Atheist Children in RC National School

How Strange

Our family are relocating to the country from Dublin and we are very sadly leaving a wonderful ETNS and enrolling our children in the local RC primary school. We are firmly atheist and we are wondering how do non catholic parents deal with the religious indoctrination of their children in catholicism?

We are looking down the line and seeing that our daughter will probably want to make communion when the time comes. Our son too but I think the big draw for the girls is the white dress. We're planning to resort to out and out bribery by booking a big family holiday for each of them to coincide with the communion season. How did other parents negotiate this one? We intend to explain to the children from the time they ask questions that we are not catholic or part of any other religion. We will try to show them that what they are learning in school is something that some people believe but people all over the world believe in different things.

Are there any good age appropriate books (5 year old ) that we could buy to start to counter balance the 'god made the world' etc theories that he will hear. Are there any good websites we can refer to? I guess our concern is that we want to keep the middle ground on being respectful, for the sake of our children, so not to send them into school saying 'my dad says this is a whole pile of hocus pocus' but at the same time encourage a bit of critical thinking in them so they can hear this information but understand its like a story.

Are we expecting too much from little kids?

Orion

How Strange wrote: »

We intend to explain to the children from the time they ask questions that we are not catholic or part of any other religion. We will try to show them that what they are learning in school is something that some people believe but people all over the world believe in different things.

That's exactly what we did. A lot of their friends did the marriage practice first communion thing but my kids were quite happy not to. It was a non-issue. Same with confirmation.

How Strange wrote: »

Are there any good age appropriate books (5 year old ) that we could buy to start to counter balance the 'god made the world' etc theories that he will hear. Are there any good websites we can refer to? I guess our concern is that we want to keep the middle ground on being respectful, for the sake of our children, so not to send them into school saying 'my dad says this is a whole pile of hocus pocus' but at the same time encourage a bit of critical thinking in them so they can hear this information but understand its like a story.

Any kid's science book
Or even let them read the bible in a critical fashion. If more theists did that they'd cease believing in it.

http://raisingfreethinkers.com/ might be a good starting point. Avoiding religion is impossible - even in an ET school. So learning that it is fiction is a good thing.

How Strange wrote: »

Are we expecting too much from little kids?

Absolutely not. I've raised to freethinking, atheist, children and they are quite happy with that and well able to respectfully hold their own against some other kids who used to give them crap for not believing in magical sky fairies.

robindch

How Strange wrote: »

Our family are relocating to the country from Dublin and we are very sadly leaving a wonderful ETNS and enrolling our children in the local RC primary school. We are firmly atheist and we are wondering how do non catholic parents deal with the religious indoctrination of their children in catholicism?

Quite a few people have negotiated this particular hurdle - it can be easy or hard, very much depending on how accommodating the school wants to be, and that's pot luck.

How Strange wrote: »

We're planning to resort to out and out bribery by booking a big family holiday for each of them to coincide with the communion season. How did other parents negotiate this one?

That was our plan as well, but as we got into an ET school, we never had to do it. In the end, Snowflake wanted to see her friends do the communion and - jeez! not having been in a catholic church for years - it was a trippy experience indeed.

How Strange wrote: »

We will try to show them that what they are learning in school is something that some people believe but people all over the world believe in different things.

Are there any good age appropriate books (5 year old ) that we could buy to start to counter balance the 'god made the world' etc theories that he will hear. Are there any good websites we can refer to?

I did this by introducing a distinction between what I suppose you could call "story-world" and "real-world", but avoiding mentioning that catholicism exists only in "story-world". Around the same time, we introduced the Greek, Roman, Norse, Egyptian and other mythologies - the Norse myths are *great*, btw! - she was able to notice similarities between mainstream religions and other mythologies and figured it all out fairly quickly.

It wasn't without its funny side. When she was around seven, she decided - I suspect out of pig-headedness - that the Norse myths were true and explained as much to Popette, a hardline, catholic fundamentalist elderly female relative of mine, of whom much anon on this forum. Popette, for once, was unsure of what exactly to sermonize about.

BTW, apropos of nothing in particular, I was quite taken with the way in which Daniel Everett discussed raising children amongst the Pirahãs in the rather wonderful book, Don't Sleep, There are Snakes. The Pirahã language has one unusual feature - reports of events, speech etc must include signifiers to indicate how the person telling the story knows that an event is true - so, instead of "Jesus walked on the water", the Pirahã translation reads something like "John told me that Jesus walked on the water". You can see what a grammar feature like that will do to stories of miracles.

Speedwell

Start with these: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/naturalwonderers/in-lieu-of-the-bible-50-picture-books/

bpmurray

Our kids went through this and didn't drink the Kool-Aid, so I'd guess that it's unlikely that yours will be converted. We didn't do anything special, no books, etc. but they saw what we did and how it didn't coincide with others, so that was enough. Don't underestimate your kids!

The teachers in general were fine about it - we're talking the best part of 20 years ago now, so it's probably even more open and there are many more of the damned attending the school now. However, as they say, there's always one. My daughter had one particular teacher who was a fervent Catholic and felt it was here duty to push the faith. She used to expel my daughter from the class during indoctrination (most teachers just put them in the back with a book) and my daughter used to spend that time sitting in the corridor, exactly as though she was being punished.

I would hope that such dinosaurs are very few and far between nowadays but it's something to watch out for.

mohawk

For us most of the problems are coming from family. We were at a family communion in May and granny (my outlaw) started the whole missing out thing. He is going into 1st class so don't know yet how we will navigate the whole thing. She was telling him how he could make loads of money! He asked about making it and when I asked if he believes in God he said no he likes having lots of money....

He goes to a RC school and appears to spend the religion slot colouring in.

looksee

Granny is being a bit devious if she is using the money aspect to bribe him into taking Communion. Just carry on with the way you are rearing your children. Unless you are neglecting them or mistreating them, it is no-one's business but a child's parents how they choose to rear them.

You could always say something like 'he can choose to take first communion if he decides he wants to, when he is old enough to realise it is not about money' if she brings it up again.

Orion

looksee wrote: »

Granny is being a bit devious if she is using the money aspect to bribe him into taking Communion. Just carry on with the way you are rearing your children. Unless you are neglecting them or mistreating them, it is no-one's business but a child's parents how they choose to rear them.

You could always say something like 'he can choose to take first communion if he decides he wants to, when he is old enough to realise it is not about money' if she brings it up again.

Tell granny that it's supposed to be a religious ceremony and if she was really a christian then money would be irrelevant. Also tell her that this sort of devious behaviour would not be considered christian either. Then tell her to mind her own business if she continues this crap.

robindch

mohawk wrote: »

She was telling him how he could make loads of money!

Hmm... I'd be well tempted to suggest, while granny is listening, that he takes her at her word and that he should cut a deal with her - he'll go through whatever religious ritual she wants him to, but she has to guarantee that he'll end up with the most money of all his classmates on the day.

Something like that would teach him a lot about families and religion

R P McMurphy

Orion wrote: »

That's exactly what we did. A lot of their friends did the marriage practice first communion thing but my kids were quite happy not to. It was a non-issue. Same with confirmation.


Any kid's science book
Or even let them read the bible in a critical fashion. If more theists did that they'd cease believing in it.

http://raisingfreethinkers.com/ might be a good starting point. Avoiding religion is impossible - even in an ET school. So learning that it is fiction is a good thing.


Absolutely not. I've raised to freethinking, atheist, children and they are quite happy with that and well able to respectfully hold their own against some other kids who used to give them crap for not believing in magical sky fairies.

Thanks for the link

Cabaal

mohawk wrote: »

He asked about making it and when I asked if he believes in God he said no he likes having lots of money....

Grand so, if he wants money give him money (no harm to use it to start a credit union account anyway) and let him buy something like everyone else. That way he'll benefit from money but you'll still save money as you won't have shelled out for a day out, mini groom suit etc

Oh and no religion stuff

Absolam

Or get him the suit and parade him round the rellys (especially granny) and let them stump up. That way he gets some cash and a suit....

Speedwell

Or point out to granny that if he was Jewish, a bar mitzvah would get him the same nice suit, the same special day, and a truckload more money. My cousin got so much that his parents put it in a three-year investment certificate for it and it paid for a new car when he was 16 and old enough for his first driving license.

smacl

looksee wrote: »

Granny is being a bit devious if she is using the money aspect to bribe him into taking Communion.

Grannies are a bit devious for sure, but for those like my mother in-law who put in many hours helping out with babysitting while both of use were working, its fair game. Given the local PP was a regular visitor to her house, I wouldn't be at all surprised if she had him splash a bit of holy water on the foreheads of our two little heathens. If she did, and it made her happier (and they didn't melt screaming with smoke pouring out of their heads), no damage done.

As for books to substitute for the bible, I reckon any good children's fantasy works well, particularly when you read it to them. Mine loved listening to and later reading Tove Jansson, Neil Gaiman, and Roald Dahl. I wouldn't impose the bible on my worst enemy let alone my kids, and reckon bible bashing books will just be setting them up for conflict with their mates at school. I wouldn't be any more inclined to raise your kids as antitheists than theists, particularly moving to a new area where many of their friends will be raised theist.

wp_rathead

smacl wrote: »

Grannies are a bit devious for sure, but for those like my mother in-law who put in many hours helping out with babysitting while both of use were working, its fair game. Given the local PP was a regular visitor to her house, I wouldn't be at all surprised if she had him splash a bit of holy water on the foreheads of our two little heathens. If she did, and it made her happier (and they didn't melt screaming with smoke pouring out of their heads), no damage done.

As for books to substitute for the bible, I reckon any good children's fantasy works well, particularly when you read it to them. Mine loved listening to and later reading Tove Jansson, Neil Gaiman, and Roald Dahl. I wouldn't impose the bible on my worst enemy let alone my kids, and reckon bible bashing books will just be setting them up for conflict with their mates at school. I wouldn't be any more inclined to raise your kids as antitheists than theists, particularly moving to a new area where many of their friends will be raised theist.

Collection of Aesops Fables are also brilliant