Handicap at a tough course

rooney30

To what extend to ye guys think handicap is affected by the degree of difficulty of a course. For example is a 15 handicap player at a tough links like the European club or a tough parkland like Adare the same as a 15 handicap player at your average fairly forgiving perhaps shortish parkland course. I know the competition css is supposed to balance this out but I can't help feeling that they are unequal. Could there perhaps be one or two shots in the difference. Your thoughts?

Senna

Isn't that where the SSS comes in, tough course should have a higher SSS, so say par 70 but SSS is 73. Augusta was something like 78+.

There's definitely a difference between links and parkland, but if you play mostly links golf, a short tree-lined parkland can be a tough challenge.
I moved from a long tough links to short easy parkland and my handicap went up in the first year and a half.

Running Balance

This is something which has always confused me as a society golfer.(in the uk rarely play off the same course in a season) I play off 16 but cant help but think if i played the same course every week i d be 10-12. Played tulfarris monday first time and hit 34.. (sorry more of a musing than a point)

Letree

Running Balance wrote: »

This is something which has always confused me as a society golfer.(in the uk rarely play off the same course in a season) I play off 16 but cant help but think if i played the same course every week i d be 10-12. Played tulfarris monday first time and hit 34.. (sorry more of a musing than a point)

I don't think it makes 6 shots worth of difference. I don't go to other courses all that often but when i do i can play to my handicap generally. All i need is my distance watch and its not a big deal.

CalamariFritti

Not sure if that adds anything to the debate, but our course got modernised over a 2 year period about 9, 10 years ago or so. We got new tee boxes, new greens, some not in the same spot, new (more) bunkers and a few layout changes. It was a big job and it made the course a little longer and a bit tougher. Handicaps went up and stayed there. 37 or 38 could win you a competition. But it seems the members either got better or adapted or a bit of both. Now we're back to low forties to win a comp with the odd freak result on either side.

mike12

I think shooting 36 or 37 points is tough regardless of the sss.
If you play on a easy course this will never get u a cut and may even get u a .1,
In my home course 35 points will get u a cut most comps.
Think that leads to lower handicaps and lower scores in comps meaning lower css so it is just a circle keeping scoring and handicaps down.
Not sure if it is easier to shoot 39 points on a easy course or 36 on a hard one for the same cut.

Senna

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Not sure if that adds anything to the debate, but our course got modernised over a 2 year period about 9, 10 years ago or so. We got new tee boxes, new greens, some not in the same spot, new (more) bunkers and a few layout changes. It was a big job and it made the course a little longer and a bit tougher. Handicaps went up and stayed there. 37 or 38 could win you a competition. But it seems the members either got better or adapted or a bit of both. Now we're back to low forties to win a comp with the odd freak result on either side.

They learned the new course and scores started going up again, total normal.
Most society golf can be won with 36-38 points off your normal handicap, because the players don't know the course. Our society will play our home course (club society) next month, I'd expect 38-40 to win that day.

spoke2cun

Very interesting topic. I too often wondered about course toughness and handicaps. For example if you play off 13 on a easy 6000 yard parkland (par 70) And then you play a tough, long 7200 yard links (par 71), You have ONE shot to cover that extra 1200 yards? In a lot of cases 1200 yards could be anything up to 6 shots.

blue note

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Not sure if that adds anything to the debate, but our course got modernised over a 2 year period about 9, 10 years ago or so. We got new tee boxes, new greens, some not in the same spot, new (more) bunkers and a few layout changes. It was a big job and it made the course a little longer and a bit tougher. Handicaps went up and stayed there. 37 or 38 could win you a competition. But it seems the members either got better or adapted or a bit of both. Now we're back to low forties to win a comp with the odd freak result on either side.

The exact same thing happened in my course. Course made more difficult and everyone's handicaps went up and the winning scores went down. Over time the winning scores went up again, but I put this down to people playing off handicaps more than anything. People had a couple of extra shots, so a 38 became a 40. On top of the point 1s a lot of people got an extra shot or two back. Particularly the older golfers who struggled with the added length and not being able to run the ball onto the greens as easily.

CarlowPerth

I live over in Perth, Australia at the moment and handicaps here are based on course toughness with a slope rating applied to your general handicap to give you a daily handicap for the course your playing.

mike12

CarlowPerth wrote: »

I live over in Perth, Australia at the moment and handicaps here are based on course toughness with a slope rating applied to your general handicap to give you a daily handicap for the course your playing.

Same system as America.
Sort of the same here if you are 10 on a course with a sss of 72, you should be able to shoot 3 better on a course the has a sss of 69.
Merits to both systems but not sure about the average of your 10 best of your last 20 rounds being your handicap.
Not sure how many shots you can go up or down but it seems wide open to cheating.
I think the scores don't even have to be in competition.

Putt it there

Im a firm believer of this . In my opinion if you play the same course all the time of course you will lower your handicap , but does it transfer playing wise if you play an open day at another course ? Often not i feel .

Id like to see a rule where all players must play and return cards from at least 5 other clubs open days each year as i feel this would give the people who only play their own club continuously a more accurate handicap .

How often have we heard "im off 12 mate" and then see them score 17 points off a course other than their own ?

Paulzx

Putt it there wrote: »

Id like to see a rule where all players must play and return cards from at least 5 other clubs open days each year as i feel this would give the people who only play their own club continuously a more accurate handicap .

You can't force fee paying members of a club to go off and pay green fees elsewhere in order to maintain a handicap. The whole point of them joining a club is for them to play there.

I find it bizarre that people would consider a golfer who continuosly plays his own club course a problem

Putt it there

Paulzx wrote: »

You can't force fee paying members of a club to go off and pay green fees elsewhere in order to maintain a handicap. The whole point of them joining a club is for them to play there.

I find it bizarre that people would consider a golfer who continuosly plays his own club course a problem

Slow down ould stock ! I never said they were "a problem" i was just giving an opinion . If a lad just wants to play his own course all the time i've no problem with that .

Paulzx

Putt it there wrote: »

. If a lad just wants to play his own course all the time i've no problem with that .

Fair enough. But you've just said the opposite in your previous post

Johnny_Fontane

I play on what could be construed as a tough course (Island) and struggle to move back to parklands for opens and find them 'easy'. CSS is generally around the 35 pts mark with a two point buffer, but have seen it as low as 32 pts when the wind blows.

You adapt to your course I think fairly quickly. My handicap has come slightly down (but early days).

Putt it there

Paulzx wrote: »

Fair enough. But you've just said the opposite in your previous post

Well no i didn't , what i said was in my opinion i think a more accurate value of a handicap would be if you played more than one course . Its not a fact just an opinion .

martinkop

I think the SSS/CSS covers this adequately.
For stableford comp, a tough course will have CSS of less than 36 and an easy course will be over 36. So the handicap will balance out against the field.
Will not balance out against the course if you are just considering against par.

spoke2cun

martinkop wrote: »

I think the SSS/CSS covers this adequately.
For stableford comp, a tough course will have CSS of less than 36 and an easy course will be over 36. So the handicap will balance out against the field.
Will not balance out against the course if you are just considering against par.

Very good point.

CalamariFritti

I guess that s why in the CONGU system we essentially play against the field rather than the course when it comes to handicap adjustments. You could come in with 35 points and still be under CSS and get a cut. It accounts for tough courses and weather and everything whereas in the US system, where they apparently allow for casual rounds to be 'qualifying', they simply couldn't do that as there is no field.
But I think there is also a limitation for each course as to how low or how high a CSS may go. I think on my course its no more than 2 shots either way.

martinkop

Yeah, afaik there is a CONGU rule allowing CSS to only move within a certain range, not sure if it is 2 or 3 shots either direction.

Hoof Hearted2

martinkop wrote: »

Yeah, afaik there is a CONGU rule allowing CSS to only move within a certain range, not sure if it is 2 or 3 shots either direction.

It's 4 shots that CSS can move from SSS any point in between -1 and +3 of SSS

Senna

Hoof Hearted2 wrote: »

It's 4 shots that CSS can move from SSS any point in between -1 and +3 of SSS

So say the SSS is 37, does that mean that no mater how poor the conditions or scoring the css can't be lower than 36?

kieran.

Senna wrote: »

So say the SSS is 37, does that mean that no mater how poor the conditions or scoring the css can't be lower than 36?

The opposite no matter how easy it's playing the CCS can't be higher than 37. Can't be lower than 34..

spoke2cun

I think it's been as high as 38 at our course.

Hoof Hearted2

Senna wrote: »

So say the SSS is 37, does that mean that no mater how poor the conditions or scoring the css can't be lower than 36?

If the SSS is 37pts, the CSS can't go higher than 38pts and lower than 34pts, while there're are 4 shots difference between the highest and lowest CSS can go there is an additional setting of SSS+3 R/O (which means no player out side the buffer zone will have .1 applied), and that completes the 5 different settings of CSS.