Clamping in housing estates

goz83

I tried searching this, but the closest I found was in gated communities, so I'm sorry if it's been covered.

So a family member lives in a housing estate filled with houses and apartments. Seems that quite a lot of these have popped up in recent years, but I am seeing more and more throwing up the clamping signs and text in codes costing 60c for temporary parking, where you have to give your car reg.

Now, I live beside one of these areas where it's permit parking only, but literally a few metres around the corner and for most of the rest of the housing estate, the parking is free. It is different where my family member lives, in that there is no free parking in the area at all, meaning that visitors, or people with more than one car per unit have to pay to park.

How can ncps, or any other clamping company be allowed to clamp cars in visitor, or undesignated spots in what are public areas? I once parked on the road outside the family members property, rather than in one of the parking spots. No yellow lines. No obstruction. No clamp after several hours. It's a pain in the hole texting into the feckers, because it's a different code depending on the estate you are in and the number and code is not always available on the signs.

matt-dublin

Because it's private property and the management companies have elected to enforce clamping?

Usually it's done in high traffic estates because of limited parking and parking overrun by adjacent estates or people using the estate as a park and ride.

Also management companies use it to ensure collection of fees.

Before anyone gives out about management companies, the companies are run by the residents, not some magical company that enforces witchcraft!

goz83

matt-dublin wrote: »

Because it's private property and the management companies have elected to enforce clamping?

Usually it's done in high traffic estates because of limited parking and parking overrun by adjacent estates or people using the estate as a park and ride.

Also management companies use it to ensure collection of fees.

Before anyone gives out about management companies, the companies are run by the residents, not some magical company that enforces witchcraft!

Does the mgmt company own the road if the estate is not gated? And if they don't, what right do they have to clamp?

PS....I haven't been clamped and this is not a rant, or a way to get out of a fee. I'm sitting at home, curious about this after seeing another clamping thread.

One particular estate across from the family member is here. I chose this because of the houses nearby and the VISITOR spot. The yellow lines are not everywhere and there is ample space on the grass (though I wouldn't be so entitled).

athtrasna

A road doesn't have to be gated to be private

Gumbo

goz83 wrote: »

I tried searching this, but the closest I found was in gated communities, so I'm sorry if it's been covered.

So a family member lives in a housing estate filled with houses and apartments. Seems that quite a lot of these have popped up in recent years, but I am seeing more and more throwing up the clamping signs and text in codes costing 60c for temporary parking, where you have to give your car reg.

Now, I live beside one of these areas where it's permit parking only, but literally a few metres around the corner and for most of the rest of the housing estate, the parking is free. It is different where my family member lives, in that there is no free parking in the area at all, meaning that visitors, or people with more than one car per unit have to pay to park.

How can ncps, or any other clamping company be allowed to clamp cars in visitor, or undesignated spots in what are public areas? I once parked on the road outside the family members property, rather than in one of the parking spots. No yellow lines. No obstruction. No clamp after several hours. It's a pain in the hole texting into the feckers, because it's a different code depending on the estate you are in and the number and code is not always available on the signs.

It can be done for many reasons :

Management company forcing non fee paying residents to pay their charges. (No charges paid or no payment plan = no parking permit)
The estate could be in a good commuting area where people drop cars off for the day blocking other residents from parking in their own homes.

I currently live in a new estate in Dublin 11. Open gates but it's private as it has not been taken over by Fingal council yet. Residents usually get at least one permit as part of their management fee

Gumbo

goz83 wrote: »

Does the mgmt company own the road if the estate is not gated? And if they don't, what right do they have to clamp?

PS....I haven't been clamped and this is not a rant, or a way to get out of a fee. I'm sitting at home, curious about this after seeing another clamping thread.

One particular estate across from the family member is here. I chose this because of the houses nearby and the VISITOR spot. The yellow lines are not everywhere and there is ample space on the grass (though I wouldn't be so entitled).

Hampton wood is a new age estate. Elmost of the Estates in the vicinity of that estate have permit parking.

L1011

Housing estates with management companies are a scourge brought upon us by councils that don't want to do their actual job. In those, the management company can bring in clamping if its passed by the members (owners), gated or ungated.

Now, as the Clamping Act remains uncommenced, the legality of clamping on private land at all is still notional and utterly untested in court. But I don't see that situation remaining much longer - it'll be commenced and we'll be told its all great and rosy cause it has a capped fee, of more than is often charged as it stands.

matt-dublin

goz83 wrote: »

matt-dublin wrote: »

Because it's private property and the management companies have elected to enforce clamping?

Usually it's done in high traffic estates because of limited parking and parking overrun by adjacent estates or people using the estate as a park and ride.

Also management companies use it to ensure collection of fees.

Before anyone gives out about management companies, the companies are run by the residents, not some magical company that enforces witchcraft!

Does the mgmt company own the road if the estate is not gated? And if they don't, what right do they have to clamp?

PS....I haven't been clamped and this is not a rant, or a way to get out of a fee. I'm sitting at home, curious about this after seeing another clamping thread.

One particular estate across from the family member is here. I chose this because of the houses nearby and the VISITOR spot. The yellow lines are not everywhere and there is ample space on the grass (though I wouldn't be so entitled).

Yes, you can have publicly accessible private land.

Generally what happens here is the councils force the builders to build the roads and infrastructure with a clause that the management companies must maintain the roads etc for a period of X years after the estate gets handed over to them.

For example, charlesland in Greystones only recently handed over part of the road infrastructure to Wicklow co co even though it's been around for 10-12 years

L1011

matt-dublin wrote: »

Yes, you can have publicly accessible private land.

Generally what happens here is the councils force the builders to build the roads and infrastructure with a clause that the management companies must maintain the roads etc for a period of X years after the estate gets handed over to them.

For example, charlesland in Greystones only recently handed over part of the road infrastructure to Wicklow co co even though it's been around for 10-12 years

That's the norm even without management companies - the builders must maintain until they satisfy the council of completion. That happens on basically every estate. "taking in charge" is the usual council term for it.

A management company transferring land to the council is far rarer although I know of a case of it happening in Kildare. Management company wound up, lands transferred to the council, etc.

Mrs OBumble

goz83 wrote: »

Does the mgmt company own the road if the estate is not gated?

Unless the estate has been taken in charge by the council, then yes they do.

Would you rather they installed parking meters, like the councils do, so that you could only park on their land if you have the correct change?

goz83

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Unless the estate has been taken in charge by the council, then yes they do.

Would you rather they installed parking meters, like the councils do, so that you could only park on their land if you have the correct change?

Yes, that would be much better for me. I have a disabled parking permit that lets me park for free in such spaces

intheclouds

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Unless the estate has been taken in charge by the council, then yes they do.

Would you rather they installed parking meters, like the councils do, so that you could only park on their land if you have the correct change?

I would much prefer this than the scourge of unregulated legally grey extortion.

L1011

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Unless the estate has been taken in charge by the council, then yes they do.

Would you rather they installed parking meters, like the councils do, so that you could only park on their land if you have the correct change?

If it was a choice between private clamping and council enforcement, I'd take the council any day. Proper residents pass system rather than the vague nonsense most management companies have; solid appeals system rather than an industry closed shop one, etc. Oh, and its explicitly legal unlike private clamping.

Mrs OBumble

L1011 wrote: »

If it was a choice between private clamping and council enforcement, I'd take the council any day. Proper residents pass system rather than the vague nonsense most management companies have; solid appeals system rather than an industry closed shop one, etc. Oh, and its explicitly legal unlike private clamping.

But the point is that it's not a choice.

Until the council haven't taken the estate in charge, then they have no right to apply parking restrictions. Only the management company has that right.

You could argue that there should be more legal constraints on how mgmt companies can do this - but the range of real-world situations is very wide, and any detailed government intervention here would likely mess up some situations that are working just fine for the current owners and mgmt companies.

Marcusm

Of course, once the council does take it in charge, it is unlikely that they would regulate parking in any meaningful way.

MugMugs

athtrasna wrote: »

A road doesn't have to be gated to be private

Doesn't the Road Traffic Act state "public place" Could one not assume that an area free of gates and with no restriction of access not be classed as a public place?

athtrasna

MugMugs wrote: »

Doesn't the Road Traffic Act state "public place" Could one not assume that an area free of gates and with no restriction of access not be classed as a public place?

Our cluster has not been taken in charge, we maintain the road. It's a private estate, we have clamping.

MugMugs

athtrasna wrote: »

Our cluster has not been taken in charge, we maintain the road. It's a private estate, we have clamping.

I didn't ask that. You were inferring that even without gates an area can be private.

It can't.

You're still subject to The Road Traffic Act. You can't drink drive in your eatate. You live in a public place.

peteb2

It can. It depends on the signage use and the use of the word prohibited. Been there and to court on it.

Gumbo

MugMugs wrote: »

I didn't ask that. You were inferring that even without gates an area can be private.

It can't.

You're still subject to The Road Traffic Act. You can't drink drive in your eatate. You live in a public place.

Even with gates the RTA applies.
Private estates are classified as by been run by private companies, ie not taken in charge by the LA.

The RTA has nothing tondo with this thread.

MugMugs

kceire wrote: »

Even with gates the RTA applies.
Private estates are classified as by been run by private companies, ie not taken in charge by the LA.

The RTA has nothing tondo with this thread.

It does actually. Under the RTA nobody with the exception of An Garda Síochána or any individual covered under local bye laws has the right to disable anybody else's vehicle.

Michael D Not Higgins

MugMugs wrote: »

It does actually. Under the RTA nobody with the exception of An Garda Síochána or any individual covered under local bye laws has the right to disable anybody else's vehicle.

Private clamping is a legal grey area that hasn't been properly tested in court. There are new laws being drafted to cover it. Until then, claiming it's illegal won't help.

Gumbo

MugMugs wrote: »

It does actually. Under the RTA nobody with the exception of An Garda Síochána or any individual covered under local bye laws has the right to disable anybody else's vehicle.

I won't argue the grey area around private clamping. That's for another thread. The RTA applies on a private, non gated or gated housing estate.

MugMugs

kceire wrote: »

I won't argue the grey area around private clamping. That's for another thread. The RTA applies on a private, non gated or gated housing estate.

The RTA applies to a public place. So a "private" area is therefore a public place.

I have no idea what possess management companies to get involved with clampers, they are dirt. Id rather have any amount of bad parking etc in my estate than be involved with clampers. It's not fair either on people if they are being clamped for parking on footpaths etc. There isn't enough parking spaces in my estate so most people including myself park on footpaths so that two cars can park opposite each other and leave room for a car to drive between them if for some reason this was stopped it would be a disaster with no space for people to park. The estate could have easily been designed to accomadate far more cars rather than having such a big green area most houses have 3 cars nowadays and this should be planned for.

andekwarhola

intheclouds wrote: »

I would much prefer this than the scourge of unregulated legally grey extortion.

Or the scourge of living in a managed development and not paying your legally agreed fees, choosing instead to bum off other mugs for your waste management, landscaping, block insurance and so forth

Dial Hard

Mrs OBumble wrote:

Would you rather they installed parking meters, like the councils do, so that you could only park on their land if you have the correct change?

Parking Tag. It's 2016.

markpb

Clementine Long Wax wrote:

There isn't enough parking spaces in my estate so most people including myself park on footpaths so that two cars can park opposite each other and leave room for a car to drive between them if for some reason this was stopped it would be a disaster with no space for people to park.

You've answered your own question there. Management Companies hire clampers because people park without any consideration for others. Parking on the footpath means that pedestrians can't walk there, children can't be seen about to cross the road and wide vehicles like fire tenders can't get past.

If there's not enough parking, find somewhere else to park or live. Don't make it everyone else's problem. The only reason people think that can park illegally in Ireland and the main reason why clampers are so unpopular is because the Gardai have never bothered to enforce parking laws, creating a society which believes parking illegally is a right.

markpb

markpb wrote: »

You've answered your own question there. Management Companies hire clampers because people park without any consideration for others. Parking on the footpath means that pedestrians can't walk there, children can't be seen about to cross the road and wide vehicles like fire tenders can't get past.

If there's not enough parking, find somewhere else to park or live. Don't make it everyone else's problem. The only reason people think that can park illegally in Ireland and the main reason why clampers are so unpopular is because the Gardai have never bothered to enforce parking laws, creating a society which believes parking illegally is a right.

But people are parking with considerstion for others cars by parking on the path it allows two cars to park opposite each other and not block driveways or block the road (plenty of space for a fire truck also the bin lorry drives through no problem and it's bigger than a fire engine. Plenty of space for people to walk on the road so the footpath being blocked doesn't matter. Kids spend there time playing on the road anyway so I won't listen to any nonsense about them needing the footpath.

In fact you mention consideration for others, basically evey house in the estate parks one of their cars on the footpath at times bar one house and I and others in surrounding houses complain about him regularly as he is reducing the parking space for surrounding houses by refusing to park on it. So it's him that's being inconsiderate.

Thankfully the estate has long sense being taken in charge by the council and it's not in the city centre so there will never be any parking regulations.

Marcusm

Pablo Hundreds Volt wrote: »

But people are parking with considerstion for others cars by parking on the path it allows two cars to park opposite each other and not block driveways or block the road (plenty of space for a fire truck also the bin lorry drives through no problem and it's bigger than a fire engine.
T.

That's an absolutely absurd argument; why don't I park in your driveway or your front garden to have consideration for other car users? A footpath is not designed nor intended for the parking of cars. It might be considerate for their drivers but demonstrates no consideration for those for whom the path is designed and intended. The mere fact that you have stated that the people could walk on the road means you have no consideration for wheelchair users or walkers of limited mobility.

markpb

Clementine Long Wax wrote:

Thankfully the estate has long sense being taken in charge by the council and it's not in the city centre so there will never be any parking regulations.

There are parking regulations, they're written into national law. There's nothing stopping the Gardai or council traffic wardens from wandering into your estate and enforcing the law today. Parking on the footpath is illegal. Parking on bends is illegal. Obstructing the road from any road user, not just other drivers, is illegal. Just because they historically haven't been enforced doesn't mean it will never happen.

matt-dublin

MugMugs wrote: »

The RTA applies to a public place. So a "private" area is therefore a public place.

It's only public ally accessible private land so the RTA doesn't apply in terms of clamping unless the council have taken ownership of the land. Technically it's a large private car park. Gards can't enforce parking restrictions, only an authorised private entity can.

In Greystones the link road used to be private and the guards had to wipe a load of speeding offences because they weren't authorised to be on the private land.

Few people had dangerous driving offences quashed as well.

markpb

markpb wrote: »

There are parking regulations, they're written into national law. There's nothing stopping the Gardai or council traffic wardens from wandering into your estate and enforcing the law today. Parking on the footpath is illegal. Parking on bends is illegal. Obstructing the road from any road user, not just other drivers, is illegal. Just because they historically haven't been enforced doesn't mean it will never happen.

Absolutely no chance of that happening, wardens wouldn't come within 5 miles of the estate as it too far outside town and the guards have better thing for doing the interfering in how everyone in an estate parks without complaint.

MugMugs

matt-dublin wrote: »

It's only public ally accessible private land so the RTA doesn't apply in terms of clamping unless the council have taken ownership of the land. Technically it's a large private car park. Gards can't enforce parking restrictions, only an authorised private entity can.

In Greystones the link road used to be private and the guards had to wipe a load of speeding offences because they weren't authorised to be on the private land.

Few people had dangerous driving offences quashed as well.

Which runs contrary to

kceire wrote: »

The RTA applies on a private, non gated or gated housing estate.

Which my quoted post was replying to.

Also, the RTA defines a Public Place as

RTA wrote:

(iv) by the substitution for the definition of “public place” of the following definition:

“‘public place’ means—

(a) any public road, and

(b) any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;”;

Long and short of it is that clamping is a wildly grey area under current law (with the exception of local councils)

There have been threads in Motors whereby people have cut clamps in the past and sent them back to NCPS in terms of storage invoices for their clamps taking up room in that persons boot (check it out here)

They've also quoted

RTA Section 113 wrote:

section 113 1961 RTA
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/...nt.html#sec113

RTA 1961
Unauthorised interference with mechanism of vehicle.
113.—(1) A person shall not, without lawful authority or reasonable cause, interfere or attempt to interfere with the mechanism of a mechanically propelled vehicle while it is stationary in a public place, or get on or into or attempt to get on or into the vehicle while it is so stationary.

I am not condoning criminal damage by any stretch but I am saying that as it stands, it appears acceptable for management companies to employ individuals to breach the above RTA. I wouldn't accept anybody disabling my vehicle unless i specifically ask them to do so.

Marcusm

Pablo Hundreds Volt wrote: »

Absolutely no chance of that happening, wardens wouldn't come within 5 miles of the estate as it too far outside town and the guards have better thing for doing the interfering in how everyone in an estate parks without complaint.

Ah ha, now I understand your position; it's perfectly acceptable for you to break the law and discommode others because you don't believe you will be caught.

On other threads, moderators would generally chastise those who advocate unlawful activities.

A lot of it is to do with initially buying the house, if the house only come with one parking space and the person is fully aware of this when buying the house they cant complain afterwards or even worse say 'it will be grand and think they will find a way around it'. There are planning guideline re parking.

andekwarhola

We had clamping on our estate for years and I never got clamped. Presumably it had something to do with paying my management fees, remembering to text in guests and not parking incorrectly.

intheclouds

andekwarhola wrote: »

We had clamping on our estate for years and I never got clamped. Presumably it had something to do with paying my management fees, remembering to text in guests and not parkingincorrectly.

We have it on ours and a number of residents have been clamped incorrectly. These are people who are paying their fees, remembering to text in guests and not parking incorrectly.

Of course the clamping company still want to be paid when this happens, and insist that the internal appeals process is followed.

My understanding is that people do not even bother to follow up with the clamping company anymore as they are a nightmare to deal with and in such a situation are deducting it from their management fees and telling the managing agent to recoup from the clampers.

It seems to be having the desired effect as I havent seen a clamper near the place in months.

andekwarhola

Must say I've never experienced any of these magical estates where so many otherwise diligently parked and fully paid up residents fall foul of mysterious clamping for no reason. Maybe I've just been lucky.

intheclouds

andekwarhola wrote: »

Must say I've never experienced any of these magical estates where so many otherwise diligently parked and fully paid up residents fall foul of mysterious clamping for no reason. Maybe I've just been lucky.

meh - clampers are humans, mistakes happen. Not really anything magical about it - youd be a bit naive if you believed that to be the case.

The_Conductor

MugMugs wrote: »

Doesn't the Road Traffic Act state "public place" Could one not assume that an area free of gates and with no restriction of access not be classed as a public place?

Nope. We've been to court with the Office of Public Works- who inferred this on a road we built and maintain (its an open access road through a bog (that we own) that they would like to use- but not pay towards maintaining). They lost. Its not a residential road- no- but the same principle applies.