RAF defending Irish airspace (Mod Note/Warning post 113

dslamjack

An article in this morning's Irish Examiner speak's of how if a terrorist aircraft hijacking or threat takes place RAF fighter jets will shoot down aircraft in Irish airspace if they are hijacked by terrorists for a 9/11-style attack.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/raf-tornado-jets-could-shoot-down-hijacked-planes-in-irish-airspace-in-event-of-terror-attack-414646.html
Surely Enda Kenny as minister for defence and Taoiseach ,should address this situation once and for all,and provide the Air Corp with the finance to buy proper fully modern jet fighter's.
It is a situation that badly needs to be redressed,not alone because we are depending on a foreign nation to defend our national airspace in this day and age,but also the time it would take for them to intervene if a terrorist incident occurred.

knucklehead6

dslamjack wrote: »

An article in this morning's Irish Examiner speak's of how if a terrorist aircraft hijacking or threat takes place RAF fighter jets will shoot down aircraft in Irish airspace if they are hijacked by terrorists for a 9/11-style attack.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/raf-tornado-jets-could-shoot-down-hijacked-planes-in-irish-airspace-in-event-of-terror-attack-414646.html
Surely Enda Kenny as minister for defence and Taoiseach ,should address this situation once and for all,and provide the Air Corp with the finance to buy proper fully modern jet fighter's.
It is a situation that badly needs to be redressed,not alone because we are depending on a foreign nation to defend our national airspace in this day and age,but also the time it would take for them to intervene if a terrorist incident occurred.

This isn't exactly news. I think this arrangement has been in place since September 2001

Tow

This is not news, it has been this way for years. Better this way than paying an extra €100 plus tax a year to run 3 or 4 jets.

Captain Chaos

dslamjack wrote: »

Surely Enda Kenny as minister for defence and Taoiseach ,should address this situation once and for all,and provide the Air Corp with the finance to buy proper fully modern jet fighter's.
It is a situation that badly needs to be redressed,not alone because we are depending on a foreign nation to defend our national airspace in this day and age,

We can't afford it, simple as. Even Germany are finding it hard lately to fund their airforce and it's currently in tatters and that's from the strongest economy in the EU.

SEPT 23 1989

11 minutes from RAF Valley

Bazzy

In the real world.


How long would it take them to go to Say Donegal or Kerry from the UK?

Captain Chaos

Bazzy wrote: »

In the real world.


How long would it take them to go to Say Donegal or Kerry from the UK?

About 15mins. The RAF have 4 armed Eurofighters on QRA with 5 minutes takeoff notice 24/7.

ScouseMouse

Ireland should be grateful and I think they are. Unless the extremists decide to have a go at Ireland for allowing the use of Shannon, then its probably the UK that would be the target.

Can you imagine the carnage if they did a 9-11 in central London?

Ireland does not need a rapid reaction capability and RAF Valley are willing and able. Be happy with it.

irish_goat

Is there a cost for this?

questionmark?

Do the RAF have any aircraft based in NI?

Considering the costs involved I think Ireland is quite lucky to have the Brits willing to do the defending of our airspace for us, it's not ideal but it is practical.

gizmo555

dslamjack wrote: »

Surely Enda Kenny as minister for defence and Taoiseach ,should address this situation once and for all,and provide the Air Corp with the finance to buy proper fully modern jet fighter's.

It says a lot about the priority of defence in Irish political thinking that there hasn't been a dedicated Minister for Defence for over five years and that, according to the "Examiner" report, the Irish civil service excluded our Defence Forces from the negotiations on this matter, despite the RAF asking for them to be involved.

Captain Chaos

irish_goat wrote: »

Is there a cost for this?

Not really, we are letting them use our airspace to intercept Russian aircraft over the west coast and Donegal so they don't have to take the long way round and require more mid air refuling. Works for them, they get more time on station.

Edgarfrndly

We should have invested in it while the economy was strong, and the state wasn't crippled with debt. Right now, we simply can't afford it.

It is shocking how poor our air corps is in comparison to other small countries like Norway.

Captain Chaos

Edgarfrndly wrote: »

We should have invested in it while the economy was strong, and the state wasn't crippled with debt. Right now, we simply can't afford it.

It is shocking how poor our air corps is in comparison to other small countries like Norway.

We still wouldn't be able to afford the up keep, maintenance and training costs year to year. Never mind buy the fighters and weapons.

It costs millions per year just servicing the engines alone.

They were looking at buying some L-39 combat jet trainers in the boom years alright, but even they would not be able intercept anything faster than a helicopter. You need a supersonic fighter to intercept an airliner, anything else has no chance.

Alun

ScouseMouse wrote: »

Ireland does not need a rapid reaction capability and RAF Valley are willing and able. Be happy with it.

RAF Valley is a training base with Hawk trainers and also houses the Mountain Rescue service. The Typhoon QRA aircraft are based in Coningsby in Lincolnshire and Lossiemouth in Scotland.

Storm 10

While I think the Air Corps should have some kind of fast jet its great that the RAF are there if they were required given the way things are going on today in the World.

Alun

Edgarfrndly wrote: »

We should have invested in it while the economy was strong, and the state wasn't crippled with debt. Right now, we simply can't afford it.

It is shocking how poor our air corps is in comparison to other small countries like Norway.

There's a whole lot more to running a squadron of military jets than just buying them, the total running costs over their lifetime dwarf the initial outlay.

Stealthfins

If we had our own oil wells and got our rightfull fishing quota and 75% of the catch rate.
We'd have our own Air Force.

Tabnabs

Edgarfrndly wrote: »

We should have invested in it while the economy was strong, and the state wasn't crippled with debt. Right now, we simply can't afford it.

It is shocking how poor our air corps is in comparison to other small countries like Norway.

Norway, the NATO member with the only active border with Russia (formerly Soviet Union)? Why do you think they have a long history of US manufactured fighter jets, never mind the massive multi nation military exercises?

Apples and oranges.

basill

The UK RAF are highly skilled trained aviators that don't just practice in the sim but are active across the world killing the bad guys on a daily basis. It makes no sense to waste your tax dollars setting up an Irish squadron who will have zero combat time. Much less chance of the ball being dropped with the Brits doing the dirty work if required. Also it gives Enda and his cronies a "political out" if a mistake is made.

Edgarfrndly

Tabnabs wrote: »

Norway, the NATO member with the only active border with Russia (formerly Soviet Union)? Why do you think they have a long history of US manufactured fighter jets, never mind the massive multi nation military exercises?

Apples and oranges.

Even Croatia has fighter jets in their air force. It has a small population than Ireland. Denmark is the same, and Denmark isn't bordered by Russia.

Ireland has no fighter capable aircraft, and as an island state - it's laughable. Whether or not it's a member of NATO is irrelevant as to whether or not it should be able to defend its airspace.

Del2005

Stealthfins wrote: »

If we had our own oil wells and got our rightfull fishing quota and 75% of the catch rate.
We'd have our own Air Force.

They'd still blow it on something else, properly equipping our armed forces is so low down the list of politicians priorities that it doesn't register. Not helped by the lie that we are neutral, which would require a properly equipped defence forces, rather then what we are which is militarily non aligned.

sandbelter

Post Brexit you'd be naive to think the UK and the EU would remain on friendly terms (Think Putin, Schroder and Chirac standing shoulder to shoulder in 2004 expressing their opposition to Iraq).

You'd be equally naive to think with the UK out of the EU that Russia wouldn't be steadily attempting to integrate into the EU.....they have even a worse neighbors they are called China and North Korea, though that may take 10+ years.

In short it to points to a difficult decision for ireland as Europe (increasingly integrated) asks Ireland a very blunt question: Why is the RAF defending your airspace as a EU member when we can place fighters in Ireland to do for you?

That's the day that Ireland will discover it was a very expensive decision not to have your own effective air force.

AndyBoBandy

As much as it would be nice to have a squadron of jet fighters/interceptors to call our own, I could think of a few things the billions and billions of €€ it would cost to purchase/maintain such a fleet could be spent on that would have a higher priority.

That sort of outlay will never make economical sense, particularly as it would only realistically be used at air shows and so on.

Thanks but I'd much rather the Brits offer to protect us and thus spend billions on the technology/training/maintenance.

Cessna_Pilot

Until the day Denis O'Brien starts building fighter jets the point is moot :pac:

alane20

Would we actually need aircraft, would a surface to air missile system not suffice? Rogue aircraft transponder shut off, not responding to radio calls, send up a Sam, now if it happens to be a Russian bear up to its old tricks we could have a bit of bother but shouldn't have been there with transponder turned off

Davidth88

Well I think the wrong question is being asked. I question why the iac have expensive fancy trainers. After all how is a pc9 going to qualify anyone to fly helicopters or the casa/lear ? . I would be outsourcing that training to the raf as well and save the money for more casas or similar who do a hugely important job .

But maybe I am in a minority.

FR85

Again while it would be nice to have there is a lot more that needs sorting out within this country at the moment. While I see the important role that the IAC plays it at the same time is a little bit of a waste. Baldonnell itself could also be shared and be used for biz jet traffic along with small commuter traffic while still homing the IAC, something that has been looked at and shot down. If Baldonnell was generating a form of a self sustaining income through the use of it's facilities then investment could be looked at

Davidth88

Excellent idea... raf northolt near where I used to live is a good example of this.

FR85

Davidth88 wrote: »

Excellent ... raf northolt near where I used to live is a good example of this.

I've seen numerous fighter jets at loads of airports around Europe so they are shared, Gran Canaria has some fighters based there so it obviously does work.

Again it would also generate work in the area, had Lufthansa Technik not have shut there would have been a major maintenance facility close by, for a small airfreight service there are about 10 industrial estates in the area with Greenoge practically on the field.......it's a no brainer and Tony Ryan saw it years ago

Del2005

Davidth88 wrote: »

Well I think the wrong question is being asked. I question why the iac have expensive fancy trainers. After all how is a pc9 going to qualify anyone to fly helicopters or the casa/lear ? . I would be outsourcing that training to the raf as well and save the money for more casas or similar who do a hugely important job .

But maybe I am in a minority.

Not in a minority. The IAC needs fishery patrol and transport aircraft, not obsolete fast jet trainers when we'll never have fast jets.

rjpf1980

Any RAF jet pilot should be made land and fill out 4 copies in black pen of a 15 page permit form and wait for a reply letter before he/she can continue on their mission.

arubex

questionmark? wrote: »

Do the RAF have any aircraft based in NI?

Not since the days of Shackletons at Ballykelly. I think the last operational gun-toting 'fighters' based in NI would have been the Vampires of 502 Ulster Auxiliary Squadron which were withdrawn in 1957.

RAF Phantoms along with Navy Buccaneers and Sea Vixens cycled through Aldergrove and Sydenham for servicing until the 1970s but weren't operational here.

They had support helicopters based in NI during the 'Troubles' but those have been drawn back to their mainland bases.

At present the Army Air Corps have Islanders and Gazelles based at Aldergrove.

Stovepipe

@edgarfrndly, Croatia has an old fighter force of Mig 21s as a legacy of the 1991 war and it's permanent priority is keeping an eye on their Serbian neighbours, who are pals of Russia. Denmark holds the keys to the Baltic and is about two seconds flight time from Kaliningrad, a Russian enclave and is a long time ally of Sweden and Norway.They have to have modern fighters.

ScouseMouse

I live next to Baldonnel and regularly see planes doing laps around the area. At the boards visit a few months back I asked what was happening.

Was told the pilots had to keep their hours up to keep their licenses. So that suggests they don't have enough real work to do. Flying round in circles just to clock up hours ?? WTF???

sdanseo

Captain Chaos wrote: »

About 15mins. The RAF have 4 armed Eurofighters on QRA with 5 minutes takeoff notice 24/7.

In RAF Connignsby, not Valley. We are a good 30 mins away on the East Coast, realistically.

As for not being able to afford fighters - rubbish. A brand new set of 4 Saab Gripens would set us back $160-240m at face value - buying four would probably make it $150m or €135m. Not much more than 10% of Defence Budget and would be one-off to serve us about 30 years.

GHOST MGG

Pointless trolĺing does not add anything to the the discussion except show the posters immaturity.

SimonLynch

sdanseo wrote: »

In RAF Connignsby, not Valley. We are a good 30 mins away on the East Coast, realistically.

As for not being able to afford fighters - rubbish. A brand new set of 4 Saab Gripens would set us back $160-240m at face value - buying four would probably make it $150m or €135m. Not much more than 10% of Defence Budget and would be one-off to serve us about 30 years.

I'm no expert on this so be gentle with me :-) There's even better value in eatern europe and it was submitted two or three years ago (mothballed Czech fighters I think). I was told jet planes are cheaper to maintain than turbo props, less moving parts? There're two military airfields on Anglesey, Valley and Mona, never saw anything more than Hawks in 10 years passing them. I think Mona's a backup in case Valley gets hit.

Storm 10

ScouseMouse wrote: »

RAF Valley are willing and able. Be happy with it.

RAF Valley is a training base, no Typhoons stationed there, the RAF QRA bases are Coningsby & Lossie, nowhere else.

Storm 10

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

11 minutes from RAF Valley

For a Hawk trainer, no QRA based there.

Storm 10

Nice piece on RAF QRA:

micosoft

Edgarfrndly wrote: »

We should have invested in it while the economy was strong, and the state wasn't crippled with debt. Right now, we simply can't afford it.

It is shocking how poor our air corps is in comparison to other small countries like Norway.

Might you have any other "small" country examples other than the "small" country with a trillion dollars of oil money in the bank and a border with Russia?

newcavanman

There are some very good points here. As I see it, here is what needs to be done
1. Many of the roles currently performed by the IAC are not really military roles. Examples are air ambulance, which in most other countries are operated by civilian operators.
2. Training. We seem to operate a military training aystem that should lead to fast jet operations, but doesnt. I believe we could participate in the RAF or similar training streams, including secondjng some of our pilots to become instructors. This would have to be cheaper.
3. People have discussed us buying 4-6 jets. This is wrong, we would need a full squadron at least 12 aircraft, to allow for 4 aircraft on qra, at any time, plus aircraft in maintenence, training flights etc.
4. Baldonnel should be oped to biz jets etc, as mentioned by others
5. If a qra was to be maintarin this country, I think, ideally it should be in the West, knock or similar. Its more likely, I think that a hijack or similar is likely to occur out there. If we had an integrated air defense zone with the UK, this would mean 3 equally space bases, with the better ability to react to an emergency
6. This would not be as cheap as our current line up, but it would serve a real purpose
7. The RAF are already retiring early typhoons from service, imsure they could be made available even o. A pay by the hour system, which I think is similar to what the Czech Republic and Hungary do

Tea drinker

Edgarfrndly wrote: »

Even Croatia has fighter jets in their air force. It has a small population than Ireland. Denmark is the same, and Denmark isn't bordered by Russia.

Ireland has no fighter capable aircraft, and as an island state - it's laughable. Whether or not it's a member of NATO is irrelevant as to whether or not it should be able to defend its airspace.

Yugoslavia had a very capable military, also had a lot of domestic production.
The ex YU countries are largely living on past glories and aren't buying big ticket items. Rather they are selling plenty of "surplus" to the small conflicts.

Stovepipe wrote: »

@edgarfrndly, Croatia has an old fighter force of Mig 21s as a legacy of the 1991 war and it's permanent priority is keeping an eye on their Serbian neighbours, who are pals of Russia. Denmark holds the keys to the Baltic and is about two seconds flight time from Kaliningrad, a Russian enclave and is a long time ally of Sweden and Norway.They have to have modern fighters.

Meanwhile Serbia has a couple Mig 29 that were refurbished by Russia, various old trainer ground attack aircraft like galebs.
There will be no conflict between those countries but it serves the politicians in both to talk about the bogeymen.
If there is a conflict people would hardly notice - at least for the air component.

sdanseo

newcavanman wrote: »

There are some very good points here. As I see it, here is what needs to be done
1. Many of the roles currently performed by the IAC are not really military roles. Examples are air ambulance, which in most other countries are operated by civilian operators.
2. Training. We seem to operate a military training aystem that should lead to fast jet operations, but doesnt. I believe we could participate in the RAF or similar training streams, including secondjng some of our pilots to become instructors. This would have to be cheaper.
3. People have discussed us buying 4-6 jets. This is wrong, we would need a full squadron at least 12 aircraft, to allow for 4 aircraft on qra, at any time, plus aircraft in maintenence, training flights etc.
4. Baldonnel should be oped to biz jets etc, as mentioned by others
5. If a qra was to be maintarin this country, I think, ideally it should be in the West, knock or similar. Its more likely, I think that a hijack or similar is likely to occur out there. If we had an integrated air defense zone with the UK, this would mean 3 equally space bases, with the better ability to react to an emergency
6. This would not be as cheap as our current line up, but it would serve a real purpose
7. The RAF are already retiring early typhoons from service, imsure they could be made available even o. A pay by the hour system, which I think is similar to what the Czech Republic and Hungary do

Absolutely no need for 4 a/c ready at any one time. The UK have 4 - to cover an area several times the size (albeit not if you include the Irish area of interest out to 15W).

2 in maintenance or off duty, 2 ready, PC-9M for training. It's a trainer after all.

Phil.x

We should scrap irish water and spend the €90,000,000 on one eurofighter.

Negative_G

ScouseMouse wrote: »

I live next to Baldonnel and regularly see planes doing laps around the area. At the boards visit a few months back I asked what was happening.

Was told the pilots had to keep their hours up to keep their licenses. So that suggests they don't have enough real work to do. Flying round in circles just to clock up hours ?? WTF???

I would be extremely interested to know who gave you that information on that day. I will go out on a whim and assume that it was a non flying member of the Air Corps who was tasked with the tour.

Either that or perhaps you are confusing licenses with currency. All pilots need currency and if it involves going up and flying circuits for an hour, then that's what is done.

The aircraft you see flying 'laps' are quite probably PC-9M aircraft. An entire cadet class could spend 100's of hours flying circuits while they hone their flying ability.

EDIT - From the Air Corps FB page:

"During the flying phase of the course the 9 students of the 32nd RACCC have, between them, completed: 1381 flights, 1605 flying hours and have landed the PC-9M aircraft a total of 8,446 times."

This does not include any other fixed wing or rotary aircraft movements. All these new pilots will go on to fly more circuits in whatever new aircraft they move on to.

Muahahaha

So RAF defending Irish airspace. But what is the protocol in the event an airplane needs to be shot down? Wait until it is over the Irish Sea or shoot it as soon as its intercepted, irrespective of the population centres below? The RAF and Dept of Defence would likely say thats operational information but itd be nice to know

BonkeyDonker

sdanseo wrote: »

Absolutely no need for 4 a/c ready at any one time. The UK have 4 - to cover an area several times the size (albeit not if you include the Irish area of interest out to 15W).

2 in maintenance or off duty, 2 ready, PC-9M for training. It's a trainer after all.

You need to train in the aircraft to A) Gain the rating and maintain competency sat least two more would be needed.

Negative_G

Muahahaha wrote: »

So RAF defending Irish airspace. But what is the protocol in the event an airplane needs to be shot down? Wait until it is over the Irish Sea or shoot it as soon as its intercepted, irrespective of the population centres below? The RAF and Dept of Defence would likely say thats operational information but itd be nice to know

I think you answered your own question.

Tenger

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

11 minutes from RAF Valley

11 mins once the jets actually get the OK from their direct sqn/wing cmdr......but how long will that take.........?

Even if those jets where based in Baldonnel and only 4-5 minutes away then the same decision making bottleneck would exist.

The Irish Govt OODA loop would be/is laughable.



This subject pops up regularly here and in the military forums.
My answer is always similar; you need more than just 4-6 fast jets. You need a squadron of 12-14. Too many you say?
How about 2 on QRA, 2 on back up, 2-4 on hanger maintainance. Thats 6-8 at Baldonnell.
Then you might follow the Dutch or German system and have the other 6 (4 active, 2 back up?) In the US for training and currency excercises.

So thats 12 fast jets with attendant petsonell, logistical support and facilities required every year after the initial capital expenditure of millions per 2nd hand aircraft. (Which then have to be armed, maintained, and fuelled)


Someone above compared us to Croatia. They forgot that Croatia inherited the post Soviet military air force and have maintained it (Mig-21s!!)....Moldova however very sensibly sold off their Soviet airforce to the USA. They got hard cash and got rid off a cash drain on their economy.