Progressing in the Civil Service

Juggler101

How easy/quickly do people progress in the CS?

I'm working at the equivalent of clerical officer for >10 years, but in a dead end public service org. I'm very motivated to progress and learn and take on new challenges.

Do motivated people tend to go up the ranks in the CS?! I've got to stage 2 in the CO competition, but if I actually got the job is would be a 10k salary drop, so there would want to be promotion opportunities on the horizon!!

I'd appreciate advice from anyone who has worked in the CS

Riskymove

I think you would be better off in the main CS than in a particular agency if you are looking for development and advancement - however I appreciate that a 10k drop is significant

There are always some opportunities but frankly it all depends on the climate at the time and it has tended to go in circles

When I joined CS it was during an embargo period when only 1 in every 3 vacancies would be filled.

Then we had the boom and lots of expansion and a lot more recruitment and opportunities. Then the crash and very little if any opps for 4 or 5 years

Things are now loosening up again but a lot of the opportunities are open competitions so more competition. I know a couple of COs who have moved directly up to HEO now that anyone can apply for any position

notharrypotter

Juggler101 wrote: »

How easy/quickly do people progress in the CS?

I'm working at the equivalent of clerical officer for >10 years, but in a dead end public service org. I'm very motivated to progress and learn and take on new challenges.

Do motivated people tend to go up the ranks in the CS?! I've got to stage 2 in the CO competition, but if I actually got the job is would be a 10k salary drop, so there would want to be promotion opportunities on the horizon!!

I'd appreciate advice from anyone who has worked in the CS

Not sure but always understood that when offered promotion you would not lose money.
So if you were to accept the CO position you would move to the equivalent of your current salary.
I worked there 30 years ago so it may be different today.

However you state you work is public service organization.
So it may depend on what the linkage is.
You state you are the equivalent of a CO but yet you applied for a CO position.

Would you be classed as an external candidate or an internal one?

2RockMountain

Check the PAS information booklet for your competition. There is usually a note saying that existing civil / public servants may not have to start at the bottom of the scale.

Juggler101

I called Chapter House and I think it's down to the receiving department if they're willing to bump you up a few points. I'm guessing though that they have so many CO's on a panel that they will give the first point on the scale!

2RockMountain wrote: »

Check the PAS information booklet for your competition. There is usually a note saying that existing civil / public servants may not have to start at the bottom of the scale.

Juggler101

I'm an external candidate as my organisation is public not civil service. I'm thinking of doing a sideways move to clerical officer in civil service in the hopes that promotion opportunities are more forthcoming there! I could always stay where I am and wait for an open executive officer competition of course.

notharrypotter wrote: »

Not sure but always understood that when offered promotion you would not lose money.
So if you were to accept the CO position you would move to the equivalent of your current salary.
I worked there 30 years ago so it may be different today.

However you state you work is public service organization.
So it may depend on what the linkage is.
You state you are the equivalent of a CO but yet you applied for a CO position.

Would you be classed as an external candidate or an internal one?

2RockMountain

€10k is a big drop, so you'd want to have a good feel that your prospects would be significantly better. Are there that many internal restricted competitions that your CS role would open up for you?

Juggler101

I really don't know, I suppose I'm going for CO in case it's better to have civil service experience for promotion purposes.

2RockMountain wrote: »

€10k is a big drop, so you'd want to have a good feel that your prospects would be significantly better. Are there that many internal restricted competitions that your CS role would open up for you?

Woopsey

OP have a look at this

http:// hr.per.gov.ie/wp-content/ uploads/2015/12/Starting-Pay-on- Recruitment-through-Open -Competition- to-the-Civil-Service. pdf

(Remove spaces)

You may be able to continue from your current point on the scale.

Creol1

Things are changing in the Civil Service as regards the promotional opportunities for Clerical Officers, because the position of Staff Officer (which could only be filled by a CO, with no external competition) is going to be abolished. The union is looking for half of Executive Officer (the next grade up) positions to be earmarked to be filled by COs in compensation, or something like that.

Leitrim_man

Side question....
Is there any update on the new CO positions as there doesn't seem to be a lot of info out there?
How many positions are being filled?
When will they be filling them?
Thanks in advance.

Its been a good two years for motivated, educated co/eos in the service and id reckon theres another two years of the same in it yet. my place has seen people go from co to heo, and many more go co-eo-heo within a year.

Getting stuck in a small org is the killer. I think if you can manage the loss of earning in the short term its worth considering.

Juggler101

Leitrim_man wrote: »

Side question....
Is there any update on the new CO positions as there doesn't seem to be a lot of info out there?
How many positions are being filled?
When will they be filling them?
Thanks in advance.

Sorry Leitrim man, but I have no more info than you on the CO competition!

Juggler101

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Its been a good two years for motivated, educated co/eos in the service and id reckon theres another two years of the same in it yet. my place has seen people go from co to heo, and many more go co-eo-heo within a year.

Getting stuck in a small org is the killer. I think if you can manage the loss of earning in the short term its worth considering.

Thanks snoop sheep, that's the hope :-)

Heart Break Kid

2RockMountain wrote: »

€10k is a big drop, so you'd want to have a good feel that your prospects would be significantly better. Are there that many internal restricted competitions that your CS role would open up for you?

It will also take 10 years to get that 10k back as a CO

Juggler101

Heart Break Kid wrote: »

It will also take 10 years to get that 10k back as a CO

Yes, I'd be setting myself back 10 years increments-wise, but hopefully placing myself in a workplace with actual opportunities for advancement. I'm currently working at almost top of CO scale, which is equivalent to starting EO scale.

fly_agaric

Juggler101 wrote: »

How easy/quickly do people progress in the CS?

If you are good at the type of tests public sector use, good at the competency interview format (excel at articulately "blowing your own horn" in front of a panel of interviewers - not easy) and also have right sort of qualifications/experience to fit department you are in you can advance really quickly now they are promoting again.

However IMO If any of these is missing (e.g you cannot pass the tests) you are screwed, and have no hope of ever being promoted.
So I suppose it depends; probably like any other workplace!

Creol1

Further to Woopsey's comment above, I'm pretty sure that you would be able to retain your point on the payscale if you moved into the Civil Service.

Juggler101

fly_agaric wrote: »

If you are good at the type of tests public sector use, good at the competency interview format (excel at articulately "blowing your own horn" in front of a panel of interviewers - not easy) and also have right sort of qualifications/experience to fit department you are in you can advance really quickly now they are promoting again.

However IMO If any of these is missing (e.g you cannot pass the tests) you are screwed, and have no hope of ever being promoted.
So I suppose it depends; probably like any other workplace!

Yep, thanks for the reality check! I have several post graduate degrees, but probably none of much use to Revenue for example! I really don't know much about the civil service, so the more information I get here, the better.

fly_agaric

Juggler101 wrote: »

Yep, thanks for the reality check! I have several post graduate degrees, but probably none of much use to Revenue for example! I really don't know much about the civil service, so the more information I get here, the better.

Did not mean that to sound quite so negative. The first two things (being able to pass tests and being very good at interviews) are necessary. If job is in a particular department your qualifications and experience should also fit to the area but if its some sort of interdepartmental/general competition the specifics of that might not be as important.

doc11

Does the department you land in determine how fast you can be promoted? I'd imagine departments such as finance,DPER would be top heavy then say social welfare or revenue and easier to be promoted as they'd be less foot-soldiers for internal promotions.

RiseToMe

I've posted on this forum on this topic before but my wife joined the CS 12 years ago at entry level and is now a Principal Officer.

She is extremely motivated, worked very hard, applied for all promotion opportunity and moved department as necessary to make it up the ranks. She also continued studying for the duration of her career until recently.

It's very possible to make great progress there if you have the ambition and drive.

Bob Cratchit

I'm just going to add my 2cents to this, even though the original poster has probably made up their mind by now.

Be aware, as mentioned before, that it will take you 10 years to make up the salary shortfall if you start as a new entrant CO on the first point of the scale.
If you are not good at aptitude tests as set by PAS, forget it. If you are good at them, but not amazing at them, think long and hard about making this jump.
I joined a year and a half ago and, (arrogantly enough), figured I would rise like cream to the top. But, you cannot apply for any of the internal or inter dept. competitions until you have 2 years of CO poverty under your belt. There have been several competitions here so far that I could only watch from the sidelines. Thousands of people apply for the open competitions. The sobering reality is, you could sit on your ass and do absolutely nothing in here and your chances of advancement are no worse than the guy beside you who is begging for more work to do and making connections and generally being useful. In fact, if you are busy, you are probably at a disadvantage because the cabbage who never gets asked to do anything is probably sitting there practicing numerical aptitude tests.
Sorry to be negative, but I am not feeling good about it this week as I just missed out by small numbers on the last few open competitions.
This is not a meritocracy unfortunately.
Also, despite the media hype, the pension entitlements for anyone who joined after 2013 are not good and impossible to calculate.
On the plus side, people are friendly and polite. If you are good at tests and have a degree in something that is not in demand, then go for it.

Creol1

Bob Cratchit wrote: »

On the plus side, people are friendly and polite.

Depends on the workplace.

I've been the frustrated CO banging my head off PAS competitions, so sympathies on that.

Focusing on what's wrong with the process is not a good approach.

Focusing on how much better you are than the lazy dossers around you is even worse.

Focusing on tailoring your next application to the next competition is a good approach.

Focusing on any feedback or information you can get from your last failed application is a good approach.

Asking someone who's been successful where they felt they excelled and privately and honestly benchmarking your own weak points against this is a good (but bloody difficult) approach.

Not trying to nag, I developed a chip on my shoulder as a CO with several years worth of unsuccessful competitions behind me. But it only turned around when I started to engage with the competition in front of me on their terms, not mine, and focused on what I could do to do well in it, not on anyone else. The reward was a few jobs that turned out more challenging and higher up than I expected, tbh, but hey the money's good 😎

The OP never seemed to consider applying for EO, AO, HEO roles in open competitions, reading back on the thread. That would appear to have been the best route in their position. Hope they found a solution to their quandary regardless. Lots of opportunities out there this past while, if you can navigate the various obstacles that constitute the various recruitment processes.

Bob Cratchit

Hi snoopsheep.
I'm glad it worked out for you. It gives me hope.
I appreciate your career advice there, and in a few weeks when it gets busy and I don't have time to wonder about the point of it all, I'm sure I'll feel a lot more positive.
As to focusing on the down side? It does exist. 21k to 23k is a badly paid job. It is not necessarily a stepping stone to greater things for the army of new CO entrants.
PAS are not giving with the feedback in my experience.
I will apply for everything going, although there are no more open competitions on the horizon this year, but whether I climb the ladder or not, I don't approve of the process. It takes too long and it's too restrictive.
A lot of good people are considering their options. So must I.

I hear ya. I think my post probably was a bit too high handed (I didn't start off that way I promise). The advice is genuinely what worked for me but I'd totally acknowledge that:

I prob wouldn't be in the humour to read it for a few weeks after a failed attempt

and

Yeah lower rung of CO scale is a grim existence and it's hard to be patient waiting for that first step

psnKOB79LFC

Bob Cratchit wrote: »

I'm just going to add my 2cents to this, even though the original poster has probably made up their mind by now.

Be aware, as mentioned before, that it will take you 10 years to make up the salary shortfall if you start as a new entrant CO on the first point of the scale.
If you are not good at aptitude tests as set by PAS, forget it. If you are good at them, but not amazing at them, think long and hard about making this jump.
I joined a year and a half ago and, (arrogantly enough), figured I would rise like cream to the top. But, you cannot apply for any of the internal or inter dept. competitions until you have 2 years of CO poverty under your belt. There have been several competitions here so far that I could only watch from the sidelines. Thousands of people apply for the open competitions. The sobering reality is, you could sit on your ass and do absolutely nothing in here and your chances of advancement are no worse than the guy beside you who is begging for more work to do and making connections and generally being useful. In fact, if you are busy, you are probably at a disadvantage because the cabbage who never gets asked to do anything is probably sitting there practicing numerical aptitude tests.
Sorry to be negative, but I am not feeling good about it this week as I just missed out by small numbers on the last few open competitions.
This is not a meritocracy unfortunately.
Also, despite the media hype, the pension entitlements for anyone who joined after 2013 are not good and impossible to calculate.
On the plus side, people are friendly and polite. If you are good at tests and have a degree in something that is not in demand, then go for it.

All fair points.

psnKOB79LFC

RiseToMe wrote: »

I've posted on this forum on this topic before but my wife joined the CS 12 years ago at entry level and is now a Principal Officer.

She is extremely motivated, worked very hard, applied for all promotion opportunity and moved department as necessary to make it up the ranks. She also continued studying for the duration of her career until recently.

It's very possible to make great progress there if you have the ambition and drive.

Dublin based? Much easier in Dublin

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

I joined as a CO almost exactly 10 years ago, just as the economy was about to go bang. I did 3 years as a CO, 2 as an SO, and almost 5 as an EO, I've just been promoted to HEO. In that time I've worked in 3 different departments in 4 different counties.

I've found that if you go for all the competitions and you're willing to be flexible, you can progress relatively quickly. Obviously, this is subject to your own situation, I was in my 20s with no ties.

doc11

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: »

I joined as a CO almost exactly 10 years ago, just as the economy was about to go bang. I did 3 years as a CO, 2 as an SO, and almost 5 as an EO, I've just been promoted to HEO. In that time I've worked in 3 different departments in 4 different counties.

I've found that if you go for all the competitions and you're willing to be flexible, you can progress relatively quickly. Obviously, this is subject to your own situation, I was in my 20s with no ties.

The class of people who joined the civil service 10/15 years ago are a different league to those joining today. Most had just the leaving cert compared to 2014 were everyone joining is very qualified so promotions are very competitive with open competitions the norm.

If you had a degree 10 years ago you started on near 27k as a CO and only paid 1.5% into a final salary DB pension. in 2014 a CO started on 20k and will pay 8% into a career average pension and face a very competitive promotion process.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

doc11 wrote: »

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: »

I joined as a CO almost exactly 10 years ago, just as the economy was about to go bang. I did 3 years as a CO, 2 as an SO, and almost 5 as an EO, I've just been promoted to HEO. In that time I've worked in 3 different departments in 4 different counties.

I've found that if you go for all the competitions and you're willing to be flexible, you can progress relatively quickly. Obviously, this is subject to your own situation, I was in my 20s with no ties.

The class of people who joined the civil service 10/15 years ago are a different league to those joining today. Most had just the leaving cert compared to 2014 were everyone joining is very qualified so promotions are very competitive with open competitions the norm.

If you had a degree 10 years ago you started on near 27k as a CO and only paid 1.5% into a final salary DB pension. in 2014 a CO started on 20k and will pay 8% into a career average pension and face a very competitive promotion process.

Regardless of whether you had a degree or not, when I started as a CO in 2007, you came in on around 22k. Also, the 1.5% pension went out the window in 2004. I pay the same 8% as the person who started in 2014.

As for competitive processes, around 3,000 people applied for the last 2 competitions I came out of. Not as high as the open ones, but competitive nonetheless.

doc11

doc11 wrote: »

The class of people who joined the civil service 10/15 years ago are a different league to those joining today. Most had just the leaving cert compared to 2014 were everyone joining is very qualified so promotions are very competitive with open competitions the norm.

If you had a degree 10 years ago you started on near 27k as a CO and only paid 1.5% into a final salary DB pension. in 2014 a CO started on 20k and will pay 8% into a career average pension and face a very competitive promotion process.

Very little of this seems correct to me. Joined ten years ago this month with a degree and I don't recognise your terms and conditions.

doc11

Deleted User wrote: »

Very little of this seems correct to me. Joined ten years ago this month with a degree and I don't recognise your terms and conditions.

Here's the payscale . I was almost sure those with a degree started at point 2/3 on scale? pension wise new recruits pay more and receive far less benefit.

fg1406

I joined the Public sector 13 years ago and due to the embargo I have been stuck in the same job for 7 years. I've attended a few interviews and either got placed on the lower half of the panel or was unsuccessful entirely. There is very limited scope for progression in the public service as vacancies only arises when someone retires or dies.
To the OP, you'll get incremental credit even as an external candidate for any public sector experience you have.

beauf

It depends where you are. Some places didn't have an embargo. Some place did. A lot of places had deals to get people to retire early around the time of the embargo. As a result there will be less than usual retiring. IMO.

If you want to move you have to move to somewhere else in the PS. Unfortunately this may mean you start bottom of the pecking order, in the new place. As they won't be too happy with new people taking promotions they've waited years for.

uck51js9zml2yt

I was talking to our HR PO yesterday. He was saying 30%of staff in the CS are due to retire in the next 4 years.

Bob Cratchit

Dwayne Chilly Rodent wrote: »

I was talking to our HR PO yesterday. He was saying 30%of staff in the CS are due to retire in the next 4 years.

I heard that too.

beauf

Where I am its also top loaded probably even more than that.

Arcade_Tryer

Dwayne Chilly Rodent wrote: »

I was talking to our HR PO yesterday. He was saying 30%of staff in the CS are due to retire in the next 4 years.

With the increasing population and extra demand for services each year, it will be interesting to see what the ratio of new entrants to retired employees ends up being. FG must be rubbing its hands together with glee.

uck51js9zml2yt

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

With the increasing population and extra demand for services each year, it will be interesting to see what the ratio of new entrants to retired employees ends up being. FG must be rubbing its hands together with glee.

The longest serving in one of our units is there 12 months!
They are trying to hire in now to ensure a transfer of knowledge before everyone leaves.
They learnt from the downturn when huge numbers went and took the corporate knowledge with them!

ParkRunner

From my experience progressing in the civil service has very little to do with what you do day to day and almost entirely to do with your ability to present yourself for 1 hour as a person who possesses certain desireable attributes.

Hard work is not recognised, underperformers are not pulled up. If you can talk a good talk, you'll go places

RiseToMe

psnKOB79LFC wrote: »

Dublin based? Much easier in Dublin

Dublin for part of it, outside Dublin for others, just moved as she needed to for promotion and took the commute. Paid off.

doc11

doc11 wrote: »

Here's the payscale . I was almost sure those with a degree started at point 2/3 on scale? pension wise new recruits pay more and receive far less benefit.

I'm unsure that you're correct in either assertion.

Single pension scheme contributions are the same as post 2004 as far as I'm aware. The difference is in having benefits calculated on career average, as opposed to composite of final three years.

fg1406

fg1406 wrote: »

I joined the Public sector 13 years ago and due to the embargo I have been stuck in the same job for 7 years. I've attended a few interviews and either got placed on the lower half of the panel or was unsuccessful entirely. There is very limited scope for progression in the public service as vacancies only arises when someone retires or dies.
To the OP, you'll get incremental credit even as an external candidate for any public sector experience you have.

Differentiating between public and civil service, maybe?

And geographically obviously.

Civil service has a huge amount of recruitment and opportunity going on, open, interdepartmental and confined. Much of it in the past 4 years.

I've not seen a hard and fast rule on open comp candidates starting on anything above scale 1

notharrypotter

ParkRunner wrote: »

From my experience progressing in the civil service has very little to do with what you do day to day and almost entirely to do with your ability to present yourself for 1 hour as a person who possesses certain desireable attributes.

Hard work is not recognised, underperformers are not pulled up. If you can talk a good talk, you'll go places

That's the same in most jobs.

billyhead

notharrypotter wrote: »

That's the same in most jobs.

I don't think I can agree with this. If your not pulling your weight in a job in the CS and not working as efficiently or effectively as a colleague the manager will be reluctant to give you extra work, projects to do of which work samples and experience could be used for the competencies section of the promotional interview. Interviewers hate wafflers and can see through this thus people working in the CS who's output is less then a colleague wont get away with just being a good talker on its own when it gets to an interview stage. Personally I am in a dilemma where a position has came up in the cs which would take a twice then longer commute in time and distance but would involve working on a specialized project which would look good on the cv and also when it would hopefully come to an interview could be a topic of discussion. The commute would also involve the expense of public transport however in the current role I commute by a bike. Decisions Decisions

The_Conductor

doc11 wrote: »

Here's the payscale . I was almost sure those with a degree started at point 2/3 on scale? pension wise new recruits pay more and receive far less benefit.

Its not like teaching- there is no salary bump for having a degree- EO is the exact same.

With respect of pensions- everyone pays their 8%- people up to 2002 could retire at 60 on an actuarially reduced pension- post 2002 do not have that benefit- and post 2014 are on career average earning pensions, versus pre2014- who are on a final salary pension benefit.

There have been 6 big revisions to the pension schemes since 1995- its not really accurate or appropriate to bunch people into a pre and a post 2014 grouping- there are far more differences in some of the changes- than in others.

doc11

The_Conductor wrote: »

Its not like teaching- there is no salary bump for having a degree- EO is the exact same.

With respect of pensions- everyone pays their 8%- people up to 2002 could retire at 60 on an actuarially reduced pension- post 2002 do not have that benefit- and post 2014 are on career average earning pensions, versus pre2014- who are on a final salary pension benefit.

There have been 6 big revisions to the pension schemes since 1995- its not really accurate or appropriate to bunch people into a pre and a post 2014 grouping- there are far more differences in some of the changes- than in others.

At EO I know there's no bump as it's a promotion grade and you'd get a bump anyway and it was seen as a graduate route on open entry. CO in some institutions got the bump at CO level.

Post 2013 career average makes a massive difference pension wise it can't be understated. But in saying that it'll all be academic in the future cause there is no way in 40 years the state will be able to afford the pension bills of both public and state.

Arcade_Tryer

doc11 wrote: »

Post 2013 career average makes a massive difference pension wise it can't be understated. But in saying that it'll all be academic in the future cause there is no way in 40 years the state will be able to afford the pension bills of both public and state.

A conservative estimate. The civil service should really consider removing the compulsory pension contributions system for new entrants.

The_Conductor

Keep in mind though- at CO level (and indeed EO level) the vast bulk of any pension you have- is in fact your contributory old age pension.
Civil service pensions are reduced by the rate of the prevailing old age pension- using the COPC formula.

So- a CO with a career average salary of 30k after 40 years service (plausible)- would be entitled to a pension of 15k

The old age pension @ 232 per week = 12,084 per annum

15k- less 12,084 = 2916 = 56 Euro a week.......

So- a CO with a career average salary of 30k, with a full 40 years service, has an entitlement to a weekly civil service pension of 56 Euro a week.

There is an expectation that you are going to claim the contributory old age pension- however, there is no mention of what happens if you're not entitled to it (for whatever reason).

At the moment- pre-existing post 1995 staff who are retiring with 40 years service at age 65- are being told by their personnel sections that they have to apply for unemployment assistance- until such time as the contributory old age pension vests..........

The pensions thing is a nightmare for staff- though few enough people have really sat down and teased out what precisely is happening........

There is no automatic right to a civil service pension top-up for post 1995 employees- if they retire before the vesting date of the contributory old age pension- regardless of whether they're over the 40 years service or not..........

Actually I'm surprised that so few in the service seem to know just how the pension schemes were changed (and that's ignoring the 2002 and subsequent changes).