License Not Granted

goz83

A friend of mine has just been refused a license for a 22 bolt action rifle. I'm surprised by this. He bought the rifle, has it at the range, did the comp course and all the rest. He said that the refusal mentioned dishonesty on the application. He said he doesn't know what they are talking about and is screaming discrimination.....as he comes from a very undesirable area of Dublin. Needless to say, he is pretty annoyed. I know he has had a few addresses over the last few years and if he missed any of them, would that be grounds for refusal? He won't know anything until he gets to speak to the FO, which is next week, but has already resorted to selling his gear....a bit premature imo. Appealing in the courts is not on the radar, but does he have any other option here?

Cass

goz83 wrote: »

.......... He said that the refusal mentioned dishonesty on the application. He said he doesn't know what they are talking about and is screaming discrimination.....as he comes from a very undesirable area of Dublin..........

Firstly, discrimination doesn't apply. Hard to sell it as a reason when it's only one person. If it was because of where he lived they'd simply demand a higher level of security or for the gun to be stored on the range.

Secondly, dishonesty would not cover forgetting an address. I've lived in five different addresses and when i apply i include the last one only. In some cases, if the time between addresses is short (say a year) include a couple.

Dishonesty, to me, means he did not declare something relevant to his application/character. An offense, or something similar, that he has that was not declared on section 2.4 "Previous History". Some people think an offense from when they were a kid (say 16 or over) does not count as it's 5, 8, 12, 15+ years ago. It does. Plus it's down to the Super to decide if its relevant to your application not for the applicant to decide if it's worth divulging. Trust they usually know and the application is a way to judge whether someone gives over the info they already know about.

Three options:

1. Court - As you've said this is a non runner we'll move on.
2. Meeting - Make an appointment with the Super and discuss what exactly is the problem. This is only necessary if your friend has no previous convictions/cautions/offense. If he has and he did not declare it then there is the problem. If not then find out what the problem is. Sometimes, rarely, mistakes can happen so the meeting will allow you to make sure the application is yours and all details are correct.
3. Acceptance - He can accept the ruling, use the rifle under the range authorisation at the range only, and apply again later on.

Luckysasha

Why is he selling the gun now? As you know it can be used and stored at the range without a license. Would he not be happy enough to shoot at the range for a while and then try reapplying for his license at least he would have a couple of months range time under his belt that might stand to him

goz83

I don't think it has anything to do with the area he lives either. Over the years, he has had a couple of pretty minor run ins with the law. I know he has had a couple of small enough fines for stuff like driving with a mobile phone in hand. A couple of those I believe went unpaid. It's a bit hard to know the truth, because sometimes the facts get mixed up with fantasy. I reckon a meeting with the super is a much better idea than throwing all the toys out of the pram. I can definitely understand being frustrated....I would be too, but I wouldn't just walk away either.

rsole1

Luckysasha wrote: »

Why is he selling the gun now? As you know it can be used and stored at the range without a license. Would he not be happy enough to shoot at the range for a while and then try reapplying for his license at least he would have a couple of months range time under his belt that might stand to him

What can be stored and used at the range? Surely someone who has not / cannot get a fac be allowed to use the range unaccompanied?

Cass

rsole1 wrote: »

What can be stored and used at the range?

As said above:

Cass wrote: »

Three options:

1. Court - As you've said this is a non runner we'll move on.
2. Meeting - Make an appointment with the Super and discuss what exactly is the problem. This is only necessary if your friend has no previous convictions/cautions/offense. If he has and he did not declare it then there is the problem. If not then find out what the problem is. Sometimes, rarely, mistakes can happen so the meeting will allow you to make sure the application is yours and all details are correct.
3. Acceptance - He can accept the ruling, use the rifle under the range authorisation at the range only, and apply again later on.

He can use the rifle on the range under section 2(4)(d). A person, once a member of a range, can use a firearm (unrestricted) on the range once it is only on the range and they cannot bring the firearm or ammo home.

Surely someone who has not / cannot get a fac be allowed to use the range unaccompanied?

If a novice it must be done under supervision, but if shown to be competent they can do so unsupervised. A license allows you possess and own a firearm and appropriate ammunition.

Section 2(4)(d) above allows ranges to introduce new people to different sports, and to partake in them without the need for expensive firearms, etc. It is an essential tool to keep new people coming into the various sports.

Bad_alibi

rsole1 wrote: »

What can be stored and used at the range? Surely someone who has not / cannot get a fac be allowed to use the range unaccompanied?

He wouldn't be unaccompanied at the range he could only shoot when a range officer was present.

dodderangler

Does he have a warrant or anything?? My FO rang me when I applied for my licence for shotgun years ago just to say I still had a warrant out for me. He couldn't give it to me until it was sorted.

barnaman

dodderangler wrote: »

Does he have a warrant or anything?? My FO rang me when I applied for my licence for shotgun years ago just to say I still had a warrant out for me. He couldn't give it to me until it was sorted.

Now Dodder you sure that Dog the Bounty Hunter is not after you!?

Sounds like the OPs mate had convictions and did not declare them.

Luckysasha

Just to clarify please. Can the guy who was refused the license for the rifle still own the rifle and keep it at a range. Providing he joins the range, pays his insurance, pays for storage facilities etc etc can he then shoot away using his own rifle without a license.

Bad_alibi

Luckysasha wrote: »

Just to clarify please. Can the guy who was refused the license for the rifle still own the rifle and keep it at a range. Providing he joins the range, pays his insurance, pays for storage facilities etc etc can he then shoot away using his own rifle without a license.

Correct

Luckysasha

Thank you Bad_Alibi. Would that senario help your buddy out Goz83

goz83

Luckysasha wrote: »

Thank you Bad_Alibi. Would that senario help your buddy out Goz83

He is well aware that he can shoot at the range. I invited him to the range today when I was planning to go. He wasn't interested. I suppose everyone reacts differently to set backs. Some people make calls and send emails to try resolve the issue, while other people do nothing about it.

There have been a few minor things over the years, but nothing that I know of that was serious. He's just a stubborn a$$ and I am sure he could resolve this if he put his head to it. I'm a bit disgusted, because I was looking forward to doing a bit of hunting with him.

Luckysasha

What's the chances of him ever getting a license now. Surely he will have to tick the box on the Fca1 form that states "he has previously been refused a licence". Would it be any different if he applied for a shotgun license instead do you think.

Cass

Luckysasha wrote: »

Just to clarify please. Can the guy who was refused the license for the rifle still own the rifle and keep it at a range. Providing he joins the range, pays his insurance, pays for storage facilities etc etc can he then shoot away using his own rifle without a license.

As i said in my first post:

Cass wrote: »

Three options:

1. Court - As you've said this is a non runner we'll move on.
2. Meeting - Make an appointment with the Super and discuss what exactly is the problem. This is only necessary if your friend has no previous convictions/cautions/offense. If he has and he did not declare it then there is the problem. If not then find out what the problem is. Sometimes, rarely, mistakes can happen so the meeting will allow you to make sure the application is yours and all details are correct.
3. Acceptance - He can accept the ruling, use the rifle under the range authorisation at the range only, and apply again later on.

goz83 wrote: »

There have been a few minor things over the years, but nothing that I know of that was serious.

Did he declare all of them? As i said above it's not his decision on which ones he includes, if any. They ask you this because they already know and want to see how you answer. It's an honesty test as such.

He's just a stubborn a$$ and I am sure he could resolve this if he put his head to it.

Throwing the dummy out of the pram is always a way to go. However i guarantee you what way that route will end.

With all due respect, and a degree of condolence, for your mate it seems to be a situation either partially or fully of his own making. The Gardaí are under no obligation to extract the information from any applicant. If you hit an obstacle, you having only gone through the process know how annoying it can be, and immediately throw in the towel then perhaps it's not the thing for you (your mate). It won't be the only time he, or any person, will face such problems when it comes to firearms.

goz83

He told me that he filled in the FCA1 with the FO present. I couldn't say if he declared everything, but can only assume he didn't and missed something, though I doubt it would have been intentional, considering his (and my) local station as the district HQ.

In a way, it's comical. I have always had an interest in shooting, but never thought I would actually own a gun (let alone 2). It was him saying that he was going for a license that gave me a kick to do it too. I'm now shooting as often as I can at the range and on the permission I have, while he is left holding a refusal letter.

Cass

goz83 wrote: »

He told me that he filled in the FCA1 with the FO present.

That was a mistake. not to kick a lad when he is down but never let an FO tell you what you should or should not do, fill in, include, etc. Go to a range. Even if you're not a member always go to a range, club or someone that has been through the process that can help. Most any one of these would gladly help.

Also the FO will not be held responsible in any way as it's the applicant's responsibility to read, understand, fill in and sign the form.

I couldn't say if he declared everything, but can only assume he didn't and missed something, though I doubt it would have been intentional, considering his (and my) local station as the district HQ.

No one is implying it was intentional, and we won't speculate as to the motives for why he filled it in the way it was done. However something was missed, obviously, and it's come back to bite him.

I'm now shooting as often as I can at the range and on the permission I have, while he is left holding a refusal letter.

He still has options as outlined above. The only thing that'll stop him shooting now is himself.

Try approach him again when he calms down to stay with it, but also have a word. If he doesn't react well to set backs, as said above, perhaps he should consider something else as he will face more in the future.

PSXDupe

As Cass mentioned never assume the FO is the best person to help with completing the application.

When I applied for my first licence I got assistance from the training guy at the range, also asked a couple of noob questions around here.

Typed up a cover letter, a list of addresses etc etc, and I've used the same details for all other applications since then, never an issue.

Do be honest, if he is planning on throwing in the towel at the first hurdle then maybe this is not the sport for him.

I know from experience with my local FO, its best to go speak with them, just to get an understanding of their concerns and put theirs minds are rest.

From day one I've always had a good safe for my firearms, bolts and ammo stored in a seperate safe and the house alarm and monitored.

The guards want to ensure the decision they make is the correct one.

extremetaz

Without sporting permissions he couldn't use the rifle outside of the range in any case, so if he has the facility to store and use it there, he really shouldn't be discouraged.

Worst case scenario, as Cass said, accept the descision, use the rifle at the range for the next while and apply again in the future with experience and character references from the range to back up the application.

Loosing the head and throwing the toys out of the pram is pretty much exactly the oppisite to the sort of mentality that they're looking for in licenced firearms holders though, so he'd definitely do well to learn how to cool the jets a little.

dazed+confused

goz83 wrote: »

He told me that he filled in the FCA1 with the FO present. I couldn't say if he declared everything.

goz83 wrote: »

but can only assume he didn't and missed something, though I doubt it would have been intentional.

Are you assuming a lot? It really seems likely that there are more run ins or they were more serious than he's letting on. This would also explain why he is reluctant to reapply.

goz83

dazed+confused wrote: »

Are you assuming a lot? It really seems likely that there are more run ins or they were more serious than he's letting on. This would also explain why he is reluctant to reapply.

Now look who's making assumptions. :pac:

Suffice to say that this friend has always been one to colourise stories and there is always a bit of drama going on. So, knowing truth from fantasy is not always straight forward. I know he's never (in the 16 or so years I have known him) been involved in anything more serious than holding a phone while driving and maybe not paying a fine).

His reluctance to do anything about this is a mixture of stubborn and pride, both of which have always been his biggest problems imo.

Steve012

dodderangler wrote: »

Does he have a warrant or anything?? My FO rang me when I applied for my licence for shotgun years ago just to say I still had a warrant out for me. He couldn't give it to me until it was sorted.

Bad bhoy