Asking for a big raise...

punk_one82

So basically I've been accidentally emailed the job spec for open positions within my company by a recruiter, and as a result have seen that new hires at my level are being paid a hell of a lot more than I am.

My manager is already aware I'm unhappy with my current salary as I told him before I'd received the job spec. I've since gone back to him and told him that I've received the email and he's assured me that I'm due a raise that I will be happy with in the next few weeks and that I'm to just be patient.

Now, my question is - if they offer me less than what I know new hires have been offered, is it worth my while to really push for more than that figure? Can I really use that as leverage against them? It would equate to roughly a 25k AUD raise. It sounds incredibly unrealistic to me, but unless I get that I will feel seriously ripped off.

_Brian

Unless there is a union agreement in place you have no entitlement to equal pay to others don't the same job as you.
Ask and push surely, I'd be preparing a document showing your worth against these guys and beyond if possible. But you need to make the case based on your worth not theirs.

You may feel ripped off but lots of companies pay people doing the same job different wages.

Maybe it's time you got a cv together and moved job.

punk_one82

Yeah, I didn't mean from a legal standpoint but more like is getting that kind of raise achievable? Like I can make a case for being worth more than a new hire at a similar level for sure, as well as knowing the exact figure being advertised for a new hire at the same level but the figure I'll be asking to go up by is such a large amount I'm wondering if I'll be laughed at for trying to get that much at all.

kevohmsford

The best way I will get a big raise is to change jobs. I have asked my manager for a raise on the last two occasions. Nothing happened so I have been looking for something new since.

Lu Tze

Apply for the new jobs

Sebastian Dangerfield

My experience is that companies will never pay existing staff what theyll pay to new hires. I think theyre afraid that if they bump salaries, people will talk and everyone will want it.

My last two companies lost plenty of good people over money, refused to budge, then paid more for replacements. Makes no sense to me, but it seems to be how things are done.

Bear in mind that recruiters often inflate figures too. I recently contacted one about a job listed for 100k - surprise surpise "I dont know how that happened, its only 75k."

davo10

AUD? Are you in Australia?

punk_one82

kevohmsford wrote: »

The best way I will get a big raise is to change jobs. I have asked my manager for a raise on the last two occasions. Nothing happened so I have been looking for something new since.

I am 100% sure I'm getting a raise within the next 2 weeks, I'm just preparing myself for it to be lower than what I find acceptable. If it's not acceptable and they won't budge then I'll be looking for something new for sure. The only downside is they've sponsored me, but another positive is they're seriously struggling to hire new people - they've resorted to seconding whoever they can at a ridiculous cost. Hoping these things work in my favour. I've also moved up our "skills matrix" 3 levels in a year which according to my manager is rarely if ever done(usually moving 1 level if at all). These levels equate to pay bumps as well as more responsibility/trust.

punk_one82

davo10 wrote: »

AUD? Are you in Australia?

I am.

Diemos

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

My last two companies lost plenty of good people over money, refused to budge, then paid more for replacements. Makes no sense to me, but it seems to be how things are done.

This has been my experience also. Very, very strange attitude given the time and expense it takes to find someone new and train them. If you have someone good who works well within the team then you should pay them a fair market rate, or you will lose them.


OP: Do your homework, arrive to your review with the email printed out and also the current market rates. You may need to look elsewhere though. Given the sponsor thing they may feel like they have you trapped.
Good luck.

punk_one82

Diemos wrote: »

This has been my experience also. Very, very strange attitude given the time and expense it takes to find someone new and train them. If you have someone good who works well within the team then you should pay them a fair market rate, or you will lose them.


OP: Do your homework, arrive to your review with the email printed out and also the current market rates. You may need to look elsewhere though. Given the sponsor thing they may feel like they have you trapped.
Good luck.

Thanks for the advice. They definitely do not have me trapped - I've been emailed 8 times in the last week about roles relating to our company with one of our clients. I will definitely have the mail printed out, as well as a list of reasons as to why I'm worth more than a new hire at that rate. I know there are senior management who will be happy to stand up for at least a raise to same level as a new hire, but HR are notoriously difficult to deal with.

Edit: I forgot to mention that our annual reviews have already been performed, and I've received "Overall exceptional performance" for the second review in a row. I feel like my hand is pretty strong, just not sure how difficult it will be to sell such a massive raise to HR.

whomitconcerns

Your email is worth nothing, and a raise of that size you won't get op. I hired people in my last role on salaries the same as mine and higher due to me being there years. Company policy. I left before it drove me nuts...And I had 5 of those exceeds expectations reviews in a row...sorry for the potential reality op

_Brian

punk_one82 wrote: »

Yeah, I didn't mean from a legal standpoint but more like is getting that kind of raise achievable? Like I can make a case for being worth more than a new hire at a similar level for sure, as well as knowing the exact figure being advertised for a new hire at the same level but the figure I'll be asking to go up by is such a large amount I'm wondering if I'll be laughed at for trying to get that much at all.

Anything is possible. Largest pay rise I've given was 28% all in one go. Brought lad up to ~€50k

punk_one82

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Your email is worth nothing, and a raise of that size you won't get op. I hired people in my last role on salaries the same as mine and higher due to me being there years. Company policy. I left before it drove me nuts...And I had 5 of those exceeds expectations reviews in a row...sorry for the potential reality op

I'm already aware it's potential reality, hence the question and apprehension. To be brought up by 13500 euro doesn't seem impossible but maybe it is. Given that I've gone from junior to one level from senior in the space of a year and a half I think I've a pretty good case for getting close to what I want.

Avatar MIA

If you are not locked into a sponsor contract you are in a very strong position. If at HR level I would bring expected salaries at different companies and bring that email you received. Be prepared to be told that email contained errors. "The person that sent the email to the wrong person as you know and made other errors"

punk_one82

Avatar MIA wrote: »

If you are not locked into a sponsor contract you are in a very strong position. If at HR level I would bring expected salaries at different companies and bring that email you received. Be prepared to be told that email contained errors. "The person that sent the email to the wrong person as you know and made other errors"

I'm not locked in. I can find a new job and have my visa taken over by another company willing to sponsor me, and in Sydney being offered sponsorship is common. Luckily enough the email contained the salary for 3 levels for the same role, so I'm not sure the argument that all the salaries were wrong will fly. They're very much aligned to the current market rate for similar roles elsewhere, and I've had other recruiters tell me about jobs with similar rates.

Lu Tze

punk_one82 wrote: »

I'm not locked in. I can find a new job and have my visa taken over by another company willing to sponsor me, and in Sydney being offered sponsorship is common. Luckily enough the email contained the salary for 3 levels for the same role, so I'm not sure the argument that all the salaries were wrong will fly. They're very much aligned to the current market rate for similar roles elsewhere, and I've had other recruiters tell me about jobs with similar rates.

I would go looking for another job regardless. When out there I was lucky to fall in to job with a very decent employer, had two pay rises in the first year (voluntarily, they were not sought) bringing me up just short of 20k AUD from what I started on. Admittedly the industry was booming at the time, and was also promoted in that period but they also increased my charge out rate and were making more profit off me. Was due another increase just over a year after I joined, but left to go home.

Go find a good employer. If nothing else you might have a letter of offer to compare any proposed raise to.

bpmurray

This is normal - you come in and do the job but the market rises faster than your salary so new hires with no experience earn more than you. In reality you never catch up. The only way to achieve the market rate is to move somewhere else so polish up that CV.

Make a point of leaving on good terms - you may want to return in a couple of years at the then market rate.

aido79

punk_one82 wrote: »

I'm not locked in. I can find a new job and have my visa taken over by another company willing to sponsor me, and in Sydney being offered sponsorship is common. Luckily enough the email contained the salary for 3 levels for the same role, so I'm not sure the argument that all the salaries were wrong will fly. They're very much aligned to the current market rate for similar roles elsewhere, and I've had other recruiters tell me about jobs with similar rates.

Are you on a 457 visa? If so that may be why you are being underpaid and an obstacle in getting a new job.

Choc Chip

I worked in a company in Ireland that was struggling to find new hires and was paying them more than the existing staff at that level. The existing staff weren't happy.

Having said that, when promotions occurred, the existing staff were nearly all promoted in preference to the new hires, resulting in them receiving far higher salaries. Not sure if promotion could be a bargaining chip your company is planning to use, but I'd hold off until your salary increase comes through and see what it is. If it's not 25k plus, or a promotion + 25k, then I'd definitely start the hunt.

Wouldn't see any issue with a 25k increase btw, though it might depend what % of your current salary that it.

Gerry T

A recruitment agency gets 10 to 20% of first yr salary. So Def apply for the new positions and any other position in the company. Do it before your pay review. Let them see your out looking and have your cv upto date. You don't need to say your looking outside the Co but they will guess you are.
HR may come out with some old sh1t like its recognition or benefits and not money that motivates, but it's all about the Base salary.
But if the Co is a large multinational there may be restrictions on what % lift anyone's get, but even so if there's a will there's a way

Captain Flaps

Don't ask, don't get.

My girlfriend was on maternity cover being paid X, they wanted her to stay on full time and offered X + €1000, she told her recruiter she wanted more and the recruiter after a lot of back and forth was able to get x +€1500, which is a joke. Girlfriend found job specs online for roles that support her role going for X + €5000, and produced them in her main salary negotiating meeting, and the company ended up giving her a 6K raise on the back of that. You have to be ready to fight your corner and point out how much more stressful and expensive it would be to replace you.

St1mpMeister

Sorry for jumping on thread, I'm in a similar situation, as there are many jobs out there paying more for my skill-set (and in high-demand so minimal time before I secured new position).

I'd be looking for a 17% raise, and would be happy to remain in current job (or at least more willing to put up with the downsides) if I was getting this level, rather than having to go for interviews/change job location/start over on new projects etc.

My question is: can I say to current employers that I wouldn't be happy to stay on existing salary (hinting that I would have to look around)?
Or do you just ask for the salary and not mention that there are other jobs out there paying more?

If they had to replace me they'd end up having to pay the new salary anyway (not to mention having to retrain etc)

Irish_Elect_Eng

St1mpMeister wrote: »

Sorry for jumping on thread, I'm in a similar situation, as there are many jobs out there paying more for my skill-set (and in high-demand so minimal time before I secured new position).

I'd be looking for a 17% raise, and would be happy to remain in current job (or at least more willing to put up with the downsides) if I was getting this level, rather than having to go for interviews/change job location/start over on new projects etc.

My question is: can I say to current employers that I wouldn't be happy to stay on existing salary (hinting that I would have to look around)?
Or do you just ask for the salary and not mention that there are other jobs out there paying more?

If they had to replace me they'd end up having to pay the new salary anyway (not to mention having to retrain etc)

Some points:

Always make it clear to your manager what you are willing to work for.
But be realistic overvalue and you will likely be seen as a chancer and get nothing.

A good way to frame this is to refer to wanting a competitive salary.
HR have access to industry salary surveys, they will be aware of the pay range for your position.

Only every threaten to leave if you 100% intend to.
And if you 100% intend to leave don't bother making the threat, just leave.

punk_one82

Choc Chip wrote: »

I worked in a company in Ireland that was struggling to find new hires and was paying them more than the existing staff at that level. The existing staff weren't happy.

Having said that, when promotions occurred, the existing staff were nearly all promoted in preference to the new hires, resulting in them receiving far higher salaries. Not sure if promotion could be a bargaining chip your company is planning to use, but I'd hold off until your salary increase comes through and see what it is. If it's not 25k plus, or a promotion + 25k, then I'd definitely start the hunt.

Wouldn't see any issue with a 25k increase btw, though it might depend what % of your current salary that it.

I think the min I'd be hoping for is 20k which would bring me up to the same as a new starter at the same level. I think that would be relatively fair. 20k equates to around 13500 euro. Given the fact that in a year and a half I've gone from a junior to practically senior I think I should be in with a shout for getting close to that. I'll wait and see anyway. If it's nowhere near that and they won't budge then I will certainly be looking elsewhere.

Dardania

WHat's the experience level requirement (in years) for the job spec you got emailed? And how do you compare to that?

punk_one82

Experience in years isn't given - even the junior level in the email has a better base salary than what I'm on which is what's bothering me the most. Overall the junior level role would be around 10k more than my current package. I've been with my company 3 years and in this current role 1.5 years, so I feel like it's fair for me to demand at least 15-20k extra?

Dardania

You definately have reason to be bothered.

I had a simialr situation when I started my career, in a consultancy office, after doing 2 summers there while in college - I found out that they wanted to put me on a "trainee" rate for a few months, despite the fact that they had been sending me out meeting with clients etc. (which isn't normally done until you've reached a level of ability. Also, what majorly irked me was the fact that a chap that graduated the same course as me, and was a monkey, didn't have any of this trainee rate malarky. Indeed, when the recession hit, he was the first let go. Similar to what is bothering you I guess - a sense of being underappreciated.
I resolved the issue by going out to the first recruitment event I found (lucky for me, Dell were doing a drive for techs - not an area I was particualrly interested in, but I could talk myself into trouble in the area) - and I used the offer they made to leverage onto a better rate int he consultancy.

The reason I asked about experience level is, to put it bluntly, the tone of some of your posts read as either youthful (inexperienced - and I am recognising my story in yours), or indignation. Words like "demand"
I think it's more (rightoeous) indignation, but just wanted to check... as if there was an experience element involved with the new hires, it could be a criteria they could use to argue back with you about your rate.

Were I in your position (and I was a bit when in 2 jobs ago, when I found out I was being underpaid relative to my peers, despite having taken on a good deal more responsibility) I wouldn't go too hard on the money side. In lieu, I'd go for something like training, getting assigned to good projects, a better status - something like that that will be of a longer term value to both the company, and to you. Extra money will just mean you'll have a law of diminishing returns of giving more money to the taxman...
That of course asssumes that you have an adaquete salary at the moment...

It sounds like your manager is going to come back to you int he next few weeks with a better offer - let that play out, plus add in you don't need a huge amount of money but would like to advaqnce beyond the new hires, in time

Elessar

I've seen people get that kind of increase OP but in the majority you'd have to leave to a new position to get that kind of money. Unfortunately. It boggles the mind but companies don't like giving large increases to staff even if they are worth it. If you left they might counter offer, but that's desperation, and you're better off leaving at that point anyway. They'll end up replacing you if you leave with someone on market rate anyway. Madness.

I've seen it though, my company they've done a market salary survey and bumped people up to what the market rate is, and it will be done each year. I got a 30% increase this year thanks to it. Something more IT companies should do to retain staff.

punk_one82

You're right on both counts of youthful and indignation. I think it's incredibly disheartening to be on a lower salary than a newly hired junior employee while I've been explicitly told I'm expected to be moving into a senior position within the next year. It's that reason that makes me feel like I've every right to ask to at least be on the same level pay as a newly hired mid-level employee, if not slightly higher. This would equate to 20k being the minimum I'm willing to accept and even that will piss me off.

I'm going to wait to see how the payrise goes but I'm mentally preparing myself to have to go back to them and fight for what I feel like I deserve.

St1mpMeister

Elessar wrote: »

I've seen it though, my company they've done a market salary survey and bumped people up to what the market rate is, and it will be done each year. I got a 30% increase this year thanks to it. Something more IT companies should do to retain staff.

Interesting. Do you mind me asking how many staff in the company?

I'm curious because I've tended to work in smaller places (around 10-15 employees) and they will generally try to chance their arm getting away with paying the lowest rate, but would be interested to know what size of company takes steps like that to bump up salaries to the market rate (so that I know what to look for if I decide to move on).

Elessar

St1mpMeister wrote: »

Interesting. Do you mind me asking how many staff in the company?

I'm curious because I've tended to work in smaller places (around 10-15 employees) and they will generally try to chance their arm getting away with paying the lowest rate, but would be interested to know what size of company takes steps like that to bump up salaries to the market rate (so that I know what to look for if I decide to move on).

It's a fairly large company (2500+) and it's part of a wider negotiation for all workers. The IT dept is just one department of many. You're right most companies will chance their arm and pay you as little as they can (mine included!) - but at least it's a progressive step to avoid staff retention issues which play havoc with projects and systems support. I can't say if this is commonplace or not, but I suspect not!

punk_one82

Just a quick update on this. Received my raise today(finally), and it equates to 29%! Got brought up to just over what the email from the recruiter specified for my level. Can't complain with that I don't think.

Greenmachine

When your company starts to pay more money to new hires than to existing staff it may be time to hop to a new company. This is particularly true if there is any aspect of your employment you are particularly unhappy with. You could be that guy in the new place with the higher salary. Just remember to keep your lips sealed and not discuss salary with new colleagues.

Wanderer78

Greenmachine wrote:

When your company starts to pay more money to new hires than to existing staff it may be time to hop to a new company. This is particularly true if there is any aspect of your employment you are particularly unhappy with. You could be that guy in the new place with the higher salary. Just remember to keep your lips sealed and not discuss salary with new colleagues.

I've always found this pay secrecy thing odd in Ireland, it's not like that in other countries so I believe. More transparency in relation to pay may actually benefit some workers.

screamer

Greenmachine wrote: »

When your company starts to pay more money to new hires than to existing staff it may be time to hop to a new company. This is particularly true if there is any aspect of your employment you are particularly unhappy with. You could be that guy in the new place with the higher salary. Just remember to keep your lips sealed and not discuss salary with new colleagues.

It's pretty common and dictated by what the current market rates are and availability of potential staff. Generally existing staff are unlikely to leave but to attract new employees they have to pay. TBH OP for existing staff getting large pay rises be prepared to see your pay stuck at that level for a while unless you take on more responsibility. It's the general way of large corporates unfortunately.

daheff

Companies operate in this manner in the same way that utility companies do. they dont offer the best deals to existing customers (employees) as it would cost a lot of money. they rely on apathy of customers and customers not wanting to change to a new provider (employer -new location/commute/job tasks/colleagues).

the turnover in a company is also a desired aspect for companies as it brings in new blood/ideas.


so what i mean is if your company is stiffing you for salary it means they dont care about you...only their bottom line. Once you understand that it becomes a lot easier to detach yourself from them and move on with your eyes open a little bit wider and demand a higher salary in the next job.

Greenmachine

screamer wrote: »

It's pretty common and dictated by what the current market rates are and availability of potential staff. Generally existing staff are unlikely to leave but to attract new employees they have to pay. TBH OP for existing staff getting large pay rises be prepared to see your pay stuck at that level for a while unless you take on more responsibility. It's the general way of large corporates unfortunately.

Yes but a decent company will have increased your salary inline with performance. If someone coming in the door wet behind the ears is starting on more than an experienced staff member there is an issue.

screamer

Greenmachine wrote: »

Yes but a decent company will have increased your salary inline with performance. If someone coming in the door wet behind the ears is starting on more than an experienced staff member there is an issue.

Oh yes they will but big increases only go to top performers the creme de la creme they don't want to lose. If you're just an average employee doing your job then it's highly likely new hires will be offered more to attract them in. That's the way it is. As a wise person once told me you get paid in your current job for what you did in your previous job. In other words to get more money for doing your job you must be prepared to move companies unless of course you're in the public sector.

punk_one82

I'm definitely not against moving job and it's something I plan on doing soon. Currently upskilling so I can move to a different area of the same industry. Will try get a job that I actually really want once I have the skills/portfolio to do so. Overall a pretty good outcome though. I've been told there's more where it came from as long as I keep on the same trajectory, so even if I'm here for another year it looks fairly positive. I'd be one of the next in line to move to a senior role but probably not quite there yet as pretty young/inexperienced.