Should Children have a choice?

L.Jenkins

This question may have been asked countless times before, but should the Catholic sacraments be put off until a child or person reaches an age of reason, with the ability to choose for themselves? As someone who was a child, I never had that choice. It was forced on me. If I did however have a choice, I would never have been baptised into any religion. I even went as far as to have a civil wedding and won't be baptising my kids (Their lives, their choice).

SimonTemplar

Yes, absolutely. But what's more damaging than the actual individual ceremony is the indoctrination from a very early age of the Catholic way of thinking. Preaching to very young children about jesus and the bible in the same environment as learning fundamental skills such as reading, writing and maths is just wrong. There are many many problems with America but at least they recognized the need to separate school and church.

looksee

Except when they are teaching Creationism.

Xterminator

but you did have a choice; when you grew up. you got to make your own choices.

Parents do what they think is best for their children. im sure you will do what you think is best for your children.
Now you do not agree with your parents and that is your prerogative.

PS i know plenty of parents who told the local catholic school to exclude their children from religious classes and their was no problem.

L.Jenkins

Ireland my have been built on a foundation of Religion, at a time were there was a great divide between Catholics and Protestants, but in this modern Ireland, it should be striped from educational institutes completely, at all levels.

I really feel, that no one should be subject to Religion, until they have an understanding of what it is they are being taught.

L.Jenkins

Xterminator wrote: »

but you did have a choice; when you grew up. you got to make your own choices.

Parents do what they think is best for their children. im sure you will do what you think is best for your children. Now you do not agree with your parents and that is your prerogative.

PS i know plenty of parents who told the local catholic school to exclude their children from religious classes and their was no problem.

The inherent problem today is, if you want your child attending a 'State' school, for ease and convinence in getting a place, the children should be baptised. This is a massive problem for me.

Lau2976

100%. I came from a home with a Jewish mother and a catholic father and neither religions were ever pushed on us because my parents wanted us to decide our own paths. This isn't necessarily always respected in society, on one side Judaism is passed through the mother so ask a Jewish relative and we were automatically Jewish. Ask a Christian family member and we were Christians because we got christmas presents.

School was certainly a challenge, at home we were thought the basics if both religions and encouraged to ask questions about either, neither or both. At school we were thought Catholicism and that was it. In the 90's some teachers found it astonishing that someone in ireland would celebrate hannakuh.

inocybe

I lived in the US, Catholic parents, and confirmation wasn't until 18. Makes much more sense, though I presume the early age here is to catch them before they form an opinion. We all got away.

uck51js9zml2yt

L.Jenkins wrote: »

The inherent problem today is, if you want your child attending a 'State' school, for ease and convinence in getting a place, the children should be baptised. This is a massive problem for me.

My child is in a state school. He's not baptised. He stays in for RE and will do until communion year and then we'll pull him out.
We also teach him RE at home ( Not RC).10% of kids in the school are not RC. I'm also on the Board of Management which isn't an issue for the Bishop.

pcuser

I have 4 children and none of them are baptized. I always taught it should be up to them to choose when they are older.My eldest Daughter is 16 and has no interest in being baptized she detests religion.

magicbastarder

**** 'em, they're kids. they should go to bed when they're told, and eat what they're told, why should they have a choice about the science and ethos underpinning the very nature of existence?

L.Jenkins

Another question I have is, how have parents here found admissions to schools, whose patronage would be of the Catholic Church?

pcuser

L.Jenkins wrote: »

Another question I have is, how have parents here found admissions to schools, whose patronage would be of the Catholic Church?

I found it quiet easy with my 4 L.Jenkins. For religion class they are excluded but kept in the classroom and allowed to do other work. An Irish solution to an Irish problem I suppose.

L.Jenkins

magicbastarder wrote: »

**** 'em, they're kids. they should go to bed when they're told, and eat what they're told, why should they have a choice about the science and ethos underpinning the very nature of existence?

I wasn't discussing the Science and Ethos of nature itself. I'm talking about Religion and whether Child should be allowed to make that choice themselves when they turn 18.

magicbastarder

i'm a little bit drunk and my posts should be considered with that caveat.

Hotblack Desiato

Xterminator wrote: »

but you did have a choice; when you grew up. you got to make your own choices.

It's not easy to make a free choice when your family and your school are pushing you in a particular direction for 17 or 18 years. It can take decades to get over the indoctrination. The notion that "I'll push them through catholic school for X years doing sacraments and the whole nine yards, having the idea of religion as truth supported at home, and then let them "make up their own minds"" is bunk. The only possible way to allow children to make up their own minds is to not indoctrinate them into religion at all.

Hotblack Desiato

To answer the OP, in an ideal world every child would have a choice - in other words no child would be indoctrinated by family or society or school. But that'll never be allowed to happen, as we know that a truly free choice would mean the end of all organised religion.

eviltwin

I believe in choice. I don't think it's up to me to assign a faith to my children, that is for them to discover for themselves.

Speedwell

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm a little bit drunk and my posts should be considered with that caveat.

Alcohol polishes snark to a gleaming shine.

Speedwell

If you want your children to overcome the mistakes you made raising them, you'd better damn well teach them to think for themselves so they can also overcome the mistakes the rest of the world makes.

Hotblack Desiato

eviltwin wrote: »

I believe in choice. I don't think it's up to me to assign a faith to my children, that is for them to discover for themselves.

They [my kids] 're free to do so, but I'm also free to point out the logical fallacies and injustices of all religions [to my kids]

silverharp

eviltwin wrote: »

I believe in choice. I don't think it's up to me to assign a faith to my children, that is for them to discover for themselves.

You make it sound like you would have no opinion if they took an interest in being born again christians or Muslims or scientologists. Ive educated my kids that these beliefs cant possibly be true

goz83

L.Jenkins wrote: »

The inherent problem today is, if you want your child attending a 'State' school, for ease and convinence in getting a place, the children should be baptised. This is a massive problem for me.

I've got 3 school going children. None baptised and all in Catholic schools. Neither my wife, or myself attended the schools and we live outside the catchment area. We got them in.

I din't agree with the whole baptise for education thing and I woukd never conform to it either. IMO, it's selling ones dignity.

Absolam

L.Jenkins wrote: »

This question may have been asked countless times before, but should the Catholic sacraments be put off until a child or person reaches an age of reason, with the ability to choose for themselves? As someone who was a child, I never had that choice. It was forced on me. If I did however have a choice, I would never have been baptised into any religion. I even went as far as to have a civil wedding and won't be baptising my kids (Their lives, their choice).

I'd say if you're Catholic, the answer is to be found in Catholic doctrine; sacraments should occur at the appropriate time according to the Church. If you're Christian, your denomination may have a position on when sacraments are appropriate; many Protestant persuasions are based on an uninterceded relationship with God which might well include deciding when to engage with various sacraments for oneself.

If you're neither, I'd say avoid them

eviltwin

silverharp wrote: »

You make it sound like you would have no opinion if they took an interest in being born again christians or Muslims or scientologists. Ive educated my kids that these beliefs cant possibly be true

My kids know my opinion on religion. They also know their dad's, he's a Catholic. They can make up their own minds on what to believe. So far neither has any interest in it which I'm happy about but if they do find God I'll support and respect it.

Imnotthehulk

Should Children have a choice? No. Why? Because kids are morons.

I certainly agree that all state provided education should only cover religion in a matter that educates the child rather than indoctrinates.

However, I certainly have no problem with Catholic parents raising their children within Catholicism. OR COI, or what have you. Parents should raise their kids the best way they know how, for the most part I don't think going to mass for 45 minutes once a week is going to harm them too much (or for that matter lying about going to mass once the kids hit their teens).

looksee

I tend to agree, let children be raised in the ethos of the family, if that ethos is religious, then so be it. However it is not up to the state to reinforce this teaching. Education should be religion neutral. Ideally I would suggest that if a child did not want to go to church they should have that option. However if the family is going it is not realistic for one child to be left at home, so no harm in insisting they go.

My kids were taken to mass by their father every week without fail, and holy days too when they were still observed. From their late teens on all of them fell away from church attendance.

nozzferrahhtoo

Xterminator wrote: »

PS i know plenty of parents who told the local catholic school to exclude their children from religious classes and their was no problem.

What irks many people is that the "integrated curriculum" renders exclusion from religion class meaningless in some areas, because religious teaching is integrated in the rest of the curriculum too.

For me I think state schools should be about teaching children what is actually true.... or at least things we have actual arguments, evidence, data or reasoning to think true. History, geography, languages, maths, literature, science things like that. And the facts ABOUT religion too. What religions there are, what the differences are between them, how those religions manifested (for better or worse) in history. And so forth. And I think the Bible should be taught in literature classes, being as it is quite an important document for a full appreciations for things like Milton and Shakespeare.

But that there is a god, that any one religion is true or correct, that Jesus was ressurected from the dead or any of that nonsense.... there is not a shred of argument, evidence, data or reasoning on offer.... least of all on this website.... that any of that is even remotely true. As such it has no place in our state curriculum. Parents should be propagating that stuff on their own time at home, or in the relevant club houses outside school hours.