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ATH First Round Match #8 Surewhywouldntya vs Cheese Wagstaff

  • 22-07-2016 2:52pm
    Registered Users Posts: 20,753 ✭✭✭✭

    The final bout of the round gives your man from The Wire (Cheese) vs the best reason to do anything in Ireland. Heres the rules before your match guys :

    I will post a topic and you have to post your response including why you made that choice within a given time limit (before the next match is scheduled to begin), take care while making your responses however as the other contestant can counter your arguement i.e pointing out possible flaws in what youve said.

    *you can only counter an arguement two times so make sure your point is worth making. If someone's defense of their arguement isnt good it will count against them.

    *You can use the same answer as your opponent if you wish i.e you agree with their choice however its hard to win a debate when your making the same points someone has already made

    see the OP of the main thread for further details or if any examples are needed check out previous years competitions.

    Q8 : HHH asks you to repackage a member of the WWE roster with a new gimmick, who do you choose and what Gimmick would you choose for them?

    After your first post, why would your choice be better than your opponents?

    Good luck fellas

    Who should win..... 8 votes

    Bad Boy Apollo Crews ( SWWY)
    0% 0 votes
    Gofl Ziggler (Cheese Wagstaff)
    100% 8 votes


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,722 ✭✭✭SureYWouldntYa

    This man isn’t being repackaged, he’s being packaged for the first time really. Apollo Crews has done little of note since coming up from NXT, mainly because he’s been given very little to do. This is a guy who could do damn near anything, and now he will.

    Since he’s come up, he’s just been that smiley athletic guy beating people he’s beaten before like Tyler Breeze, and joke acts like the Social Outcasts. He couldn’t get past Y2J in MITB qualifying though, backstage rumours said he was starstruck coming up against Jericho and it showed. Apollo has been showing signs of improvement since though, overcoming Sheamus at MITB. But Apollo hasn’t been on TV much since, he hasn’t really pushed management to make him a cornerstone of the business. In fact, Apollo despite being one of the most gifted athletes in WWE, Apollo was drafted 45th in the draft. 45TH, after the likes of the Golden Truth and The Ascension, glorified jobbers.

    Apollo knows he can push to the top, he outperforms damn near everyone in the gym, but is being nice to everyone getting him where he knows he can go? Baron Corbin doesn’t care what people think of him, and he was drafted live on Raw at 19th and even got the chance to compete at Wrestlemania while Corbin was backstage, saying he was happy just to be there.
    John Cena is facing AJ Styles in a Lumberjack match. The lumberjacks are there to ensure all the action takes place in the ring, as it should be with Styles and Cena. It’s the usual types who are the lumberjacks, Mark Henry, The Ascension, Tyler Breeze, all glorified jobbers. With Apollo Crews there too, who’s a nobody and a jobber right? AJ and Cena have a match of the year candidate, with AJ coming out on top. Meltzer almost gave it 5 stars it was that good. It’s common knowledge that Cena is heading away after Summerslam to shoot a movie. He gets a standing ovation after the match, in the ring on his own after Styles leaves. It’s a good crowd, damn near all of them are cheering for Cena despite it being Cena. Apollo notes he doesn’t get cheered as much as this, despite being a good guy like Cena. Apollo decides to attack Cena as he’s heading up the ramp. Apollo beats Cena to a pulp, and as he’s holding him up Apollo wants to hurt him in the worst way possible, his current finishing move is a standing splash ffs. He puts him up on his shoulders, and gives him an attitude adjustment, but it’s far more vicious than Cena normally does it, the ring damn near shakes when Apollo delivers what is now known as “The Repackage”. Cena is now out of action, with credit now being given to Apollo Crews.

    Apollo explains his actions with simple words on the following Smackdown, “his time is up, my time is now”. Apollo just says he’s sick of getting nowhere, he got nowhere in NXT and the same on the main roster when he arrived. He’s able to beat anyone in the ring when he puts his mind to it, and he’s going to stop focusing on being liked and focusing on winnings. He doesn’t want to be a bad guy, but he’s going to focus on him for mow. He’s now very powerful in the ring, reminding people now of Brock Lesnar or Batista in the ring. Despite going on to beat Kane at the September PPV, and Alberto Del Rio and the October PPV, 2 former multi time world champions, Apollo doesn’t even get on the Smackdown team for Survivor Series. Apollo said he was just putting his head down and focusing, but neither Daniel Bryan or Shane McMahon want him on their team because to put it simply nobody cares about Apollo. This leads to Apollo beating up Shane O Mac backstage, and Apollo has another change of character. As well as beating up people, he’s now being way over the top in the ring, calling out what he’s doing as he does it, just being ridiculous almost in a New Day sort of way but for the sake of it rather than actually being fun like The New Day. Apollo lands up at the Rumble as one of the favourites, who can outmove Apollo Crews. John Cena makes a surprise return at the Rumble, eliminating Apollo to gain redemption for being put out of action for 5 months by Apollo. Apollo in turn eliminates Cena, literally throwing him out of the ring. Apollo injures Cena again, with Cena being ruled out for 6-8 weeks now with a broken hand. Cena asks Daniel Bryan in a backstage segment for a match against Apollo at Wrestlemania 33, he’ll be back just in time for that.
    The match is built up almost solely by Apollo, beating local jobbers and WWE jobbers on tv. Cena only turns up the week before Mania, just saying why. Why Apollo, you were a nice guy, everyone liked you, why would you turn on Cena and the people and just look out for himself, Cena says you can get through anything with hustle loyalty respect. Apollo comes out and reminds Cena he wasn’t always so nice, there was a time he used to rap about everything and respected nobody. That’s how he got noticed, after being a bit nice at the start. All that really matters is what happens in the ring, Apollo says, nobody becomes a legend without winning. Their match is in the upper midcard, it is John Cena after all. Apollo goes on to beat Cena in a hard fought match. Cena tries to shake his hand after the match, “this isn’t you, you’re better than this”. Apollo kicks him down low, hits The Repackage just shaking his head.

    After Mania you’ve now got someone set for the main event of Smackdown, Apollo’s change of attitude means he doesn’t care what you think. He’s even moved on from trying to be ridiculous in the ring, he’s just getting the job done. He’s the guy to fight the real faces like AJ Styles and Shinsuke Nakamura for the title. You’ve got to have a guy like Apollo up there, no matter what he is you can’t help but admire him in the ring. Just let him loose and he’s the perfect foil, and there can more down the line, but for now he’s just focusing on number 1, instead of number 45.

  • Registered Users Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Cheese Wagstaff

    My repackaging sees a guy who has gone quite stale getting the shot in the arm that he possibly does or does not deserve.

    I am choosing Dolph Ziggler, and he is going to be a golfer.

    In his introduction, he can start by saying that he is "Nicholas Nemeth", and that he is here to spread the word of golf to everybody who wishes to shine on their own. This is followed by excluding the fans, criticising their sheep/herd-like mentality, cheering and booing whoever is popular at that particular moment in time. He goes on to discuss how tuning into the world of golf caused him to remember that he is the harness of his own talent, and that nobody is going to hold him back any longer.

    Nicholas will be flanked by his "caddy", "Curtis Hawkley" (Curt Hawkins), as they aim to espouse the virtues of the world's greatest and most noble game, and how it has made them much better than YOU. They will appear in sweater vests, paddy hats and trousers. They will go to the ring in a golf cart. They will use backstage as their own driving range, yelling FORE! and annoying other wrestlers in the process with other such idiosyncrasies. They will get up everybody's noses. There'll even be a classic theme used for their new personas:

    The most important part of the repackage however: Nicholas starts winning. And he starts winning, by any means necessary. On his first night of the repackage, things are not going his way until after a distraction, where he strikes his opponent with a golf club for the 1-2-3. His matches continue in this vein, with something underhanded occurring in order for the noble golfer to show how much better than everyone he truly is. This can branch out in a number of ways (Curtis distracts the ref with putting techniques outside the ring, Nicholas punches people with golf balls/tees concealed in his fist, winning via feet on the ropes kept on by a golf club etc.), and can also crossover to an audience segment...the "Nicholas Nemeth Putting Challenge", whereby Nicholas has a contest with an audience member, only to rag on them whether he wins or loses. He is obnoxious, self-centred and oblivious, and whether in or out of the ring, when things are not going his way, his violent streak comes to the forest to bring it back to normal.

    With steady progression of this, Nicholas could potentially move into the Smackdown main event as a detestable yet comedic heel, being a good foil for Dean Ambrose (The Lunatic vs The Refined), or as a long running upper mid card champ who gets under everyone's skin, avoiding his comeuppance by the skin of his teeth each time. The gimmick would be a lot of fun, with nobody being able to say that it would be boring. It gets Dolph in a focused direction and it ultimately freshens up the competition on Smackdown.

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,722 ✭✭✭SureYWouldntYa

    Dolph Ziggler? Jaysus I don't know about you but that's not someone who I'd care to see repackaged, nevermind going back to his golfer roots from the days of Chavo.

    He's had his day in the sun, and sure you could say at the moment he's doing nothing of note, and really there's a reason. He's got a reputation for being good in the ring, when really all he is good at is selling. And that's probably the level he should be at, there's lots of talent far more deserving as a repackaging than Dolph/Nick.

    Also I can see a golf type gimmick coming out to crickets, it's not a big sport amongst the American audience that usually watches Raw, and would be derided by the IWC too. Him going around in a kart deriding people is more like something a lower card jobber would do before getting his ass whooped.

    He wouldn't have a future doing this, it might have good backing to begin with but people wouldn't be long turning on it and it would be dropped within a couple of weeks, much like the debuts of people like Bo Dallas and Adam Rose.

    With Apollo Crews you're getting somebody new, and somebody who can do things nobody else can. He's an act people are high on within the company and within the wider wrestling community. Dolph is 7 years older too, and plenty of miles on the clock too for being such a hard seller.

    I think everyone would be happy to see a repackage and a push for Apollo Crews, and keeping him a heel allows people with more natural charisma to be the faces at the top, as I said before. He's destined for the top at some stage, and an act like Dolph taking up time with segments making fun of people who can't play golf would hold back real wrestling talent.

    Dolph isn't fresh, and fair enough a repackage could "refresh" him, but I think he's too far down the drain to recover nevermind push.

  • Registered Users Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Cheese Wagstaff

    It isn't too long ago that Dolph was one of the saviours of the IWC, a guy who had a connection with the fans and was massively over after the famous Survivor Series match that briefly ended the Authority. The only thing that has changed since then is the booking, whereby meaningless feud after meaningless feud has seen his support waning. I should have perhaps explained the shtick a little bit more, but there wouldn't be any deriding of other superstars for not playing golf. It would simply be a trope used to show an air of superiority, with the comedic elements mentioned above being sprinkled in, in order to portray quite a nuanced character. This would be the opportunity to show that the original 'Kerwin White' gimmick did in fact have legs (In my opinion, Chavo would have made a fantastic job of it had it been given the proper time and effort), and Dolph has shown that he has the various skillsets to make it work. He has in-ring ability, he is more than serviceable on the mic, he can connect with the fans (let us not forget that he was an incredible fresh and entertaining heel who fans couldn't wait to cheer due to his being so entertaining), and his interest in comedy could only feed into the role (granted, he may not be a comedic genius, but we are not looking for a Bill Hicks or a Richard Prior here). Overall there is evidence to show that when booked right, Dolph was popular, and nothing to suggest that if this was done again, that he would not be again.

    So, onto your choice of Apollo Crews. A fair choice no doubt, but the key to the question is the actual repackaging and what gimmicks and tropes you choose for them. You have chosen to bring him to the fore by attacking John Cena. History would suggest that doing this is not the way to launch a WWE superstar's career to the next level (Bray Wyatt, how you doin'?). Not only is this expected to launch Crews, but it is anticipated that doing this would turn him heel? In today's world, it would elicit a mixed reaction if not mostly cheers. In addition, Crews copies his finisher and taunts him with his own catchphrases? This is less of a repackaging, and more of a copycat operation. I just don't see how this is supposed to make him stand out, essentially copying the biggest star wrestling has ever seen.

    So, the repackaging of Crews is suspect to say the least, now onto how he is being booked. So not only does he jump from barely beating Sheamus, and not being able to beat Jericho to absolutely decimating John Cena, he now destroys everybody he faces. He beats Orton, he beats Del Rio, and only for Cena returning, he seems nigh on untouchable in the Royal Rumble. This is a good 18 month arc for Crews....oh wait? This is within 6 months. What you have done is given Crews the Roman Reigns push, only in far less time. If fans and the IWC would hate a former World champion becoming a cocky golfer as you say, then I struggle to think how they would react to a still-green NXT graduate suddenly decimating everyone around him.

    And then, the grandaddy of them all. Wrestlemania. You have the still-green NXT graduate defeat John Cena at Wrestlemania. If everything before this was unrealistic, then this is the cherry on top. John Cena has fought 12 times at Wrestlemania, and has a record of 9-3. Of those three defeats, one was in a triple threat where he was not involved in the decision. The other two, by The Miz & The Rock. Given that the Miz's victory was as a direct result of Dwayne's interference (therefore a screwy finish), it is not outrageous to say that the only person who has caused Cena to suffer defeat on the biggest stage is one of the most iconic wrestlers that WWE has ever produced. I don't think that this can be understated. You are trying to give Apollo Crews, who as it stands remains incredibly unproven, a push that puts him on par with The Rock in the space of 12 months. I don't see it, I don't think it's realistic and I think that a lot of WWE fans will come to this conclusion aswell.

    Believe it or not, there are very few wrestlers that would benefit from being repackaged for various reasons. I actually think that most gimmicks are quite spot on, while there sadly are wrestlers that cannot be saved as far as a new direction goes (The Ascension, how you doin'?). With Dolph Ziggler, you have a proven commodity who can connect with the fans, and elicit a reaction. I think if you make him an obnoxious yet funny heel, you will see an upturn in his fortunes that can benefit the company. Apollo Crews has a long way to go before people will accept him as a world beater, and it won't happen with the tropes or timeline that you have given him.

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,722 ✭✭✭SureYWouldntYa

    Dolph was never first choice to win at Survivor Series 2014, it was supposed to be Roman Reigns before he got injured.

    Sure he has gotten big support from the IWC in the past, but look at the roster from 3/4 years ago. He was the one of the possible best of a bad bunch, nowadays you've got people like Zayn / Balor / Cesaro / Owens / Styles / Ambrose / Rollins who as well as being higher up in popularity with the IWC are higher up with management. Then you've got the likes of Neville / Rusev / Corbin / Crews who Ziggler is at a similar level to currently, all have an upward trajectory whereas Ziggler is on the down for a couple of years.

    I just think no matter the gimmick, unless it's something big and groundbreaking, as well as new, Ziggler won't be given the chance and will off tv within a month as a golfer. There's better things for us to watch, and for WWE to give us.

    Crews attacked Cena after a match, so him going from struggling to beat Sheamus to doing this makes sense in that it's after the match and Cena is tired. He won't necessarily get booed, he's getting beaten up in a vicious way, did anyone cheer when Nexus did it?

    Roman Reigns' push was in way less time, he was missing for several months after Summerslam so it was rushed in that way. As well as doing it over what i consider a fair time, he isn't fighting for the title at the September ppv is he, now that would be fast.

    He's fighting Cena, it's not main event level, it's in the midcard. And while he might be green in terms of a wwe character, it would be mad to call him him green as a wrestler. Cena fought Rusev at 31 and Rusev had a similar time on the main roster as Apollo will have had in my narrative, was anybody saying it was too soon for him? And while you can say Cena was expected to win going to into that match, a win for Rusev could have made him. Could have made Bray Wyatt the year before if WWE were brave enough. Cena's near the stage where it's time to put over new talent, and Apollo Crews would certainly be that. And with regards to him copying Cena by using his finishing move and taunts, I suppose you could say Stone Cold is a copy of Jake the Snake, sometimes imitation is the best tool.

    And to say something I wouldn't have been able to a couple of days ago, is anyone saying Finn Balor heading to the top too soon? Are people not starting to think he may be a "world beater" by beating a "world beater" in Reigns? To be the man you got to beat the man, and Cena is the man. Kevin Owens uses his beating of Cena to this day, gives him some legitimacy. That same legitimacy will also be on Apollo Crews, albeit on a grander scale so a greater reward too. There's 2 main event scenes in WWE now, new people will have to be pushed, Apollo is a guy who fits.

    It's a repackage of the old versus a repackaging of the future. There's others like Ziggler near the top, Rollins is a top seller as would be Styles. Ziggler doesn't have a niche anymore, if wrestlers were silhouettes he'd blend in with the crowd. Nobody with a look like Crews does what he does. Turning him heel as his first big move in WWE gives him a simple narrative, with simple motivations doing awesome things. A golfer is going back to the wacky and crappy days of the early 90's, and that's how Dolph would be known and remembered.

    So to end, it's more of the same with a different caddy and polo shirt, or somebody destined for the top actually getting to the top. Elite potential, or something that will go on a WWE countdown of infamous gimmicks.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Cheese Wagstaff

    I think it is well documented at this stage that it was intended to be Reigns who would end the Authority at SS. Guess what though? He was injured, so it was given to Ziggler. And guess what also? When it happened, his popularity went through the roof. Despite Dolph Ziggler being hampered prior to this moment and losing momentum, as soon as a booking decision went in his favour, he was back to being over with the crowd again. He is a guy that people want to be invested in, and this is a case in point to prove this.

    In fact, if we go back to Tuesday night to the most recent episode of Smackdown, we saw Ziggler winning a six-pack challenge to become number one contender to Dean Ambrose's WWE Title (in fact, I do believe that this was a rivalry I advised would be a good fit in my first post). Upon Ziggler winning, the fans erupted with cheers. He was celebrating with fans in the front row who all looked visibly thrilled. This does not seem like the reaction that would be given to somebody who is 'stale', who is 'too far gone to be relevant again', who is 'on a downward trajectory for the last few years'. Your assertion that Dolph cannot be worthwhile again is very far wide of the mark. In fact, the reactions to Crews winning the 6th spot in comparison were quite tame it must be said.

    Now look at this from the angle that Dolph would be a heel, a persona that he has experience of before, and playing the type of character that fans found very entertaining before. Suddenly, your main event with Ambrose (or feud with whichever face you want) becomes more interesting, and has the scope to draw in the fans in a multi-faceted way (violence, comedy, outlandishness aka some of the key concepts of wrestling).

    When the Nexus destroyed John Cena, it was unprecedented and unpredictable and has been acknowledged as so. It was also a 7 on 1 assault, which is very different to one guy destroying Cena. One guy who recently could not beat Sheamus outside of a roll up. The jump in logic is just too great for this to be believable.

    You can dress it up whatever way you want, John Cena will never be a midcard act. And even if he is (which he isn't), then what rub can Crews possibly get from beating him at Wrestlemania and decimating him in the run up to the fight? You can't have it both ways. Either he is the main man that sees great reward for toppling or he is a midcard act and therefore not the main man with nothing to be gained from beating. The fact of the matter is that John Cena is still the standard bearer of WWE, and in order to get a rub from him, you have to be worth it. Can somebody prove to be worth it within 12 months? It's incredibly difficult without it looking forced. The repackaging and push that you are giving Crews seems forced. Again, the jump here is too great to be believable, and if it was pursued it would result in another Bobby Lashley; athletically gifted but ultimately just forced on people too much and too soon.

    I don't think you can honestly compare Apollo Crews to Finn Balor. Finn spent over 2 years in NXT as a star of the brand, whereas Apollo was fast tracked within 11 months despite doing nothing of note while down there. Also, Finn is one of the most famous and decorated professional wrestlers of the modern era. While Crews has definitely worked hard to get where he is, he is nowhere near what Finn has done across the globe. Finn is a better performer presently, is more charismatic, and most importantly he connects with the fans. It is not a good example to compare Crews to Balor when talking about people who deserve to be pushed.

    Dolph Ziggler is a guy who is multi-talented. Finally once more, he is being rewarded for being the workhorse and entertainer that he is in the ring. As a cocky heel who cheats to win and riles up the audience, he could reach the top once again, in a similar vein to how he did before. By doing this gradually, you could make him important again. Before Crews can become important, he needs to learn the ropes. He can do this over a long period of time, taking part in well built feuds and honing his craft inside and outside the ring. Having him beat the franchise star at Wrestlemania within 12 months is not only a nonsensical booking decision, but it is something that fans would see through right away.

    As you said, Crews has potential. However, potential has to be nurtured and allowed to develop organically. At the end of the day, potential is just potential. If it isn't harnessed, then it becomes wasted. Sadly, putting Crews on your path would result in this happening.

    With Dolph, you again have a former World champion who is proven in and out of the ring, who only needs a good opportunity to recapture his mojo. A suitably outlandish gimmick that allows him to get heat, and have fun with the crowd would only see his stock rise back to where it should be. Overall, I think that it allows for better progression to the top.

  • Registered Users Posts: 20,753 ✭✭✭✭beakerjoe

    Poll added