2016 King George VI & QE Stakes

tryfix

A race that used to be the highlight of the summer and is now not quite a shadow of its former self but getting there. Last year's renewal was of poor quality which with the soft ground combined to let the Gp 2 standard Postponed win his first Gp 1 race.

On last year's form Postponed would be very beatable but that horse has since come on hugely. He's been very impressive this year and is with a trainer who's well able to improve horses.

At a career high OR of 124 Postponed is still beatable as were the likes of St Nicholas Abbey beaten in the race off OR 124 as was Nathaniel off 126 when he was bidding for a 2nd win and Workforce managed to get beaten twice in the race off an OR of 128.

Is there anything in the race to beat Postponed?

akelly02

There actually isnt anything to get him off the bridle.

should be 2/7 in my book

tryfix

akelly02 wrote: »

There actually isnt anything to get him off the bridle.

should be 2/7 in my book

Postponed (1/2)in
Dartmouth (11/2)in
Highland Reel (7)
Erupt (10)in
Wings Of Desire (10)
Sir Isaac Newton (33)
Western Hymn (33)
Second Step (50)out
Shogun (66)
Ajman Bridge (100)


It's not a kind race for older horses trying to win 2 in a row.


I see Wings Of Desire is still in and at 10/1 could be good value to avenge his Brother Eagle Top's narrow defeat at the hands of Postponed in last year's race.

Our old buddy Shogun will surely tempt some of the boardsies again with hopefully some good ground to run on.

Peintre Celebre

I hope that's hyperbole kelly about him being a 2/7 shot. I'm yet to be fully convinced by Postponed and as Arc fav he should win this convincingly but we'll see. Any of O'Brien's that go globetrotting aren't going to be the best he has. Highland Reel is tough and reliable but it would be a disappointing King George if he were good enough, mind you I'd say that about any of them really. Erupt the most likely to trouble Postponed I think and he could be a live outsider for the Arc

kfallon

Take out Postponed and this is a G3 contest. Too many 'Autumn targets' about now that most good horses are having a break after the big Ascot meeting or Irish Derby so they avoid this race.

Postponed wins this easy, it's a very poor crop of older horses around at the minute.

Wicklow Brave

I'll try Wings of Desire at the prices. His Dante run was impressive and I'd be willing to forgive his Epsom run. Perhaps Epsom is as good as he is but I'm willing to take the chance it isn't.

Wicklow Brave

Postponed out!

posturingpat

Postponed's out. Wonder did the queen have an idea of this before the supplementing of Dartmouth.......

Wicklow Brave

Shame the KG seems to be declining in standard. Don't know why more trainers don't target it. Seems every horse now has a mid-summer break for the autumn races. Not every horse can win the Arc though. Minding, Found, Fascinating Rock, OOSG just a few that spring to mind who could have taken this opportunity.

tryfix

Wicklow Brave wrote: »

Postponed out!

Well that's blown the race wide open.


Dartmouth (9/4)in
Highland Reel (11/4)in
Wings Of Desire (9/2)in
Erupt (5)in
Sir Isaac Newton (20)in
Western Hymn (25)in
Second Step (33)in
Shogun (50)in
Ajman Bridge (66)in



Dartmouth vs Highland Reel now that's a head scratcher. Highland Reel had the easier race and the better ground should suit him but Dartmouth is the rapidly improving horse who could easily find plenty more again. Dartmouth certainly ain't no 9/4 shot in my eyes. Highland Reel might drift out a bit to where he begins to be worth a bet, he didn't appear to me to be fully wound up for the Hardwicke.

O'Brien's Sir Isaac Newton is a very interesting prospect if he shows up, I can't imagine why they'd run this valuable stallion prospect in such a competitive 12f Gp1 unless he was showing them plenty at home and he's a brother to Oaks second Secret Gesture so why they were running him in the 7f Jersey stakes last year is a mystery.


A race full of questionable horses, Found's chances would be looking pretty sweet now if she'd been sent here.

kfallon

I think O'Brien said he'll only be sending Highland Reel!

Wicklow Brave

Already on Wings of Desire but would fancy Highland Reel in a match with Dartmouth all day long.

longshotvalue

Highland reel wins the match with darthmouth for sure. Silly race last time out and dropping whip cost it the race. He looks to have a lot in hand on that horse.

As for the rest i hope he runs shogun on fast ground at a big price.

tryfix

aidankkk wrote: »

Highland reel wins the match with darthmouth for sure. Silly race last time out and dropping whip cost it the race. He looks to have a lot in hand on that horse.

As for the rest i hope he runs shogun on fast ground at a big price.

Shogun is out, the field is down to 7.

DARTMOUTH
HIGHLAND REEL
WINGS OF DESIRE
ERUPT
SIR ISAAC NEWTON
WESTERN HYMN
SECOND STEP


I'm kinda stumped as regards fancying any one of them in particular.

Harry Angstrom

Terrible race. A Group 2 at best. Far cry from the race it used to be.

Peintre Celebre

The last two years are bad renewals but let's not totally write off the race people are talking as if it's been in a steep decline for years.

Danedream's was a good renewal and Harbinger's had the English and Irish Derby winners and Arc winner along with the high class french mare Daryakana (she was one of the nicest lookers I've seen). Taghrooda's renewal wasn't great but she as a racehorse was one of the best fillies in the last decade probably only behind Zarkava Treve and Danedream. Even Nathaniel's though a small field had the top class St Nicholas Abbey and Workforce in second and third, just a shame about Rewilding he could have proved himself a top colt

tryfix

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

The last two years are bad renewals but let's not totally write off the race people are talking as if it's been in a steep decline for years.

Danedream's was a good renewal and Harbinger's had the English and Irish Derby winners and Arc winner along with the high class french mare Daryakana (she was one of the nicest lookers I've seen). Taghrooda's renewal wasn't great but she as a racehorse was one of the best fillies in the last decade probably only behind Zarkava Treve and Danedream. Even Nathaniel's though a small field had the top class St Nicholas Abbey and Workforce in second and third, just a shame about Rewilding he could have proved himself a top colt

The annoying thing is that there's £1.15 million Sterling going a begging in this with prize money down to 6th place and only 7 turn up for the race.

This race has been a premier Arc Trial within the last decade and there's nothing in the field that you could fancy to do the double or to even get close to doing the double..

It's hard to assess the Dubawi's in the race, they do improve a few pounds with age but neither of them look to be of the highest quality.

Peintre Celebre

This is probably the best chance of a domestic gr.1 for Highland Reel who was punted massively for the Irish Derby last year. It's a shame Order of St George isn't in this. They could have missed a real opportunity

Harry Angstrom

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

This is probably the best chance of a domestic gr.1 for Highland Reel who was punted massively for the Irish Derby last year. It's a shame Order of St George isn't in this. They could have missed a real opportunity

Serves Ballydoyle right. This race would've been a gimme for Order Of St George or Minding. I can't understand why Coolmore pay such scant regard for the King George anymore. When I was growing up, this race was always the highlight of the summer. Now it seems to be only just a notch above the Coronation Cup, and that's not saying much.

Wicklow Brave

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

The last two years are bad renewals but let's not totally write off the race people are talking as if it's been in a steep decline for years.

They'll be going as slow as it's National Hunt namesake in a few years at this rate lol.

Seriously though, this year's renewal is bad. Where are the 3 year olds? Harzand, Hawkbill, Idaho, Minding? The standard of older horses is very poor aswell at the moment. Disappointing. Hopefully all these horses waiting for the Autumn run in the Irish Champion Stakes.

posturingpat

The Frankel hype train a few have previously mentioned is in full flow at Ascot in the 2.45 today, Fair Eva was super impressive on debut but should never be odds on, more a 7/4 shot or perhaps a bit bigger, plenty of nicely bred types in there, particularly the O Brien animal "How" ,hasn't won yet after a few runs but has shown ability and hinted that a truly run race would bring about plenty of improvement having raced keenly, she's beautifully bred and i can see her going close and have had a bit e/w on her.

Think the French horse is my token selection in the King George.

Harry Angstrom

A measure of how bad this afternoon's King George is can be measured by the fact that Channel 4 finally got around to previewing it about half an hour into today's Morning Line. Even they couldn't summon up enough enthusiasm for it.

Francie Barrett

posturingpat wrote: »

The Frankel hype train a few have previously mentioned is in full flow at Ascot in the 2.45 today.

Well the hype was justified today, wow.

posturingpat

She's a Ferrari

Johner

Absolute animal of a thing, can't wait to see her over a mile.

tryfix

Went with Erupt in the end, based on that Arc 5th and seeing that he looked really well in himself when 2nd in the Grand Prix Du Saint Cloud. Hoping he's improved a few pounds this year. They're fairly ploughing into Highland Reel.

CH3OH

I'm hoping that the 12lbs that wings of desire get will help it fly home.

Its carrying a few euros for me which could hinder it

Johner

Great ride by Moore, got everything right from the front.

mohican22

Johner wrote: »

Great ride by Moore, got everything right from the front.

Credit where it is very much due he got the fractions spot on

Harry Angstrom

Not sure how to stop the decline of the King George, but the Ascot executive should take a look at the possibility of offering a bonus to the winner of the King George if they go on to win the Arc. It might entice the better 3yo's to start taking part in it again. Watching the old clips of Shergar and Dancing Brave today is a real reminder of how this once great race has declined in recent years.

Lt Dan

Wicklow Brave wrote: »

They'll be going as slow as it's National Hunt namesake in a few years at this rate lol.

Seriously though, this year's renewal is bad. Where are the 3 year olds? Harzand, Hawkbill, Idaho, Minding? The standard of older horses is very poor aswell at the moment. Disappointing. Hopefully all these horses waiting for the Autumn run in the Irish Champion Stakes.

But. sure, isn't that great for Ireland? A top notch Irish Champion Stakes. Very good prizemoney, a lovely prep for either the Arc or Breeders Cup, and a great excuse to go to Leoppy, and ensures O'Brien struggles to win it.

Last years race was exciting enough even without the nonsense of will he won't he run of Gleneagles. 2014 turned out to be good one too , just for the result. Considering that the Irish Derby has turned into a bit of a "without O'Brien throwing in a few horses , we would be screwed" (though Epsom could say that too)

It is a pitty though, in the past a top 3 year old would do both Derbies and the King George and Arc and or Breeders Cup

Maybe they are waiting for the International?

Lt Dan

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

A measure of how bad this afternoon's King George is can be measured by the fact that Channel 4 finally got around to previewing it about half an hour into today's Morning Line. Even they couldn't summon up enough enthusiasm for it.

Sure , Channel 4 Could not even be bothered to air the first few races at Ascot or York , instead switching to More 4. Even then, they could not even be bothered to properly show the presentation of the cup (which is massive and lovely) More content with broadcasting the Formula 1 (and I think that was only the qualifying rounds)

Thank goodness for Racing UK

Lt Dan

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Not sure how to stop the decline of the King George, but the Ascot executive should take a look at the possibility of offering a bonus to the winner of the King George if they go on to win the Arc. It might entice the better 3yo's to start taking part in it again. Watching the old clips of Shergar and Dancing Brave today is a real reminder of how this once great race has declined in recent years.

Well the Japan Cup has something similar with the bonus system if they rode in the Arc, King George, Derby, Irish Champion Stakes, Breeders etc (and their prize money alone is enough to go being one of the richest turf races)

Good Idea.

Derby (either Irish or British), King George and Arc should be considered as a European Triple Crown and rewarded and encouraged as such - even though the prize money for the likes of the King George is nothing to be sniff at, half a million and a quarter of a million just for coming second - helped Stoute win a trainers championship in 2008ish

Pinesky

Not too sure a bonus system would help .
. Owners of top class horses usually are mega rich . Stallion values increase with wins in these races . The establishment of an elite group 1 status for all aged middle distance might help .
Juddmonte/ King George / Irish champion /Arc only . Horse of the year to be based on these results only .
You could do similar for sprinters / milers/stayers .

uxiant

I'd say the talk of the King George losing its appeal has gone over the top. Let's not forget that Taghrooda won it 2 years ago, then there was Arc winner Danedream and Nathaniel who have won it in recent years while Derby and Arc winner Workforce could only manage a place in 2 attempts.

There's a poor bunch of older horses around at the moment and Harzand was never going to target the King George when he wants cut in the ground. Last year they always wanted to go back down to 10f with Golden Horn and Coolmore didn't want to campaign Australia against the best horses around at the time.

Harry Angstrom

uxiant wrote: »

I'd say the talk of the King George losing its appeal has gone over the top. Let's not forget that Taghrooda won it 2 years ago, then there was Arc winner Danedream and Nathaniel who have won it in recent years while Derby and Arc winner Workforce could only manage a place in 2 attempts.

There's a poor bunch of older horses around at the moment and Harzand was never going to target the King George when he wants cut in the ground. Last year they always wanted to go back down to 10f with Golden Horn and Coolmore didn't want to campaign Australia against the best horses around at the time.

I take your point but what I've noticed about the King George in recent years is the dwindling number of quality 3yo's who run in it. It's always been a race that's been regarded as the first proper clash of 3yo's against the older generation over a mile and a half. That doesn't seem to be happening any more. It's not the accepted thing that the Derby winner will automatically run in the King George these days. Since 1996, only four 3yo's have won the race. Contrast that with the 70's, 80's and up to mid 90's when top class 3yo's regularly won it.

Wicklow Brave

uxiant wrote: »

Coolmore didn't want to campaign Australia against the best horses around at the time.

What makes you say that? After winning the Derby on both sides of the pond, they were obviously then keen to win 10f Group Ones against older horses. He won the Juddmonte and 2nd in the ICS. The King George was never on the agenda. I don't think they were avoiding competition with him, or perhaps I'm wrong.

That is also the problem with the King George in terms of 3 year olds running because connections of Derby winners and other 3 yo stallion prospects these days are after 10f Group Ones so they're waiting for the Juddmonte, Irish Champion, British Champion and are only willing to go 12f again for the Arc.

uxiant

Wicklow Brave wrote: »

What makes you say that? After winning the Derby on both sides of the pond, they were obviously then keen to win 10f Group Ones against older horses. He won the Juddmonte and 2nd in the ICS. The King George was never on the agenda. I don't think they were avoiding competition with him, or perhaps I'm wrong.

That is also the problem with the King George in terms of 3 year olds running because connections of Derby winners and other 3 yo stallion prospects these days are after 10f Group Ones so they're waiting for the Juddmonte, Irish Champion, British Champion and are only willing to go 12f again for the Arc.

Well they always talked up his speed for a mile but didn't want to take on Kingman again and didn't target the Arc either. He was always going to be a valuable stallion with his pedigree as long as he picked up a Group 1 or two so any defeats to Kingman or Taghrooda would probably devalue him in the eyes of many. And you're right that people seem to want 10f stallions so going down that route was the logical choice when it was also the weaker division for a horse viewed as a massive stallion prospect. I don't blame them for avoiding the best horses around that year but it's always disappointing when connections hype a horse to that degree but don't test him against the best.

tryfix

uxiant wrote: »

Well they always talked up his speed for a mile but didn't want to take on Kingman again and didn't target the Arc either. He was always going to be a valuable stallion with his pedigree as long as he picked up a Group 1 or two so any defeats to Kingman or Taghrooda would probably devalue him in the eyes of many. And you're right that people seem to want 10f stallions so going down that route was the logical choice when it was also the weaker division for a horse viewed as a massive stallion prospect. I don't blame them for avoiding the best horses around that year but it's always disappointing when connections hype a horse to that degree but don't test him against the best.

There's a few things going on and it's not fear of being beaten that's keeping Derby winners away from the King George. Australia would probably have had Taghrooda for breakfast if he'd run in her King George where she beat the suspect stamina wise Mukhaadram 3l ( Australia beat him 7l and 6 1/4l over 10f in Mukhaadram's next 2 races ).

No Epsom Derby winner since Workforce has turned up at the King George and even before that the awesome Sea The Stars nor top class Derby winners such as Authorized or Motivator who were Montjeu 12f horses through and through turned up. I think you have to go back to Galileo in 2000 to find another Derby winner who tackled the King George and before that Oath in 1999.

Some trainers value the race, John Gosden who won it with two 3yos in the last 5 years is the only one who seriously targets 3yos at it and even he didn't run his superstar Golden Horn in it.


Personally I think trainers are making a mistake by not targeting it with their better staying 3yos. Galileo's reputation was massively enhanced by his win in it and since he was beaten over 10f in the Irish Champion it's a very good job they sent him to the King George.

Derby 2nd Fame and Glory could have taken his shot at big race glory ( without facing Sea The Stars ) in the King George which would have boosted his own stallion credentials far better than chasing home the superior Sea The Stars did.

Maybe it comes too soon after the Irish Derby which is a lap of honour for most Irish trained Derby winners before they rest for the summer. Most Irish trained Derby winners are targeted at an Autumn campaign revolving around the Juddmonte International, Irish Champion Stakes and The Arc. Also in the 80s there were few enough really top class 3yo stallion prospects who continued racing at 4, that dearth of top class horses being trained on seemed to end around the same time that the 3yos stopped targetting the King George.

Much of the rot around the King George can be traced back to the decision to shorten the French Derby to 10 1/2f, that decision ended the clash of Derby winners in the Irish Derby and effectively made the then highly prestigious tag of champion 12f 3yo more or less redundant leaving the way clear for high class 3yos to go back to the stallion fee friendly 10f trip until the Arc.

Lt Dan

Pinesky wrote: »

Not too sure a bonus system would help .
. Owners of top class horses usually are mega rich . Stallion values increase with wins in these races . The establishment of an elite group 1 status for all aged middle distance might help .
Juddmonte/ King George / Irish champion /Arc only . Horse of the year to be based on these results only .
You could do similar for sprinters / milers/stayers .

True.

Doesn't British kinda already have something like that with the Qipco British Series , and the big day being the British Champion Stakes/QE II Day(something cause by the Frankel buzz) http://britishchampionsseries.com/

Lt Dan

tryfix wrote: »

There's a few things going on and it's not fear of being beaten that's keeping Derby winners away from the King George. Australia would probably have had Taghrooda for breakfast if he'd run in her King George where she beat the suspect stamina wise Mukhaadram 3l ( Australia beat him 7l and 6 1/4l over 10f in Mukhaadram's next 2 races ).

No Epsom Derby winner since Workforce has turned up at the King George and even before that the awesome Sea The Stars nor top class Derby winners such as Authorized or Motivator who were Montjeu 12f horses through and through turned up. I think you have to go back to Galileo in 2000 to find another Derby winner who tackled the King George and before that Oath in 1999.

Some trainers value the race, John Gosden who won it with two 3yos in the last 5 years is the only one who seriously targets 3yos at it and even he didn't run his superstar Golden Horn in it.


Personally I think trainers are making a mistake by not targeting it with their better staying 3yos. Galileo's reputation was massively enhanced by his win in it and since he was beaten over 10f in the Irish Champion it's a very good job they sent him to the King George.

Derby 2nd Fame and Glory could have taken his shot at big race glory ( without facing Sea The Stars ) in the King George which would have boosted his own stallion credentials far better than chasing home the superior Sea The Stars did.

Maybe it comes too soon after the Irish Derby which is a lap of honour for most Irish trained Derby winners before they rest for the summer. Most Irish trained Derby winners are targeted at an Autumn campaign revolving around the Juddmonte International, Irish Champion Stakes and The Arc. Also in the 80s there were few enough really top class 3yo stallion prospects who continued racing at 4, that dearth of top class horses being trained on seemed to end around the same time that the 3yos stopped targetting the King George.

Much of the rot around the King George can be traced back to the decision to shorten the French Derby to 10 1/2f, that decision ended the clash of Derby winners in the Irish Derby and effectively made the then highly prestigious tag of champion 12f 3yo more or less redundant leaving the way clear for high class 3yos to go back to the stallion fee friendly 10f trip until the Arc.

If we are to believe Gosden, let us remember, it was the ground that stopped Golden Horn, at the last minute from running the King George

You can't really blame an Irish Trainer for wanting to go to the Irish Derby after winning the Epsom Derby (not that you were) but you will also note that doing that double ain't exactly always easy.

Interesting note about the last Epsom Derby runner going to the King George. Good point about the French Derby. What is all of that about considering they also have the unofficial Classic, the Grand Prix de Paris on Bastille Day ?

Pinesky

Lt Dan wrote: »

True.

Doesn't British kinda already have something like that with the Qipco British Series , and the big day being the British Champion Stakes/QE II Day(something cause by the Frankel buzz) http://britishchampionsseries.com/

You are right of course but I think they should make it a pan European championship. There is a lot of grumbling by the English racing press that the British Champions day comes too late in the season ,bad ground, and clashes with the Arc and Breeders Cup .
Hard to satisfy everyone I guess .

tryfix

Lt Dan wrote: »

If we are to believe Gosden, let us remember, it was the ground that stopped Golden Horn, at the last minute from running the King George

You can't really blame an Irish Trainer for wanting to go to the Irish Derby after winning the Epsom Derby (not that you were) but you will also note that doing that double ain't exactly always easy.

Interesting note about the last Epsom Derby runner going to the King George. Good point about the French Derby. What is all of that about considering they also have the unofficial Classic, the Grand Prix de Paris on Bastille Day ?

That's right Gosden was hoping to run his last Derby winner in the King George and Stoute ran Workforce his own last Derby winner in it as did Henry Cecil with his last Derby winner Oath. Mind you Peter Chapple-Hyam, Marcus Tregoning and Michael Bell were happy to give it a miss.

The problem is that the traditional big powerhouse Newmarket trainers have fallen well behind the Irish trainers in supplying Epsom Derby winners and in training 3yo colts of that kind of Derby winning class over 12f.

As with the Irish Derby being the natural next step after the Epsom Derby for Irish trainers, the English trained Derby winners are less inclined to take on O'Brien on his home turf. Trainers have patterns they follow, French trainers had a brilliant traditional pattern established for producing truly top class 12f 3yos that won their 12f Derby in June, had a crack at the Epsom winner in Ireland in June and then those experienced and proven champion class colts rested until three weeks before the Arc where they had a nice warm up over course and distance in the Niel before arriving perfectly primed for the Arc.

The Grand Prix De Paris hasn't worked out as a replacement for the Prix Du Jockey Club. It's timing doesn't allow for taking in a second top class 12f race before the Autumn rest and the shortening of the Jockey Club has meant that French trainers are taking in the Grand Prix as not much more than an afterthought to the more prestigious Jockey club.


The proof is in the pudding, since the French Derby was dropped in distance only one Grand Prix De Paris winner has gone on to win the Arc and that was way back in 2006 just a year after the changes in distance came in.

No Prix Du Jockey winner since the changes have come in has won a race afterward that was anywhere near the class of the Arc although Hurricane Run won the Arc after finishing 2nd to Shamardal when finding the 10f too short in the first year the Jockey Club was shortened in trip. He was also the last French horse to win the Irish Derby and follow that path to winning the Arc that the French had used so successfully. The French 3yo colts 12f pattern is now broken, in the 10 years before the Jockey Club was changed in distance it produced brilliant 12f Arc winning horses such as Montjeu, Peintre Celebre, Dalakhani, ( Helissio was 5th in Jockey Club before winning the Arc ).

uxiant

I wasn't watching racing back when they reduced the Prix Du Jockey Club to 10f. What was the thought process behind it if it was working so well in the program for middle distance French 3 yos? If they wanted a 10f 3 yo race why not change the Grand Prix De Paris?

Wicklow Brave

uxiant wrote: »

I wasn't watching racing back when they reduced the Prix Du Jockey Club to 10f. What was the thought process behind it if it was working so well in the program for middle distance French 3 yos? If they wanted a 10f 3 yo race why not change the Grand Prix De Paris?

The powers that be at the time felt the PDJC was in decline and they wanted to compete with Epsom and they thought 10f would attract higher class horses, especially with breeders' preference for speed in stallions nowadays. The Grand Prix du Paris actually used to be over 1m6f until the 80s, then 10f and then increased to 12f and moved back to Bastille Day around the time the PDJC was changed.

Wicklow Brave

The French being typically French didn't like their own 'Derby' being overshadowed by *the* (English/British) Derby so made the change. The PDJC is always going to be overshadowed by the Derby, no matter what they do so it was not a good decision. As tryfix said they had very good winners in the decade before they changed it so it they were wrong at the time to suggest it was in decline. Also, it totally messed up their calendar in terms of which horses targeted which races and they had to get rid of a few Group races.

Lt Dan

tryfix wrote: »

That's right Gosden was hoping to run his last Derby winner in the King George and Stoute ran Workforce his own last Derby winner in it as did Henry Cecil with his last Derby winner Oath. Mind you Peter Chapple-Hyam, Marcus Tregoning and Michael Bell were happy to give it a miss.

The problem is that the traditional big powerhouse Newmarket trainers have fallen well behind the Irish trainers in supplying Epsom Derby winners and in training 3yo colts of that kind of Derby winning class over 12f.

As with the Irish Derby being the natural next step after the Epsom Derby for Irish trainers, the English trained Derby winners are less inclined to take on O'Brien on his home turf. Trainers have patterns they follow, French trainers had a brilliant traditional pattern established for producing truly top class 12f 3yos that won their 12f Derby in June, had a crack at the Epsom winner in Ireland in June and then those experienced and proven champion class colts rested until three weeks before the Arc where they had a nice warm up over course and distance in the Niel before arriving perfectly primed for the Arc.

The Grand Prix De Paris hasn't worked out as a replacement for the Prix Du Jockey Club. It's timing doesn't allow for taking in a second top class 12f race before the Autumn rest and the shortening of the Jockey Club has meant that French trainers are taking in the Grand Prix as not much more than an afterthought to the more prestigious Jockey club.


The proof is in the pudding, since the French Derby was dropped in distance only one Grand Prix De Paris winner has gone on to win the Arc and that was way back in 2006 just a year after the changes in distance came in.

No Prix Du Jockey winner since the changes have come in has won a race afterward that was anywhere near the class of the Arc although Hurricane Run won the Arc after finishing 2nd to Shamardal when finding the 10f too short in the first year the Jockey Club was shortened in trip. He was also the last French horse to win the Irish Derby and follow that path to winning the Arc that the French had used so successfully. The French 3yo colts 12f pattern is now broken, in the 10 years before the Jockey Club was changed in distance it produced brilliant 12f Arc winning horses such as Montjeu, Peintre Celebre, Dalakhani, ( Helissio was 5th in Jockey Club before winning the Arc ).

What is the point then of the GP de Paris?

I hear some actually call it a French classic.Only decent horse that I can think of that has won that in recent years was Flintshire and maybe Errupt. The 2014 winner (in awful awful awful awful weather) Gallante (Coolmore/Fabre) now runs in Australia. Imperial Monarch also ran there (2012). Now normally, the likes of Coolmore and Juddmonte (less so them, they refer the US under their own colours) send their horses to Australia when they failed to live up to expectation in Europe. In fairness, to Gallante, he did win an important enough Group 1 in Australia (16f Handicap Group 1, lotteries) We all know about Calvaryman (winner in 2009)

Hell even the Americans, with their Belmont Invitational Derby (Tuf) goes 12 f .What was the actual reasoning behind shortening the French Derby? One big reason I stayed away from New Bay last year (and tipped each way the more experienced Flintshire) Why change a winning formula. I use to love when the French bothered to send over horses to the Irish Derby

tryfix

Lt Dan wrote: »

What is the point then of the GP de Paris?

I hear some actually call it a French classic.Only decent horse that I can think of that has won that in recent years was Flintshire and maybe Errupt. The 2014 winner (in awful awful awful awful weather) Gallante (Coolmore/Fabre) now runs in Australia. Imperial Monarch also ran there (2012). Now normally, the likes of Coolmore and Juddmonte (less so them, they refer the US under their own colours) send their horses to Australia when they failed to live up to expectation in Europe. In fairness, to Gallante, he did win an important enough Group 1 in Australia (16f Handicap Group 1, lotteries) We all know about Calvaryman (winner in 2009)

Hell even the Americans, with their Belmont Invitational Derby (Tuf) goes 12 f .What was the actual reasoning behind shortening the French Derby? One big reason I stayed away from New Bay last year (and tipped each way the more experienced Flintshire) Why change a winning formula. I use to love when the French bothered to send over horses to the Irish Derby

The point of the Grand Prix De Paris is that it's a somewhat prestigious Gp1 12f Derby like race and the only Gp1 12f race in France restricted to 3yo Colts. Such a race is vital for French trainers in their quest to keep the ultimate racing prize in French hands. The Arc is the greatest race not only in France but in the World, the Jockey Club change and enhanced GPDP was probably set up to create a US style triple crown for the French 3yo Colts with the glorious triple crown winner finishing off the season in Superstar style in the Arc.

No horse has done that treble, no horse has even done the Jockey Club-GPDP double or tried that I know of and why would they when they've already established their stallion prospects in the prestigious €630,000 Jockey Club over 10.5f and could then blow away their reputations by being being beaten by some slower maturing staying type in the less prestigious €252,000 GPDP. It's a bit like expecting an English Derby winner to risk their reputation in the Leger.

If the French were serious about the GDPD then they'd lift the prize money and prestige of the race substantially instead of just running it like a going through the motions race that it currently is. Maybe the 3yo French Colts are no longer well enough bred to be champion 12f types at that age, at least not in sufficient enough quantities to produce something special yearly like they could in the past.

Lt Dan

tryfix wrote: »

The point of the Grand Prix De Paris is that it's a somewhat prestigious Gp1 12f Derby like race and the only Gp1 12f race in France restricted to 3yo Colts. Such a race is vital for French trainers in their quest to keep the ultimate racing prize in French hands. The Arc is the greatest race not only in France but in the World, the Jockey Club change and enhanced GPDP was probably set up to create a US style triple crown for the French 3yo Colts with the glorious triple crown winner finishing off the season in Superstar style in the Arc.

No horse has done that treble, no horse has even done the Jockey Club-GPDP double or tried that I know of and why would they when they've already established their stallion prospects in the prestigious €630,000 Jockey Club over 10.5f and could then blow away their reputations by being being beaten by some slower maturing staying type in the less prestigious €252,000 GPDP. It's a bit like expecting an English Derby winner to risk their reputation in the Leger.

If the French were serious about the GDPD then they'd lift the prize money and prestige of the race substantially instead of just running it like a going through the motions race that it currently is. Maybe the 3yo French Colts are no longer well enough bred to be champion 12f types at that age, at least not in sufficient enough quantities to produce something special yearly like they could in the past.

Grey Gatsby won the French Derby and came 6th in bad ground in the Grand Prix in 2014

tryfix

Lt Dan wrote: »

Grey Gatsby won the French Derby and came 6th in bad ground in the Grand Prix in 2014

Great spot there and it's significant that TGG was an atypical French Derby winner in that he wasn't trained in France and wasn't another fashionably bred stallion prospect from the big powerhouse English or Irish stables.

IIRC TGGs Jockey Club win was treated with a shrug as if it was a fluke or as if the French horses must have been useless behind him. TGGs trainer wanted to see if the horse could step up in trip in the GPDP and unfortunately TGG proved a point in that most Jockey Club winners now aren't midsummer 12f Gp1 types. Even the Jockey Club winner and Arc third Intello didn't ever run at 12f until he gave it a go in the Arc. He went back to a mile after the Jockey Club and warmed up for the Arc in a 10f Gp3.

It turned out to be an awful pity that TGG didn't retire at 3 after such a top class 3yo season, again that was further proof of the inexperience of his trainer in the Stallion making game.

Lt Dan

tryfix wrote: »

Great spot there and it's significant that TGG was an atypical French Derby winner in that he wasn't trained in France and wasn't another fashionably bred stallion prospect from the big powerhouse English or Irish stables.

IIRC TGGs Jockey Club win was treated with a shrug as if it was a fluke or as if the French horses must have been useless behind him. TGGs trainer wanted to see if the horse could step up in trip in the GPDP and unfortunately TGG proved a point in that most Jockey Club winners now aren't midsummer 12f Gp1 types. Even the Jockey Club winner and Arc third Intello didn't ever run at 12f until he gave it a go in the Arc. He went back to a mile after the Jockey Club and warmed up for the Arc in a 10f Gp3.

It turned out to be an awful pity that TGG didn't retire at 3 after such a top class 3yo season, again that was further proof of the inexperience of his trainer in the Stallion making game.

His owner has to share a lot of the blame. Agree though, would be hard to top beating the hype horse Australia on his home turf. Saying that, his performances in the 2015 Prince of Wales and in the Eclipse are not bad, should have won the former .

Now the horse has lost a Group 2 to a horse that never won a Group 1 (to be fair Big Orange is a fine horse and even makes "Frank" Spencer look good)