Back to Education Teachers and Tutors BTEI Contracts Urgent

Ace head

Hi. I work as a BTEI teacher and would like to start a thread for us as a community to discuss issues that may be coming down the track regarding changes to the sector and the implications for us. Can I start the ball rolling by asking if any other teachers/tutors are paid just by the hour with no contracts or salary scales. I work part time (16 hours) and have been in my current job for over a decade. I know there are people working In the sector with better and more legally appropriate conditions. I am wondering how have others achieved this?

ustazjoseph

Hi. The whole further ed section is a nightmare. It is also. Officially at least meant to be a developing area. Solar etc have plans. The union is beginning to look at this. Some etbs have given fe tutors cid contracts. Not as good as second level contracts but something. Go to tui meetings and make a little noise. It takes time. It's not fair or right but that's how it is right now.

eire236

Hi
I'm in the same boat, ie working for an ETB but with no regular hours and no rights for over ten years. My hours vary from three up to sixteen a week, all on short term contracts. Does anyone know what is the process for asking for a CID - contract of indefinite duration? I've heard if I ask for this then I will be given fewer hours! I'm with SIPTU but I don't think they know the situation we are in.

Notorious

ustazjoseph wrote: »

Go to tui meetings and make a little noise. It takes time. It's not fair or right but that's how it is right now.

I can't stress this enough. FE has little to no representation at TUI meetings in my region. The more noise that is made, the bigger the chance someone will be heard. If you work with teachers who in a similar situation to you, suggest you go to a local TUI meeting together. You can ask for issues to be put on the agenda before the meeting.

eire236

Hi
Sounds like a plan. Will have to do something, advice appreciated. Anyone else out there in same situation?

ustazjoseph

eire236 wrote: »

Hi
I'm in the same boat, ie working for an ETB but with no regular hours and no rights for over ten years. My hours vary from three up to sixteen a week, all on short term contracts. Does anyone know what is the process for asking for a CID - contract of indefinite duration? I've heard if I ask for this then I will be given fewer hours! I'm with SIPTU but I don't think they know the situation we are in.

perhaps think about joining the TUI . I believe at one time they were wary of engaging with " tutors " but as the FET sector is developing this is becoming a real issue.
You could email your manager and ask about your situation. should lead to someone in etb giving it thought at least. CID should depend on hopurs from previous years.

Ace head

Hi Eire236, the situation is much more serious than anyone realises I believe. I asked for clarification on the miserable pension calculation I have only recently been offered and was told I was a "non-academic officer". This letter arrived as I trudged my way through the piles of assessing portfolios. An obvious effort to denigrate me and my colleagues and the work we do. I am a teacher and have always considered myself such. My employer introduced the word 'tutor' some years after I began working for them. A term with no professional value, agreed terms or conditions. I am a tui member and have spent 3 years trying to get this issues sorted but to no avail. I'm currently now at the end of my tether and wonder is a private legal route a better option? Any ideas?

xtralong

The DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS/ TUI AGREEMENT of MAY 2016 outlines the following under the further education section:

"It is agreed that discussions will commence immediately regarding a conversion process for BTEI staff, according to the same principles as were applied in the recent agreement on Youthreach conversion."
http://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/Final%20TUI%20DES%20document%20090516.pdf

It is unclear what progress has been made to date, as the TUI have said nothing on the matter since and seem to be focused more on second level issues (nothing new there).

The recent conversion process in Youthreach (the center I'm familiar with at least) saw the post of tutor scrapped and staff were given a choice of either resource person or teacher contracts. Those registered with the Teaching Council (even without HDip/teaching qualifications) were given qualified teacher contracts, with the same terms and conditions as teachers in second level schools, i.e. increments, application of the ward report, 167 working days down from 209 etc. Those not registered with the teaching council could opt for unqualified teacher contracts which were not incremental. As you can imagine, all staff with TC registration went for the qualified teacher contracts, while the majority of those not registered went with resource person contracts (incremental but 209 working days and no recognition as a teacher). Previous tutor CID hours were null and void and those that opted for teacher contracts were working towards a CID again, albeit with better terms and conditions (2 years for teachers, 4 years for resource persons). Rather unfairly, existing resource persons, some of which are fully qualified second level teachers, were not offered a choice to switch to teaching contracts. So now in Youthreach we are left with three groups of people working on different contracts (resource persons, qualified teachers and unqualified teachers) doing the same job with vastly different terms and conditions. If your hoping for an effective resolution and fair treatment in your sector, don't hold your breath. My advice as previously mentioned here is to go to TUI meetings with your colleagues and make a lot of noise.

Ace head

That is interesting about the Youthreach agreement. I am led to believe that the BTEI process will be something similar. I am fully qualified adult & community education teacher and registered with the teaching council so I would expect to be offered a teachers contract. The problem is the recognition for my 12 years already worked in this area. I know there has recently been a number of rights commissioner cases where workers like me argued that they were doing teaching work and their cases were upheld. I would have thought that this would mean back money is owed for the breaches historically. This happened a number of years ago in primary teaching where part time teachers(secondary trained) were not paid the correct wages over a number of years and were given the back money they were owed. If a similar agreement were applied to me, would I get credit for my teaching up to now? At the minute my employer is saying I'm not a teacher at all but admin staff. I don't do admin, I teach. It is clear to me from looking at ads for jobs in other ETB's around the country that there will be no teaching contracts going forward. All jobs are for "resource persons" but the candidates must be teachers.

xtralong

Ace head wrote: »

. If a similar agreement were applied to me, would I get credit for my teaching up to now?

In the YR centre that I'm familiar with, the tutors were switched to teaching contracts and entered in on point 1 of the teaching scale, with no recognition of previous 'teaching' as a tutor despite some teaching for close to a decade.

Ace head wrote: »

. It is clear to me from looking at ads for jobs in other ETB's around the country that there will be no teaching contracts going forward. All jobs are for "resource persons" but the candidates must be teachers.

An absolute disgrace, a complete degradation and abuse of qualified teachers in these sectors. This should be challenged at every opportunity. Shame on the TUI for standing idly by and letting this persist.

Ace head

eire236 wrote: »

Hi
I'm in the same boat, ie working for an ETB but with no regular hours and no rights for over ten years. My hours vary from three up to sixteen a week, all on short term contracts. Does anyone know what is the process for asking for a CID - contract of indefinite duration? I've heard if I ask for this then I will be given fewer hours! I'm with SIPTU but I don't think they know the situation we are in.

The stories of teachers being dropped when they asked for their rights are rife. I have been afraid for years to look for my employment rights to be fulfilled, have had my hours cut and been told to keep my head down as it was a small pool of work and a lot of people looking for work. you cannot say anything for fear of being let go. A lot of people mistakenly believed that everything would be fine when it was eventually sorted out between DES and unions. People have been told not to join the union as it would come against you when getting hours. Last year I had to cope with multiple timetable changes and we are expected to work any hours from 9am Monday morn to 5pm Saturday evening. That is the nature of adult education but the problem is unless you can find flexible other work or are self employed as well then the small unpredictable hours you work cant provide enough income.

eire236

Yes Ace head

I believe there is a hidden policy of deliberately allocating few hours to all tutors so that it always remains a part time job. Every year there are advertisements looking for new tutors to do exactly what we are doing part time. I think you are right, we have to be careful about union membership. I've joined the TUI but they wanted to take the membership fee off my wages which I declined. I can pay by direct debit.

Recent events show how influential the TUI is as a lobby group. The only way to improve the situation I believe is to join TUI and lobby them to fight for our rights as a group anonymously.

Thanks for posting article Xtralong, I was amazed to see it, maybe there is hope!

James izzard Mason

Hi Ace Head,
Thank you for starting this thread. I have so much to say but am only seeing this now and it's very late. There is a lot happening on this front at the moment. Contracts 'could' be imminent - but I have had that carrot dangled so very many times, it is wearying! I sincerely hope this thread remains active and that it gains traction. I will post tomorrow,
JiM

James izzard Mason

Could the Thread title be changed?Anything to make it easier to find...Even add in the BTEI abbreviation' BTEI' and the word 'CONTRACTS'. Perhaps a Mod could help?

All BTEI Teachers should be phoning the TUI in the coming days as a DES/TUI Agreement is currently being written in relation to BTEI Teachers. Ask "When are we due to receive our contracts?"

When you call, refer to yourself as a TEACHER.
Make sure you are a TUI member and if not, ask to join. They are on your side.
If you have not already done so, make sure you resister with the Teaching Council of Ireland.

Above all, phone the TUI!!!

Ace head

Hi James
I tried to start a new thread but because I had a link to this thread it would not let me. Is it ok if I just quote your last post to start the new thread called "BTEI Teachers Contracts Urgent"?

James izzard Mason

No problem Ace, work away.

James izzard Mason

Just to add, can you merge the two threads? The Mods might be able to help...Thanks Ace. I'm so glad to see this thread and to know that there are more of us out there. JiM

Ace head

This is a post to highlight an issue that arose from the original attempt to get a dialogue going about Adult Education Teachers who are often invisible in the Education System. It would appear that the TUI and the DES are on the verge of agreeing a contract for adult education teachers. Our sector has been developing over the last few decades and while we started off a s part time teachers, somewhere along the way, ETB's began calling us 'tutors'..... a term of no professional value or meaning. We are now on the verge of something being agreed and it is important that all adult ed teachers make their voices heard. This is the original post and please inform any colleagues who may be in this position.
All BTEI Teachers should be phoning the TUI in the coming days as a DES/TUI Agreement is currently being written in relation to BTEI Teachers. Ask "When are we due to receive our contracts?"

When you call, refer to yourself as a TEACHER.
Make sure you are a TUI member and if not, ask to join. They are on your side.
If you have not already done so, make sure you resister with the Teaching Council of Ireland.

Above all, phone the TUI!!!"

Ace head

it is important that we have a way to safely discuss these things and not feel we will lose our jobs for speaking out. I am very new to this boards business but I have just started a new thread. It was the easiest for me to do. We can use that to discuss any agreement that is put out there.

evolving_doors

Ace head wrote: »

it is important that we have a way to safely discuss these things and not feel we will lose our jobs for speaking out. I am very new to this boards business but I have just started a new thread. It was the easiest for me to do. We can use that to discuss any agreement that is put out there.

Thread merged (so posts might be mixed-up a bit).

If you feel you might be indentifiable then there's a few simple things you can do. Change some minor details e.g. "I met the centre director yesterday at lunch and he said..." to "A colleague in another school met their centre manager last month and she said...". Throw in a few red herrings as long as your substantive point still stands and is genuine.

Good luck with it and make some noise.
Mod

James izzard Mason

There's a Typo in the title. It should read BTEI.

James izzard Mason

First off, I am inclined to think that we are the dirty little secret of the Irish Teaching profession. I don't believe that the public know that we are teaching up to 22 hours a week, with multiple different classes per week, stacks of portfolios to correct at the end of each term, no pay AT ALL over Christmas, Easter, Summer. No pay for Bank holidays or Mid terms. Zero rights or entitlements. Some of us have committed 6, 8, 10, 12 years to our centres. Why were we not offered any sort of contract?

Somehow the powers that be have managed to keep us all very VERY quiet. Was anyone else baited with the promise of a contract that so far, hasn't happened.

Several posters have mentioned a sense of threat. Threat: that if we speak up or out our hours could be cut. Is anyone else experiencing this?

Is there anyone out there teaching along side VTOS staff?

I am aware of several centres where BTEI staff are teaching the SAME courses as VTOS staff, Is that happening in your centre?

Ace and eire 236 have both mentioned 16 hours, I think this is a deliberate move to keep staff stuck in Part time hours and therefore stuck without a contract. How many of us are teaching the full 22 hours?

Anyone else unable to secure a bank loan/mortgage because you have no contract of employment?

JiM

Jane98

Can someone point me to where I can find the so call 'tutor salaries'. I have an interview tomorrow for the FET Panel and I understand that I will be paid a 'tutor' salary even though I too am a qualified teacher already a number of year up the incremental teaching salary scale.

xtralong

Ace head wrote: »

All BTEI Teachers should be phoning the TUI in the coming days as a DES/TUI Agreement is currently being written in relation to BTEI Teachers. Ask "When are we due to receive our contracts?"

When you call, refer to yourself as a TEACHER.
Make sure you are a TUI member and if not, ask to join. They are on your side.
If you have not already done so, make sure you resister with the Teaching Council of Ireland.

Above all, phone the TUI!!!"

Qualified teachers employed as resource persons in Youthreach centres need to do the same. With the DES/TUI agreement currently being negotiated, now is the time to demand equality with our teacher colleagues in second level schools and indeed in our own centres.

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but like BTEI tutors we are also the 'forgotten' members of the education system. I plan to start a separate thread on this later on.

James izzard Mason

Hi Jane,
I am unaware of any Tutor Salaries. Everybody that I know is paid by the hour. After that comes, levies, pension, tax etc. We don't (us BTEI TEACHERS) get paid over any holidays. We have no entitlements. No rights, no leave of any kind. You miss a day, even if it is a funeral, you do not get paid. If I had the flu, I would have to go to work or suffer the loss of a days pay on top of being ill. Many of us are fully qualified teachers and were where you are now. Back then I was promised so much.

Please phone the TUI. Ask them about the current negotiations involving permanent Teaching contracts for BTEI TEACHERS (and please use the word TEACHERS) between the TUI/DES.

The use of the word Tutor in this current BTEI climate is trickery and a cheap trick at that.

A tutor, by definition, teaches one-on-one, often privately. At most,a tutor will have just a tiny group.
A Teacher, teaches a larger group in a school or centre setting. We are teachers.

Jane98

James izzard Mason wrote: »

Hi Jane,
I am unaware of any Tutor Salaries. Everybody that I know is paid by the hour. After that comes, levies, pension, tax etc. We don't (us BTEI TEACHERS) get paid over any holidays. We have no entitlements. No rights, no leave of any kind. You miss a day, even if it is a funeral, you do not get paid. If I had the flu, I would have to go to work or suffer the loss of a days pay on top of being ill. Many of us are fully qualified teachers and were where you are now. Back then I was promised so much.

Please phone the TUI. Ask them about the current negotiations involving permanent Teaching contracts for BTEI TEACHERS (and please use the word TEACHERS) between the TUI/DES.

The use of the word Tutor in this current BTEI climate is trickery and a cheap trick at that.



A tutor, by definition, teaches one-on-one, often privately. At most,a tutor will have just a tiny group.
A Teacher, teaches a larger group in a school or centre setting. We are teachers.

Thanks, that actually makes sense. So, are 'tutors' currently paid the same as substitute teachers on an hourly rate?

James izzard Mason

Hi Jane,

46.85 p/h for a qualified sub teacher in a secondary school.
40.85 p/h for a casual unqualified sub teacher in a secondary school.

40.92 p/h for a (spits!) fully qualified tutor teaching BTEI for an ETB for a full 22 hours per week! ( That 40.92 includes holiday pay).
Again, this is before all your taxes/levies and you will not see a cent when term ends. Zip for Summer/Christmas/Easter/Mid -Terms. When your VTOS colleagues are on their hols, you're still working. Your hours can be cut at any time and all of those portfolios are yours to correct at the end of each term.

By the way, good luck with the interview.

James izzard Mason

Hey there fellow BTEI teachers,

First off, happy Friday!:-) Yahoo the weekend! Have a fantastic one!

Second off, we have this forum and where is everybody?!!!Lads Lassies where are you? Thank you Ace for setting this up, so c'mon folks, lets do him/her proud :-)

This is our chance. Everyone else from, INTO to ASTI to Luas drivers to Dunnes workers to Bus drivers to Nurses to Guards and Midwives has a voice.

I am so ready for our BTEI voice to be heard. It will be so much stronger if we come together as one. We all have one, I know 'cause I hear it in my own staff room! I know too that it has been subtly quashed. I know that I've been conditioned not to speak up...It's all in the little ways.

I love my job! I do not want to do anything else. I love teaching adults from all walks: redundant, unemployed, starting out, retired, disadvantaged, special needs, young, old. I love my job. All I am asking is that the Dept of Ed. respect the job that I do.

This is the first place I've seen where we can share out thoughts - I was thrilled to find it! Thank you Ace! A place where we can find strength or Share experience. A place where we can (hopefully at last!) come together and find a common voice.

We have no common voice and therein lies our weakness. Nobody knows our story.

Is there any one else out there skint after a Summer trying to make ends meat?!

Is there any one who studied hard, got the qualifications, got the job and thought 'If I stick at this, they will eventually make me permanent: recognize my commitment, recognize my contribution to the adult students in my community?'

Or how about recognize that in my centre there are more BTEI students than there are VTOS students??? How about that???
Meanwhile folks, happy Friday,

Jim

ustazjoseph

I'm glad there's a forum. All teachers should have fair play and equally good pay and conditions. I wouldn't want to see an anti vtos element here though.

ustazjoseph

Grand . Didn't understand why vtos was mentioned . Vtos numbers seem to be dropping in some areas. Perhaps a combination of improving economy and more pressure on the unemployed.

Ace head

There must be others out there....over 1200 views but only a few people saying anything.... I think this is why we are where we are...