Rumor : 40 kw Leaf in 2017

BoatMad

http://pushevs.com/2016/07/15/nissan-leaf-will-get-a-40-kwh-battery-this-year/

I'm not sure this has much foundation.

Nissan are making a mistake by not having Leaf II in production for 2017.

I mean who's going to buy a 40 Kwh current Gen Leaf knowing in just 1.5 years there'll be the MK II with up to 300-350 kms range ?

The GM Bolt will kill the Leaf in the U.S, 60 Kwh and 200 HP. If the leaf cost the same there's no way I'd buy a 104 Hp Leaf.

Sadly as it stands now, I've written confirmation from Opel Ireland that they have 0 intentions of adding the Bolt or Ampera-E to their Irish fleet. Sad really.

MJ434

We are thinking about buying a Leaf this month as we will get the 4000 scrappage, Is the 30kwh worth the extra 3000euro?

We don't currently do any 'long' journeys on a daily basis , well bellow average annual km .. but would it be worth it for resell value or possible upgrading if they are discontinuing the 24kwh?

Cheers!

Well if I were planning on buying 2nd hand I'd be looking for the 30 Kwh, it's a bit like having the 6.6 Kw charger, they're actually sought after more and when I had a mad notion to upgrade early to the 30 Kwh the dealer was quiet keen to get mine because of the top spec and 6.6 kw charger so I'm sure the same will apply to the 30 Kwh.

The 30 Kwh also charges in the same time to 80% but that 80% is more like 100% in the 24 Kwh so if fast charging it's pretty useful.

However , this technology is changing fast and in 1.5 years there will be a 60 kwh option, most likely multiple battery options and already there is rumours of a 40 Kwh for 2017 like there were rumours of the 30 Kwh this time last year so what do you do ?

Personally I'd hang on the 1.5 years for the Gen II electrics to arrive could even be a bit longer for some models.

There won't be anything like not having to worry about charging when you need to take a long drive, 300-340 kms isn't petrol or diesel territory but it's still much better than what's available now.

MJ434

It's the scrappage offer which is making us want to do it sooner as they are giving us 4000 for an 18year old car which I'd say is worth about 1000 ...decisions decisions

I'm sure they'll be doing scrappage deals again but I'd hold off a bit longer at this late stage in the leafs life cycle.

BoatMad

MJ434 wrote: »

We are thinking about buying a Leaf this month as we will get the 4000 scrappage, Is the 30kwh worth the extra 3000euro?

We don't currently do any 'long' journeys on a daily basis , well bellow average annual km .. but would it be worth it for resell value or possible upgrading if they are discontinuing the 24kwh?

Cheers!

If the car suits and you can afford it. Buy it. Don't waste time waiting for things around the corner.

They're not small changes, having more range is a big change and extremely worth while waiting for.

Remember that 2nd hand car values of non leased cars could be seriously effected, even though you get a GFMV on PCP you still want more value in the car in 3 years.

So waiting until 2018 isn't that long to wait, even wait until 2017 to see if Nissan do indeed have a 40 Kwh option, probably be around 37 Kwh usable but still a big improvement over 24 Kwh, remember the more you drive the LEaf and find out how good it is and how cheap it is to drive electric the more you'll find yourself driving it as many ev owners do. Ask BoatMad !!!

KCross

@mj434, I'd agree with @BoatMad on the basis that if you are asking if €3k is worth it for the 30kWh there isn't much point in waiting 1.5years or maybe more (since nothing has been officially announced) for a possibly 40kWh which is undoubtedly going to be even more than 3k and you'll be asking yourself the same question then.

You will be forever waiting for the next best thing. Take a24kWh out on trial, if it fits your usage profile go for it. If you can afford the 30kWh go for it.

The 30 Kwh this time last year was a rumour !!!

Cost is unknown, I would seriously suggest holding out on that one to see how much the 40 Kwh costs, yes could be rumour but chances are it's not.

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

The 30 Kwh this time last year was a rumour !!!

Cost is unknown, I would seriously suggest holding out on that one to see how much the 40 Kwh costs, yes could be rumour but chances are it's not.

Let's say a 40kWh comes out in 2018 it won't help the poster. They will still have the same question, i.e is the extra money worth the battery upgrade, unless you think the 40kWh is going to be much the same price as a 30kWh. That will kill existing customer goodwill which I can't see Nissan doing.

So I can't see how waiting will help. Either the current car works for them or not. If depreciation is the issue then do a PCP or buy 2nd hand.

peposhi

http://www.evperformance.co.uk/nissan-technicians-create-leaf-double-battery-power/

Some good news

KCross

KCross wrote: »

Let's say a 40kWh comes out in 2018 it won't help the poster. They will still have the same question, i.e is the extra money worth the battery upgrade, unless you think the 40kWh is going to be much the same price as a 30kWh. That will kill existing customer goodwill which I can't see Nissan doing.

So I can't see how waiting will help. Either the current car works for them or not. If depreciation is the issue then do a PCP or buy 2nd hand.

No, the 40 Kwh is rumoured for "2017" and Gen II with up to 60 Kwh for 2018.

So yes I fully believe it's worth waiting another 6 months for an extra 50 odd kms range if the price is right.

Most EV owners wish they had more range, myself included.

Scottie99

Good to see all the improvements. As a commuter car, the 30kWh battery suits me perfectly. I've between 40/49% left after each day depending on how quickly I wanna get home. So I can see me just keeping it and running it into the ground.
What kind of mileage/time do you think I'll get out of the battery? (30K year)
Recently the Mrs and I purchased the hybrid Auris. I could see us changing that in 2019 and moving to a Tesla 3, hopefully we'd get an option of upgrading the 60 to 75kWh, cost depending.
It's getting exciting, 2018 has always been highlighted as when we were going to see massive improvement throughout the EV market.

The 24 kwh meets my commuting needs of 135 kms perfectly , especially with work charging, had the 30 Kwh been available at the time I would have bought it.

If I were going to buy I would wait just to see the cost and if the 40 Kwh does indeed become available. It would be well worth the wait.

But absolutely, if someone thinks the 24 Kwh or 30 Kwh will work for them then go for it, I would at the very least get the 30 Kwh with it's ability to charge at the fast charger, you can't beat it or the 6.6 Kw charger !

Scottie99

How long do you think a 30kWh battery would last in km?

Scottie99

Scottie99 wrote: »

How long do you think a 30kWh battery would last in km?

That's a good guess, there's no data yet.

Cycling of the battery (charging / discharging) has the greatest impact on battery life, shallow cycles are better and one reason Nissan included a charge to 80% feature in the charge timer.

If you use a lot of your battery for your daily commute in the 24 kwh but not as much in the 30 Kwh then this will be less cycling on the 30 Kwh.

The same commute with a 40 Kwh battery would be much less cycling again and so on, so larger batteries don't just have the ability to travel further they have the potential to last much longer because they will be cycled a lot less and even though time itself degrades batteries , if it's large enough then you probably wouldn't care about a 20% loss in a 90 Kwh model S for instance as this will still leave you with a lot of range.

steelboots

I had the same decisions to make, and as the 24k was adequate for 95% of my usage it did not merit the extra 2k, which was the offer at the time. In the end I spent the 2k getting the SVE which had leather and Boss sound system which I get value out of every day.

I paid got the 6.6 charger, and I'm starting to wonder if it was worth it, I have done on average 1 FC per month, so keeping that average I will do 48 over the life of my PCP which is 18.85 per fast charge not including interest, hardly worth it ? I could buy a nice steak dinner each time I charge for that

DrPhilG

I'm confused.

What does your FCP usage have to do with the 6.6 charger?

ei9go

It's probably too late in the current Leafs life cycle to be considering spending the guts of 30k buying a new one.

There was a very low mileage mid spec 65 reg one on cargiant last week for 9000 GBP.

I'd be afraid of the residual value of a 2016 one in three years time when there is a new model with a bigger battery.

I take it to mean he doesn't use public charge points and so won't benefit form the 6.6 kw charger.

The thing about an ev is the ability to charge it as fast as possible when you need it especially as batteries will be holding much more charge soon enough.

I've got work charging ( Now 2 Dual 7 Kw charge points. ) and use the DC network rarely, I don't need more than the 24 Kwh Leaf most of the time, however there are many times I do need a lot more range and to be honest the more I can keep away from public charge points the better, the more range , the better. I expect most people feel the same way. If I had 300 kms range I wouldn't be too fussed about using the fast chargers now and again only there is nothing being put into our fast charging network for some time now and unlikely for some time to come so the current Gen fast chargers won't be fast for a 60 Kwh battery for instance, yes you'll still get pretty much the same range per same time, depending on charging efficiency battery temp etc. But to avoid queues there needs to be much more chargers installed.

I use the 6.6 Kw AC much more and it's great.

Anyway , swings and roundabouts, different strokes for different strokes, I have the 24 Kwh, never again, now that I know better is on the way I can't wait. I just hope the 60 Kwh doesn't cost something stupid, if Leaf II still has a 104 HP motor then forget it, with the weight of a 60 Kwh battery it would be slow as hell. There is no reason Nissan can't stick in a 200 + motor in the Leaf, Leaf II needs to be bigger with an estate option, why do EV makers think we want to drive small cars with no practical boot ?

Speaking of range, a larger battery has the potential to last much longer depending on how much you charge/discharge it, more range less cycling etc but if batteries lasted much longer in 30-40 Kwh ranges and you could charge to 80% in 10 mins then I'd be saying 30-40 Kwh might just be enough but having the ability to keep going beyond 110-150 kms at 100-120 Kph would be really nice.

ei9go

ei9go wrote: »

It's probably too late in the current Leafs life cycle to be considering spending the guts of 30k buying a new one.

There was a very low mileage mid spec 65 reg one on cargiant last week for 9000 GBP.

I'd be afraid of the residual value of a 2016 one in three years time when there is a new model with a bigger battery.

PCP protects you somewhat, though you still need some value going on to the new contract.

steelboots

DrPhilG wrote: »

I'm confused.

What does your FCP usage have to do with the 6.6 charger?

So are you telling me using the FCP on a leaf with the 3.3 vs the 6.6 makes no difference ? Because I've never used the public "slow" chargers ?

stesaurus

steelboots wrote: »

So are you telling me using the FCP on a leaf with the 3.3 vs the 6.6 makes no difference ? Because I've never used the public "slow" chargers ?

The onboard AC charger has nothing to do with the FCP charging process. The 3.3-6.6 difference in AC would only be a help on public slow chargers or if you have a charger at home capable of faster speeds.
Chances are if you're using the free charger from the ESB it's not charging at the faster 6.6kw speeds. If it's an ABL unit then you might be able to change the settings to charge at faster speeds but you'd need to upgrade all the cabling and breakers etc. also.

DrPhilG

steelboots wrote: »

So are you telling me using the FCP on a leaf with the 3.3 vs the 6.6 makes no difference ? Because I've never used the public "slow" chargers ?

No difference whatsoever. Sorry!

I think ye are confused as to what the other means ?

The 6.6 Kw is dead handy and has saved me visiting a lot of fast chargers, 30-90 odd % in 1.5 hrs is pretty good if you ask me. It should be standard.

BMW installed a 11 Kw in their 33 KWh I3, so obviously BMW realise the benefits of faster AC charging, I hope Nissan are taking note.

Scottie99

Deleted User wrote: »

The 6.6 Kw is dead handy and has saved me visiting a lot of fast chargers, 30-90 odd % in 1.5 hrs is pretty good if you ask me. It should be standard.

BMW installed a 11 Kw in their 33 KWh I3, so obviously BMW realise the benefits of faster AC charging, I hope Nissan are taking note.

Very handy for when payment comes in for fast charging. I do hope Nissan install something better.

boardzz

I think he is referring to FCP as Fast Charging Points as opposed to RCP Rapid Charging Point.
The 22Kwh charge will make a difference with 6.6Kw Leaf.

Scottie99

Scottie99 wrote: »

Very handy for when payment comes in for fast charging. I do hope Nissan install something better.

Larger batteries are a good cure for any ESB charges also and worth thinking about when buying future electrics.

BoatMad

In any technological process, there is always " the next thing "

Waiting for " the next thing" means you'll never buy anything.

If the car suits. The car suits. Second guessing Nissan is not a clever thing in my opinion

This isn't like waiting for the next Iphone, range is really an important thing to be honest and when you know there is going to be much more range just around the corner it's definitely worth holding out for as I expect many potential ev owners are doing.

All of this will come down to cost and what people are willing to pay. Waiting 5 months to see if indeed there is a 40 Kwh option is worth it, waiting another year for the Gen II ? hardly that big a deal and gives time to save more to cover any extra costs.

BoatMad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This isn't like waiting for the next Iphone, range is really an important thing to be honest and when you know there is going to be much more range just around the corner it's definitely worth holding out for as I expect many potential ev owners are doing.

All of this will come down to cost and what people are willing to pay. Waiting 5 months to see if indeed there is a 40 Kwh option is worth it, waiting another year for the Gen II ? hardly that big a deal and gives time to save more to cover any extra costs.

Yes but there will always be the " next leaf " better this that or the other

Paying for battery capacity that you don't need day to day is rather like buying a V8 for the three motorway trips a year etc.

If you ( one) are in the market for a car. Then evaluate that car against your needs. If that suits and is financially viable , then the car is suitable. Constantly delaying for the " next" means you'll likely never buy any tech product.

Simply because a 40 kWh exists doesn't
remove the suitability of say a 30 kWh

I would only delay decisions when the exact price structure of an " option " is known. Otherwise all you are doing is engaging in speculation.

Not everyone wants or has the time to wait at chargers or possibly queue, most EV owners want more range, myself included when I need it it would be bloody handy despite needing it often or not.

If I change jobs for instance a 40 Kwh would be very well suited to me because chances are I would not have work charging again and I do not want to ever have to stop daily in Naas again.

bk

BoatMad wrote: »

In any technological process, there is always " the next thing "

Waiting for " the next thing" means you'll never buy anything.

While there is a certain truth to that, I've also seen a very obvious trend in many technology sectors where there is a lot of innovation in the first few years and then it matures and stabilises.

Take the smart phone market, there were massive leaps in quality and features in the early years (iphone, iphone 3g, etc.) and there was a real pressure to upgrade yearly. However this market has now matured and even a 3 year old model is now "good enough" for most peoples usage and there is a lot less pressure to upgrade.

I've seen the exact same process happen in other areas, laptops, desktop PC's etc. Of course the new models are faster and have better features, but for most people the old model is still good enough for their needs.

I do think we are in the early days with EV's where we are seeing massive jumps year to year, that tempt people to want to upgrade, because the current one just isn't quite good enough (range for EV's, processing power for smartphones/laptops/desktops). However I do think at least here in Ireland we may hit a level of maturity in the market in the next 5 years.

Once you hit 200 to 250 miles, I think people will be largely satisfied. Afterall why upgrade to a 350 mile model or 500 mile newer model when you can't even drive that far in Ireland?

People are interested in jumps in battery like this because the current range of about 100miles is still a little too constraining for many people. At >200 miles I think we will hit the "good enough" point where people won't be overly concerned with new models.

peposhi

Totally agree with BK

BoatMad

People are interested in jumps in battery like this because the current range of about 100miles is still a little too constraining for many people. At >200 miles I think we will hit the "good enough" point where people won't be overly concerned with new models.

we have no idea, as we have no data on which to make that assumption, There is clear evidence that people, based on getting a good deal , are quite happy to buy a second hand older Leaf, which suggests that not all people are chasing range

Not all people are chasing range but that's a tiny proportion of an already tiny number that are actually looking to buy an EV.