that money is a privilege that many don't have.

Not rude, not unhelpful. Just realistic.

livedadream

FitzyLee wrote: »

Thanks bonyn

I fully understand that it's my responsibility. Just after a loyal 10 years with the company I (perhaps naively) thought there would be some leeway. The company have an excellent reputation, fantastic CSR etc., even an employee assistance scheme when staff are in financial need. I've brought in my share of business also over the years. It's just proving how the tables turn the second you hand in your notice.

I just spoke to HR who advised that it's payroll, not them, that have the problem with paying over time. Apparently it has tax implications. I pleaded my case so they said they would speak to payroll again.

Here's hoping!

FitzyLee if you are the employee that shouted at my HR admin yesterday because you neglected to give the correct notice and/or read your contact and the addition you signed in regards to outside funding get your ass to my office pronto and we can have a nice chat. ifs not payroll she just wanted to get you out of her office.

if youre not apologies, its just a bit weird i have the same issue with one of my staffers atm whos surname is very similar to your username.

faceman

Great outcome for you OP well done

livedadream

FitzyLee wrote: »

Thanks for all the comments.

I've just heard back from HR and they have agreed to let me make repayments over 12 months.

What an absolute relief.

I realize entirely that they didn't have to do this and it's outside of the terms of the policy I signed up to. I am appreciative of their flexibility.

Must now remember to take a "good hard look" at my own financial management and save up 3 months salary in order to become a responsible adult.

"Yes, children, it's beans again tonight...."

oh okay good to know your not the same person.

savings hard, your company seem sound. best of luck in the new job!

and beans on toast is my favourite dinner! rich or poor.

FitzyLee

livedadream wrote: »

FitzyLee if you are the employee that shouted at my HR admin yesterday because you neglected to give the correct notice and/or read your contact and the addition you signed in regards to outside funding get your ass to my office pronto and we can have a nice chat. ifs not payroll she just wanted to get you out of her office.

if youre not apologies, its just a bit weird i have the same issue with one of my staffers atm whos surname is very similar to your username.

You're mistaken I'm afraid.

bonyn

livedadream wrote: »

FitzyLee if you are the employee that shouted at my HR admin yesterday because you neglected to give the correct notice and/or read your contact and the addition you signed in regards to outside funding get your ass to my office pronto and we can have a nice chat. ifs not payroll she just wanted to get you out of her office.

if youre not apologies, its just a bit weird i have the same issue with one of my staffers atm whos surname is very similar to your username.

The plot thickens.

To be honest this isn't the tone or forum for HR managers to use when addressing employees ... ever! And livedadream you sound like a real mother-hen in that post.

If the op is leaving your company, let her go without this nonsense as the situation seems to have been remedied.

livedadream

FitzyLee wrote: »

You're mistaken I'm afraid.

already spotted and addressed it before. :-)

bonyn wrote: »

The plot thickens.

To be honest this isn't the tone or forum for HR managers to use when addressing employees ... ever! And livedadream you sound like a real mother-hen in that post.

If the op is leaving your company, let her go without this nonsense as the situation seems to have been remedied.

dude chillax, do you really think im that stupid, that id summon someone to my office via boards.ie?

jesus...

FitzyLee

bonyn wrote: »

The plot thickens.

To be honest this isn't the tone or forum for HR managers to use when addressing employees ... ever! And livedadream you sound like a real mother-hen in that post.

If the op is leaving your company, let her go without this nonsense as the situation seems to have been remedied.

Thanks bonyn. Just to clarify, I am definitely not the same person. I don't shout and we don't have offices.

bonyn

livedadream wrote: »

dude chillax, do you really think im that stupid, that id summon someone to my office via boards.ie?

jesus...

Well, i don't know ya. And i don't want to... sounds like you have some weird little fantasies and I'd rather not hear the details.

Mrs OBumble

FitzyLee wrote: »

"Yes, children, it's beans again tonight...."

I'm sure they'd appreciate beans on toast more than having to go into a homeless shelter if you get sick and cannot work.

CruelCoin

FitzyLee wrote: »

I've brought in my share of business also over the years.

I wonder why people mention stuff like this? It's irrelevent. You brought in business? Great, i'm sure you've been paid for it by means of a wage/salary...

tomwaits48

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I'm sure they'd appreciate beans on toast more than having to go into a homeless shelter if you get sick and cannot work.

Time and time again you post the most ridiculous things, it's hilarious.

strandroad

FitzyLee wrote: »

Must now remember to take a "good hard look" at my own financial management and save up 3 months salary in order to become a responsible adult.

"Yes, children, it's beans again tonight...."

Why so flippant... you just dodged a bullet here but another one can actually put your kids at risk if you continue with this attitude?

CruelCoin

FitzyLee wrote: »

Must now remember to take a "good hard look" at my own financial management and save up 3 months salary in order to become a responsible adult.

Mmmm, because living on the edge to totally rad right? Safety net? pffft...

TheDoc

RWCNT wrote: »

What a rude and unhelpful post. You have absolutely no idea what the OP's circumstances are. Well done for being a responsible adult and having three months wages stashed up but the ability to save that money is a privilege that many don't have.

Bumble has a tendancy to do that.

Get the feeling she operates in a world somewhat different to most. 12 weeks savings in an account. Epic lolz

davo10

TheDoc wrote: »

Bumble has a tendancy to do that.

Get the feeling she operates in a world somewhat different to most. 12 weeks savings in an account. Epic lolz

Not 12 weeks savings, but enough to cope for a couple of weeks in the event of unforeseen circumstances like illness or loss of a job. It is important to have an emergency fund when you have kids.

CruelCoin

davo10 wrote: »

It is important to have an emergency fund when you have kids.

Or when a leak takes down half your ceiling
Or when the car calves
Or when laptop explodes
Or when xyz.

Bit silly really to have nothing set to one side for the unforseen.

daheff

livedadream wrote: »

FitzyLee if you are the employee that shouted at my HR admin yesterday because you neglected to give the correct notice and/or read your contact and the addition you signed in regards to outside funding get your ass to my office pronto and we can have a nice chat. ifs not payroll she just wanted to get you out of her office.

if youre not apologies, its just a bit weird i have the same issue with one of my staffers atm whos surname is very similar to your username.

bit of a strange post to make in this thread. -especially if you dont mean it as your subsequent posts say.

TheDoc wrote: »

. 12 weeks savings in an account. Epic lolz

davo10 wrote: »

Not 12 weeks savings, but enough to cope for a couple of weeks in the event of unforeseen circumstances like illness or loss of a job. It is important to have an emergency fund when you have kids.

I'd agree. you need to have some savings behind you incase of emergencies. what if somebody had to go to hospital/ boiler broke/washing machine flooded the kitchen/fridge broke overnight & all frozen food thawed out?

I know its particularly difficult for some people to save given their income and required outgoings...but surely people can save something small each month to have an emergency fund?? I'm conscious that may mean doing without...it might mean no tv subscription, or going to bed a little early each day to save on light/esb costs (little things like that can save a couple of euro off a bill which can then go into savings). Unfortunately that can be the only way for some people to get ahead -making sacrifices.

In the op's case belittling people who have no choice but to eat "beans again" is very bad form. Maybe the op needs to have a long hard look at themselves and ask if a small sacrifice from time to time would be worth having a safety net and not go through this stress the next time they move job (or be reliant on the good will of the company)?

livedadream

daheff wrote: »

bit of a strange post to make in this thread. -especially if you dont mean it as your subsequent posts say.

http://bit.ly/2buhvmE

bit strange to address a post that has already been addressed, for no other reason than getting your post count up as well though right?

fact of the matter is not every family can afford a safety net, how about we try to be less judgemental of the stranger asking for help...

Avatar MIA

Well, this got weird pretty quick.

Congrats OP. Your employer must know you pretty well and are good sports.

Ragnar Lothbrok

I find it strange that so many people on here seem to think it's easy to have savings.

I'm a single parent with a reasonable wage. But mortgage repayments, utility bills, car, food etc, etc, make it impossible to save. I've never missed a mortgage repayment, or any other payment on bills. I have a small Credit Union account with small loan (also, never skipped a payment). People are dreaming if they think I can save the equivalent of 12 weeks wages!

If anything crops up, I go to the Credit Union - one of the beauties of setting up a direct debit for CU repayments is that they are always willing to accommodate my loan requests!

Also, in relation to the OP, I'm delighted that the company were so reasonable in the end

TheDoc

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

I find it strange that so many people on here seem to think it's easy to have savings.

I'm a single parent with a reasonable wage. But mortgage repayments, utility bills, car, food etc, etc, make it impossible to save. I've never missed a mortgage repayment, or any other payment on bills. I have a small Credit Union account with small loan (also, never skipped a payment). People are dreaming if they think I can save the equivalent of 12 weeks wages!

If anything crops up, I go to the Credit Union - one of the beauties of setting up a direct debit for CU repayments is that they are always willing to accommodate my loan requests!

Also, in relation to the OP, I'm delighted that the company were so reasonable in the end

In all fairness I know what people are talking about, I just sometimes roll my eyes at how Mrs.Bumble posts what is typically good advice, but constructs it in a way to make out people are dopes for not doing X advice.

The rainy day fund isn't a new phenomena, of course not. One of the first bits of advice my Da gave me when I started working, tuck a bit away for an emergency.

Point being the reality for most people now, especially my age, is there just isnt the scope to have savings anymore, or scope to tuck away bits month to month.

So while the OP hasn't gone into detail on their situation, I can hazard a guess where they are at.

I've never earned as big a salary as I am now, but I've never been worse off.

Mrs OBumble

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

I find it strange that so many people on here seem to think it's easy to have savings.

I'm a single parent with a reasonable wage. But mortgage repayments, utility bills, car, food etc, etc, make it impossible to save. I've never missed a mortgage repayment, or any other payment on bills. I have a small Credit Union account with small loan (also, never skipped a payment). People are dreaming if they think I can save the equivalent of 12 weeks wages!

If anything crops up, I go to the Credit Union ...

No one said it's easy.

But saving is the responsible thing to do, and it is possible if you set your mind to it.

I have no idea how the credit union would react if you showed up looking to borrow more than you have in shares - and said that you're sick and so cannot work at the moment and have no idea how you're going to pay them back. Fair play to you if your reputation with them is such that they'd lend to you anyway. But I'm sure you can see why I'm sceptical.

Overseas, I used a rule-of-thumb of having six weeks living money. Not six weeks of income - but enough to live on for six weeks. But this is Ireland. Anyone who's ever applied for welfare here knows that it's very slow to get approved, and can easily take 2-3 months. So 12 weeks seems far safer.

I'm assuming that people who react to adult financial management statements with comments like "epic lolz" are kids who can run home to mammy and daddy if things to wrong. Again - grand if you can do this, but most can't.

daheff

livedadream wrote: »

http://bit.ly/2buhvmE

bit strange to address a post that has already been addressed, for no other reason than getting your post count up as well though right?

nothing to do with my post count. Maybe read my post and you will see that I made other comments than just refering to yours.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

No one said it's easy.

But saving is the responsible thing to do, and it is possible if you set your mind to it.

Absolutely. It might not be easy to save your 12 weeks /reasonable amount. All well and good saying you can go to the credit union...but what if they deem you a repayment risk and refuse?

Saving an emergency fund doesnt have to be done overnight...hell it can take you years to get to a reasonable level. It might be that you can only save a couple of euro a week/month. Over time this adds up.

But its the right thing to do for you & your family. You will have less stress worrying about money if you know you have a rainyday fund to help when you need it most, rather than hoping on a dig out from the CU or a bank.

meeeeh

I completely agree having savings is a good idea. Telling people that they should have savings when they are worried about being penniless for a month, is a bit redundant. It certainly doesn't solve the problem.

Anyway OP I am glad your past employer is accommodating.

ted1

Op , check with revenue to see if your course is recognised so that it'll allow you to claim back 20%.

Avatar MIA

ted1 wrote: »

Op , check with revenue to see if your course is recognised so that it'll allow you to claim back 20%.

Only if he paid more than €3k in the year.

ted1

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Only if he paid more than €3k in the year.

That's for full time courses. It's 1.5K for part time.

It's like There's a reward for paying all fees upfront or delaying the first year and paying 2 years together

TheDoc

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

No one said it's easy.

But saving is the responsible thing to do, and it is possible if you set your mind to it.

I have no idea how the credit union would react if you showed up looking to borrow more than you have in shares - and said that you're sick and so cannot work at the moment and have no idea how you're going to pay them back. Fair play to you if your reputation with them is such that they'd lend to you anyway. But I'm sure you can see why I'm sceptical.

Overseas, I used a rule-of-thumb of having six weeks living money. Not six weeks of income - but enough to live on for six weeks. But this is Ireland. Anyone who's ever applied for welfare here knows that it's very slow to get approved, and can easily take 2-3 months. So 12 weeks seems far safer.

I'm assuming that people who react to adult financial management statements with comments like "epic lolz" are kids who can run home to mammy and daddy if things to wrong. Again - grand if you can do this, but most can't.

Again just that total disregard to differing situations.

The issue isn't with your advice, it's that for many people it's a total detachment from the reality.

I'm not going to entertain your little dig there, because again your just show a complete disregard and detachment from scenarios and realities that are not similar to your own.

livedadream

TheDoc wrote: »

Again just that total disregard to differing situations.

The issue isn't with your advice, it's that for many people it's a total detachment from the reality.

I'm not going to entertain your little dig there, whilst it's the exact opposite of my situation, don't feel the need or desire to get involved with what is typically a horrendously condescending tone and generalisation you make of posters.

+1

if it helps i find the ignore button super helpful for buzzy bees in these type situations, the ones you can squash with a rolled up newspaper anyway.

Graham

FitzyLee wrote: »

Hi All,

I am happily resigning from my current position in a large organization to take on a new role.

I owe €1700 in education fees for a Diploma I completed last year.

The company provided funding in full for 4 years and in line with the policy I have to remain in the company for as long as funding was provided. As I'm not, I understand that the funding will have to be repaid.

Have you spoken to your new employer about this? It's not unheard of for a new employer to 'pick up the tab' for outstanding education/training fees such as yours.

davo10

Graham wrote: »

Have you spoken to your new employer about this? It's not unheard of for a new employer to 'pick up the tab' for outstanding education/training fees such as yours.

Hardly shows loyalty and gratitude considering the op is walking out the door, would a new employer appreciate being asked to foot the bill and is there a risk that the new employer would be reluctant to provide for a similar opportunity to further the op's education in the future. Best to keep schtum.

Avatar MIA

davo10 wrote: »

Best to keep schtum.

The OP has given their reason for seeking to move. The reason was acceptable.

It has been known for companies to pay for a new hire's contracted fees, but it would have to have been early on in the process and the qualification would have to be relevant.

Graham

davo10 wrote: »

Hardly shows loyalty and gratitude considering the op is walking out the door, would a new employer appreciate being asked to foot the bill and is there a risk that the new employer would be reluctant to provide for a similar opportunity to further the op's education in the future. Best to keep schtum.

I've never come across a company that has had an issue with it. Maybe it's something that's only common in particular industries or for particular skill-sets.

Avatar MIA wrote: »

it would have to have been early on in the process and the qualification would have to be relevant.

Agreed, it's usually something negotiated quite early on.

Musketeer4

Could you sign up to the standing order or whatever and then when you've left just cancel the SO or close the account and let them go fúck for themselves?

Avatar MIA

Musketeer4 wrote: »

Could you sign up to the standing order or whatever and then when you've left just cancel the SO or close the account and let them go fúck for themselves?

Effectively recommending the OP be a thief.

Mrs OBumble

Musketeer4 wrote: »

Could you sign up to the standing order or whatever and then when you've left just cancel the SO or close the account and let them go fúck for themselves?

Of course they could. And of course that's why the old company wouldn't, by default, want to go down that route. So it's a really clever idea to be promoting it! Not.

lawred2

FitzyLee wrote: »

Hi All,

I am happily resigning from my current position in a large organization to take on a new role.

I owe €1700 in education fees for a Diploma I completed last year.

The company provided funding in full for 4 years and in line with the policy I have to remain in the company for as long as funding was provided. As I'm not, I understand that the funding will have to be repaid.

My problem is that the employer wants to take the full amount from my last paycheck. This, along with a VHI subsidy which has to be deducted will leave me with nothing. Actually less than nothing - a negative balance.

The policy states as follows:

"If a course of study is not successfully completed, they must reimburse the Company for any outlays. Any outstanding monies owed will be deducted from salary if they leave the employment of the Company."

I have offered to repay the amount in installments however the above has just been quoted back to me. Can a company do this? I have a very young child and like everyone I have bills to pay. I am willing to sign whatever mandates are necessary for the money to be deducted from my account over time but can they get away with leaving a person practically destitute? Anyone else experience anything similar?

Thanks all

4 years to remain after completing the course? 12 months was in a previous contract of mine.

Think 4 is a bit much.

But unfortunately you signed the contract. And you must have known what the score was when you started the course.

So moral arguments hold no sway I'm afraid.

lawred2

FitzyLee wrote: »

Thanks for all the comments.

I've just heard back from HR and they have agreed to let me make repayments over 12 months.

What an absolute relief.

I realize entirely that they didn't have to do this and it's outside of the terms of the policy I signed up to. I am appreciative of their flexibility.

Must now remember to take a "good hard look" at my own financial management and save up 3 months salary in order to become a responsible adult.

"Yes, children, it's beans again tonight...."

very good of them...

Musketeer4

Are there any failings on their part that you could bring allegations against them for if they don't write it off?