Powerscourt Review & Top 100 Holes

Kevinmarkham

The new issue of the Irish Golfer Magazine is out - mags should be in clubhouses/on shelves next week, but the digital version is here: http://digital.irishgolfer.ie/i/710643-september-2016

It includes the review of the two Powerscourt courses by Boards-own PrincessPoppy, Macker1 and Ridonkulous. Thanks again to all three. It was a most enjoyable day.

The mag also has a listing of the Best 100 Irish golf holes... which might stimulate the usual, entertaining debate on this forum:rolleyes:

FixdePitchmark

Fair play Kevin.

Nice piece of work.

It is a very difficult task - because with that many holes in the country - and the time between playing courses - it is hard to fully remember and compare.

I'd put Corballis number 3 ahead of many of the par 4s in the list I have played.

Enniscrone could feel hard done by not getting 3 in and The Island is so good - you could pick 3 different holes altogether.

But fair play - an almost impossible task.

Rikand

No club beginning with the letter A gets in the list

Justice for the A's!

thewobbler

Kevin I know you fellas prefer links golf, but selecting 19 out of 25 par 3s from links courses is really a bit much.

There are innumerable outstanding 1 shot parkland holes up and down the island, but they'll never have a chance of featuring when the authors show a preference for any bland links hole with a wacky green. The one from North West is a perfect example. It's a good hole, but isn't a design masterpiece; I'd be certain that if the designer ha have had more room then it would have been a longer hole. So he just made the green smaller. Nothing special about that. Indeed if you played an identical holeon a pitch and putt course, it wouldn't stand out.

I can't help but thinking that this article fell into the same trap as every course ranking article, whereby the links obsession has to be seen to manifest itself in the outcome, and that certain courses have to be represented in order to give the article credence among golf's old order.


just my tuppence!

Mantis Toboggan

Definitely seems to be a bias towards links holes for sure but as always these lists are very subjective.

Thought the 18th at citywest deserved a mention, great finishing hole.

FixdePitchmark

Yes is subjective and very few people are in a position to even comment as you have to have played - most /all courses.

I've played a 1/3 of them - so nowhere near there.

Good point on par 3s.

I have not traveled far enough if Druids Glen doesn't get a par 3 in the list.

I admit - I haven't actually traveled far enough.

Kevinmarkham

thewobbler wrote: »

Kevin I know you fellas prefer links golf, but

Interesting that you pick the hole at North West as an example... it's on Ally's Top 18 so I'm sure he'd have a detailed response... it was almost on my Top 18 too! And one of the reasons it's so good is because it's so short. If there's one thing I hate it's a par three that measures 220 yards... just because it can be. For me, North West's par three is all about the subtlety and confidence required to find the putting surface... and not to miss it on the wrong side of the green.

I hadn't done a count on the split between parkland/links par threes, so the 6/19 combination is useful.

I also take umbrage at your comment 'the authors show a preference for any bland links hole with a wacky green'. I expected a constructive debate not a cheap shot. Just because our opinions don't match yours doesn't mean they are any less valid. If you care to put up your top 10 par threes then we can have a more constructive discussion.

There are numerous excellent parkland par threes and we started with something like 50 and narrowed it down from there. Druid's Glen 8th, Macreddin 4th, Mount Juliet 3rd, Rathcore 16th, Slieve Russell 11th didn't make the final cut but are all exceptional holes.

We are not trying to appease anyone - least of all golf's old order - we simply find links golf holes to be more fascinating than parkland holes. It doesn't mean they're more fun to play - plenty of golfers don't like links golf and you can't beat a tee shot that drops from the heavens - we simply believe them to be better holes.

Kevinmarkham

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Yes is subjective and very few people are in a position to even comment as you have to have played - most /all courses.

I've played a 1/3 of them - so nowhere near there.

Good point on par 3s.

I have not traveled far enough if Druids Glen doesn't get a par 3 in the list.

I admit - I haven't actually traveled far enough.

I had Druid's 8th and 17th on my initial list... I was very sorry that the 8th ended up not making it.

Kevinmarkham

Rikand wrote: »

No club beginning with the letter A gets in the list

Justice for the A's!

Alas poor Ardglass (1st) and Arklow (8th)... the two 'A' contenders which did not make it.

fred funk }{

Kevinmarkham wrote: »

Alas poor Ardglass (1st) and Arklow (8th)... the two 'A' contenders which did not make it.

Arklow 7th?

thewobbler

lol Kevin, looks like the wacky greens comment didn't go down well - apologies.

I prefer links golf, and I'd think most people do. It's a more skilled, more strategic version of the game.

But the reason why I used that phrase above is that par 3s generally don't have a strategy apart from aiming for the safe part of the green, or aiming for the flag.

So in order to justify putting a links par 3 above a parkland alternative, commentators tend to invent some sort of a strategic element, which usually revolves around the subtleties/ cruelties of the putting surfaces.

So the tendency of these links-loving commentators is to create illusions of grandeur where they just don't exist. And in this particular instance, I think that you and Ally are doing the same.

I'm no fan of monster par 3s myself. But that hole in northwest is not exciting, and not difficult either. Its memorability comes from being unusually short. I once played a 268 yard par 3 in North Carolina and I will never forget it either. Doesn't make either of them a good hole!

Rikand

I don't think the 4th in sligo should be anywhere near the list. I'd have all 3 of the other par 3's ahead of it. I'd have 2 of the par 3's in athlone well ahead of it (2nd and 10th). 2nd is a great short par3 which for the love of God don't miss left and it ain't no picnic short or right with well positioned bunkers. The 10th in athlone like the 4th in sligo don't miss it short right as the green slopes from right to left. In sligo the best option is to putt it which is a great percentage shot, you don't have anywhere near that luxury on 10 in athlone.

Surely the 16th(?) in adare is worth a shout. Great par 3 all the way across water.

Cody OHare

Interesting choice for the holes in The Island. I would have argued that 1, 2, 3, 7, 12, 16 & 18 are all better than the 14th and 15th. Also Rosapenna Sandy Hills, IMHO the 6th (view from the fairway down to the green) is a far more picturesque hole than the 4th.
It just shows how different things appeal to different people.

All in all a great piece, even if you will always get people (like me) disagreeing. I have to say I like the perspective you bring to your articles.

Cody OHare

thewobbler wrote: »

lol Kevin, looks like the wacky greens comment didn't go down well - apologies.

I prefer links golf, and I'd think most people do. It's a more skilled, more strategic version of the game.

But the reason why I used that phrase above is that par 3s generally don't have a strategy apart from aiming for the safe part of the green, or aiming for the flag.

So in order to justify putting a links par 3 above a parkland alternative, commentators tend to invent some sort of a strategic element, which usually revolves around the subtleties/ cruelties of the putting surfaces.

So the tendency of these links-loving commentators is to create illusions of grandeur where they just don't exist. And in this particular instance, I think that you and Ally are doing the same.

I'm no fan of monster par 3s myself. But that hole in northwest is not exciting, and not difficult either. Its memorability comes from being unusually short. I once played a 268 yard par 3 in North Carolina and I will never forget it either. Doesn't make either of them a good hole!

Do you not thing the impact of a varying wind speed from different directions on different days necessitates a change of strategy?

Rikand

Cody OHare wrote: »

Do you not thing the impact of a varying wind speed from different directions on different days necessitates a change of strategy?

Would that not be the same on any golf hole ?

Dtoffee

I know selecting a top 100 is all in the eye of the beholder, but Dooks 2nd hole ??? on a course that boasts so many good holes. The second is drivable, wide open and relies on a tricky elevated green. The challenge is more crazy golf than skill as you can knock down your second and still scuttle on to the green and the views having nothing to do with a golf hole in my opinion.

Compare that hole to the Dooks 18th, where you drive up a hill to an unseen fairway and then are looking at long shot to a high green that is well protected by the grass banks, it is impossible to fluke a shot onto it .... you and your golf ball need to rise to the challenge :rolleyes:. Strategy, risk and reward .... thats what a good golf hole should be imho.

As for the par 3s ...... Coolattin's garden hole would get a nod from me and Arklows 7th is another card wrecker (both short enough and innocent to look at).

thewobbler

Cody, while pin positions and wind might affect the choice of club and flight, they shouldn't affect the basic strategy of playing a par 3, which will always boil down to aiming for the pin, or aiming for the most inviting part of the green.

If we've learned one thing from watching US Opens over the years, it's that a green keeper with a low blade and a devilish persuasion can render any parkland par 3 something of a lottery for even the most gifted of players; this is not the sole preserve of links par 3s.

Anyhow, back on point. I've no qualms at all about a links bias in par 4s and par 5s. Dunes and seascapes naturally frame these holes better than any inland creation can hope for, so they tend to be memorable (as well as strategic).

But if consolidating the 1200-1300 par 3s in Ireland down to just a 25 best (which, admittedly is a thankless task!), then memorability has to play a huge role. I'm genuinely surprised to see such a strong links bias, as maybe as many as half of the parkland courses in Ireland have a genuinely memorable par 3.

ChippingSodbury

I'm surprised 13th in Ballinrobe doesn't make the Par 3 list: it's a lovely (and tricky) hole
https://www.golfnet.ie/News%20Listing%20Assets/Feature%20Hole%2013th.jpg?RenditionID=12

Domo1982

Kevinmarkham wrote: »

we simply find links golf holes to be more fascinating than parkland holes.

If that's your starting point then how can the article be balanced kevin?

Cody OHare

Rikand wrote: »

Cody OHare wrote: »

Do you not thing the impact of a varying wind speed from different directions on different days necessitates a change of strategy?

Would that not be the same on any golf hole ?

thewobbler wrote: »

Cody, while pin positions and wind might affect the choice of club and flight, they shouldn't affect the basic strategy of playing a par 3, which will always boil down to aiming for the pin, or aiming for the most inviting part of the green.

Rikand, Yes all courses are affected by the wind but I would contend that par 3's on links are much more severely affected. I grew up playing parkland and played parkland when I lived in UK for 10 years and have played links for last 15 in Ireland. Any parkland I've been a member of, I've know the required club for a par 3 (+ or - 1 or possibly 2 clubs) before I left the clubhouse. On a links I can have a club variation of Driver to 7I. Additionally the direction and severity of the wind is closely aligned to the high and low tides.


thewobbler, wind variation and firmness of the greens (which vary from winter to summer) make a significant difference. On a hole I play regularly (190Mtrs), I need to choose whether to hit at the pin, at the green or even whether I aim up the left hand side away from the green and hope the contours bring the ball back onto the green. I need to not only consider the impact on the wind in club selection but also on whether I hit a normal or a knock down / punch shot. In summer if the wind is with me and I'm playing well I would probably aim at the flag. If its against I would never aim at the flag. If its blowing left to right or strongly against me I would look to hit it low and left and hope to use the contours to bring it back to the green. Is that not strategy?


By the way, I'm not saying that there should or shouldn't be more parkland courses, I just disagree with the assertion that par 3's don't require strategic thinking.

thewobbler

Cody, surely strategy and execution aren't the same thing though?

You don't get to influence either the starting position or pin position on a par 3. As such your strategy / choice boils down to whether to take it on or not; how you execute that choice is a different matter.

Don't get me wrong, there are variations and subsets within the choice - opting to fade / draw / punch might enhance the chances of the safe shot presenting a birdie chance. But again, I reckon this holds true for every short hole in golf, and ultimately pin placement is the key factor. I've no doubt that Ally and Kevin would explain that each of their chosen 25 have greens that facilitate this to the max - and my point is that this isn't solely the preserve of seaside greens.

eoghan104

Great list. Lots of links but that's subjective and no problem with it.

My gripe would be Druid's Glen 18th not making the cut! I think it is a super finish. Would tip my hat to the 15th too.

IrishZeus

Surprised the 14th and 15th on Narin Portnoo didn't get a mention under the Par 5's.

The uphill 14th with dunes on either side gives an odd sense of feeling like you're in a tunnel while the 15th running back along the beach has to be, in my own opinion, the most visually stunning hole I have ever played.

Loire

Great list. One I've mentioned here before is the 12th at Water Rock in Cork. WR is a perfectly average club to be fair but the 12th is a cracking par 3....about 200 yards completely over water, lined by trees on the left and OOB on the right. It's a classic. I do remember hitting driver onto the green from the blues one day messing and it is probably why I'm so biased!

ChippingSodbury

Loire wrote: »

Great list. One I've mentioned here before is the 12th at Water Rock in Cork. WR is a perfectly average club to be fair but the 12th is a cracking par 3....about 200 yards completely over water, lined by trees on the left and OOB on the right. It's a classic. I do remember hitting driver onto the green from the blues one day messing and it is probably why I'm so biased!

Definitely! That's a cracking Par 3. It's loooong and over water but fair because there is a bail out area all the way along the left. Yonks since I played there, I had forgotten about it.

Kevinmarkham

There were always going to be arguments on here about what was or wasn't included. Hardly surprising. As has been pointed out, it's subjective... and that is certainly true on my part. As I wrote in the introduction to the list, Ally and I had different viewpoints on what makes a great hole. He's a designer, I'm a golf writer so that's to be expected. And each of us had to give up a number of holes (Narin and Portnoo 15 for example) to accommodate the other contributor.

Clearly one of the main concerns from Boardsies is the links bias. Maybe the following will help.

Rikand wrote: »

I don't think the 4th in sligo should be anywhere near the list. I'd have all 3 of the other par 3's ahead of it.

This is particularly interesting - because my favourite par three is the 13th at Co. Sligo. However - in my opinion - the 4th is a better hole. Whichever way the wind blows you are going to be playing a 'different' hole. And no, that's not true of any par three. I'm not talking about taking an extra club because of the wind. If the wind is in your face on the 4th you have to land the ball on the green... that's your only option. But if the wind is behind, there are times when you can't land the ball on the green and keep it there.

This, I hope, goes some ways to addressing thewobbler's comments about links vs. parklands par threes. At Co. Sligo, when the wind is behind you, can punch an iron down into the dip and let it run up that big slope onto the green. Or you can 'play safe' and go for the bail out area to the left of the green, leaving you with an uphill shot to the flag. It's about having options, playing different shots and having the nerve to play them. But go right of the green and you're totally screwed.

That is why the 4th is such a brilliant hole. On most parkland par threes, you play to land the ball on the green, whichever way the wind blows. I'm not denigrating parkland par threes - not one bit - but as Cody O'Hare pointed out, there is typically more strategy involved with a links par three.


[PS. Rikand, Adare was excluded due to the redesign work]

Cody OHare wrote: »

Interesting choice for the holes in The Island. I would have argued that 1, 2, 3, 7, 12, 16 & 18 are all better than the 14th and 15th. Also Rosapenna Sandy Hills, IMHO the 6th (view from the fairway down to the green) is a far more picturesque hole than the 4th.
It just shows how different things appeal to different people.

All in all a great piece, even if you will always get people (like me) disagreeing.

Yep, I'd have included just about every hole at The Island if I could... oddly, though, I'd have put holes 5, 8 and 17 ahead of all your choices! Just a touch weird.

As for Sandy Hills 6th... to be blunt, the bunker in front of the green irritates me. On a downhill approach to a tough links hole I don't think that bunker is necessary. Let the golfer play short and run the ball on.

fred funk }{ wrote: »

Arklow 7th?

I don't actually like the 7th:eek: ... Hole 3 is the best par three at Arklow, IMO.


It's great to see all the holes which are being listed. I agree with some... not with others... but it proves everyone has their own idea of what makes a great hole. I disagree with Dtoffee about views/surroundings not being part of a great golf hole. My take has always been about the experience of playing a course/hole and the memories it leaves. That's one of the reasons Dooks' 2nd is in there (plus the fact that it's drivable if you choose). I remember playing the Lakes course (now a car park) at Citywest and driving down the 1st with houses pretty much wrapped around me. I don't remember anything about the hole but those houses.

Thanks for all the feedback.

ChippingSodbury

Kevinmarkham wrote: »

This, I hope, goes some ways to addressing thewobbler's comments about links vs. parklands par threes. At Co. Sligo, when the wind is behind you, can punch an iron down into the dip and let it run up that big slope onto the green. Or you can 'play safe' and go for the bail out area to the left of the green, leaving you with an uphill shot to the flag. It's about having options, playing different shots and having the nerve to play them. But go right of the green and you're totally screwed.

I have never seen anyone do that (on purpose!!) on that hole. I'm probably biased as it's my home course and I would agree that it's a great Par 3. I've played off the tee with probably 10 of the 14 clubs in the bag. There is no bunker (and obviously no trees) and it is still extremely well protected. When the wind blows from the east which isn't all that often, it can be almost impossible to hold the green unless you play a left to right slider.

Kevinmarkham

ChippingSodbury wrote: »

I have never seen anyone do that (on purpose!!) on that hole. I'm probably biased as it's my home course and I would agree that it's a great Par 3. I've played off the tee with probably 10 of the 14 clubs in the bag. There is no bunker (and obviously no trees) and it is still extremely well protected. When the wind blows from the east which isn't all that often, it can be almost impossible to hold the green unless you play a left to right slider.

I'm genuinely surprised. I've done it probably five times, with a 40% success rate. Not a dissimilar shot to the approach at the 6th in Enniscrone.

ChippingSodbury

As I see it there are 2 issues:
1. The tee is at the same level as the green so the bank you're pitching into is below you: this often kills the ball dramatically.
2. The bank isn't flat, it's fairly rounded and it pushes most shots to the right which is the dangerous side.

6th in Enniscrone is above you and it's much easier to skip one up the bank.

If you ever need a demonstration of bad shots on 4th, give me a call the next day you're passing, I'm well used to hitting them :pac:

slave1

Played Rosses on Sunday, IMHO the 9th and 13th are streets ahead of the 4th, isn't it great one course can have such great par 3's without them being 200yd+. PS the 4th was a wedge Sunday, mad wind

Johnny_Fontane

on a side note, Irish Golfer (where this article is) is fantastic value at €40 for the year. They even throw in 12 Srixon Golf balls!

Support Irish Golf(er)!

Loire

slave1 wrote: »

Played Rosses on Sunday, IMHO the 9th and 13th are streets ahead of the 4th, isn't it great one course can have such great par 3's without them being 200yd+. PS the 4th was a wedge Sunday, mad wind

I've been at the last 5 or 6 West of Ireland's (as a spectator obviously!) and it's great to watch those playing able to land on and hold the 4th. Anytime I've played it and hit the green the ball drifts off down & left. Everybody else I've played with meets the same fate hitting that green. So, I'm left thinking it's really a low amateur's hole at this stage. I do like the 13th, however I think too much of the front of the green and what's in front of it is hidden from the teebox. My favourite par 3 in Rosses Pt is probably the 16th. It is long, but if you make the green, it generally holds.

Kevinmarkham

Loire wrote: »

My favourite par 3 in Rosses Pt is probably the 16th. It is long, but if you make the green, it generally holds.

And boy isn't it a gorgeous shot to watch when you hit the ball well.

ChippingSodbury

Loire wrote: »

My favourite par 3 in Rosses Pt is probably the 16th.

A few winter storms and this hole will be in trouble. A good few metres have been lost to the sea since the 2013 storms.

slave1

Forecast great so booked tomorrow off and off to play both courses, well looking forward to it