Football Championship Restructuring Idea

OldMrBrennan83

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OldMrBrennan83

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salmocab

Id like to see the championship played based on league standings so.
4 divisions of 8 (no NY) play the league as normal but maybe from march to may then,
round 1 divisions 3 and 4 play off, top of div 3 plays bottom of div 4, 2nd D3 plays 2nd last D4 etc
round 2 winners round 1 v D2 again use the league ranking winners D2 v the winners of last D3 and first D4 etc
round 3 winners round 2 v D1 same ranking system
round 4 open draw
1/4 final open draw
semi open draw
final end of august.
teams out in rounds 1&2 could play out a junior championship.
This would mean that a team in say D 2 might get a win under their belt before playing a D1 team with a chance of catching them on the hop then open draw might mean they could avoid a big gun and have a decent chance of an AI semi. Also means more emphasis on the league which would be great I think.

Coillte_Bhoy

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Any proposal to start counties in a reduced league will not get through Congress.

The format I propose everyone starts in the A Championship until you are beaten.

Then once the provinces are played out the losers go to the B championship.

There will only be 4 teams in the A championship after the provinces.

28 teams in the B.

That is not a B cship, you will have many top teams in it who will not give a toss for it and it does nothing for the weaker counties.

Coillte_Bhoy

Patww79 wrote: »

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Lazy talk. It's never even been tried or considered seriously.

OldMrBrennan83

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Coillte_Bhoy

Patww79 wrote: »

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The Tommy Murphy was for teams knocked out early, it was not a B championship as such. Im advocating two separate and distinct championships with annual promotion and relegation, (Like the GAA clb scene works so well) bringing the Murphy Cup into this is totally irrelevant, it was a hastily conceived farce of an idea.

Red Kev

Play the league as it is.

Play the provincials as usual, but finish by mid June.

Split it into A and B Championships, 16 in each.

8 provincial finalists go through to A Championship
2 best teams on fair play basis from League and Championship go through as well.
2 finalists and 2 losing semi finalists from last years B Championship go through (this gives an incentive to play well in B championship).
2 next best placed teams in the League go through (or more if some of the previous places are filled)

Play off A and B championship in a knock out, that's 4 more matches to be champion.

Start at the August Bank Holiday weekend where the 8 "last 16" matches can be played over 3 days and have it finished by the middle or end of September.

Godge

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Current System;
The back-door has been, by any measure, a disaster. It gives the top teams a second chance and since it's introduction only Galway, Armagh, Tyrone, Kerry, Dublin, Donegal and Cork have won an All Ireland.
6 Teams in 16 years.

Short memories all.

From 1969 to 1990, 22 Championships, and there were only five different winners. Is that what we want to go back to?

Jayop

Godge wrote: »

Short memories all.

From 1969 to 1990, 22 Championships, and there were only five different winners. Is that what we want to go back to?

I think a lot of people do have shortish memories, probably down to the fact that most people on here are likely off an age that they only remember from the 90's on (myself included really). The 90's just happened to be an unreal decade for different teams winning it so people are using that to judge rather than looking at the historical reality that is usually 4/5 winners per decade.

Jayop wrote: »

Most individual teams winning AI in a decade.

1900-1909 - 4 winners - Tipp, Dublin, Kildare, Wicklow
1910-1919 - 5 winners - Louth, Cork, Kerry, Wexford, Kildare
1920-1929 - 5 winners - Tipp, Dublin, Kerry, Galway, Kildare
1930-1939 - 4 winners - Kerry, Cavan, Galway, Mayo
1940-1949 - 6 winners - Kerry, Dublin, Roscommon, Cork, Cavan, Meath
1950-1959 - 7 winners - Mayo, Cavan, Kerry, Meath, Galway, Louth, Dublin
1960-1969 - 5 winners - Down, Kerry, Dublin, Galway, Meath
1970-1979 - 4 winners - Kerry, Offaly, Cork, Dublin,
1980-1989 - 5 winners - Kerry, Offaly, Dublin, Meath, Cork
1990-1999 - 8 winners - Cork, Down, Donegal, Derry, Dublin, Meath, Kerry, Galway
2000-2009 - 4 winners - Kerry, Galway, Armagh, Tyrone
2010 - Present - 4 winners - Cork, Dublin, Donegal, Kerry


So in all honesty it's been pretty much consistently between 4-6 teams per decade who have won the All-Ireland since 1900. You have two decades that are real outliers, the 50's with 7 and the 90's with 8. This decade looks to be going to form with 4 already having hared the first 6.

I think it's memory paying tricks on people that the all Ireland was more open back in the day. The 90's isn't too long ago and that was the most open decade ever.

Since 1990 we've also had 4 first time winners so teams can break into that elite in modern football but they need to get their house in order first.

The last point I made there is the most pertinent. Since 90 we've had 4 first time winners, 2 since the introduction of the back door and Donegal adding only their second in that back door period too.

Fr Tod Umptious

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

The Tommy Murphy was for teams knocked out early, it was not a B championship as such. Im advocating two separate and distinct championships with annual promotion and relegation, (Like the GAA clb scene works so well) bringing the Murphy Cup into this is totally irrelevant, it was a hastily conceived farce of an idea.

Agreed.
Starting teams in one competition and finishing them in another is BS.

Either you start and finish in A or you start and finish in B.

OldMrBrennan83

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Fr Tod Umptious

Patww79 wrote: »

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I don't agree with a B my self but the only possible B that would work is if ot allows promotion to A, a bit like Christy Ring Cup.

Prop Joe

Provincial championships are ran off as usual (In a shorter time frame) up to Semi Final stages in the four provinces.

After that

The 8 division 1 teams are drawn in two groups of four
Group A
Kerry
Dublin
Mayo
Donegal

Group B
Monaghan
Down
Cork
Roscommon

The 8 division 2 teams are drawn in two groups of four

Group C
Galway
Fermanagh
Cavan
Meath

Group D
Tyrone
Derry
Laois
Armagh

The 8 division 3 teams are drawn in two groups of four

Group E
Westmeath
Sligo
Longford
Limerick

Group F
Clare
Tipp
Kildare
Offaly

The 8 division 4 teams are drawn in two groups of four

Group G
Louth
Antrim
Wexford
Wicklow

Group H
Waterford
London
Carlow
Leitrim


The team that finishes top is seeded in the next round & home advantage
The team that finishes second qualifies with a chance of seeding
The team that finishes third qualifies for the next round
The team that finishes bottom is eliminated

This ensures there will be no dead rubber in each group


24 teams qualify for the next round

Draw consists of the 8 seeded teams who have guaranteed home advantage
The next four teams draw out from pot 2 (second seeds) join the top seeds with home advantage
The rest of the teams are drawn against those teams

The 12 winners progress to the Last 16 where they are joined by the four provincial winners

Knockout from then on.

This will ensure that all teams play at least 4 championship games ( 3 v teams of their own standard) Increases the importance of the provincials and gives a defined structure to the inter county calender

namloc1980

Prop Joe wrote: »

Provincial championships are ran off as usual (In a shorter time frame) up to Semi Final stages in the four provinces.

After that

The 8 division 1 teams are drawn in two groups of four
Group A
Kerry
Dublin
Mayo
Donegal

Group B
Monaghan
Down
Cork
Roscommon

The 8 division 2 teams are drawn in two groups of four

Group C
Galway
Fermanagh
Cavan
Meath

Group D
Tyrone
Derry
Laois
Armagh

The 8 division 3 teams are drawn in two groups of four

Group E
Westmeath
Sligo
Longford
Limerick

Group F
Clare
Tipp
Kildare
Offaly

The 8 division 4 teams are drawn in two groups of four

Group G
Louth
Antrim
Wexford
Wicklow

Group H
Waterford
London
Carlow
Leitrim


The team that finishes top is seeded in the next round & home advantage
The team that finishes second qualifies with a chance of seeding
The team that finishes third qualifies for the next round
The team that finishes bottom is eliminated

This ensures there will be no dead rubber in each group


24 teams qualify for the next round

Draw consists of the 8 seeded teams who have guaranteed home advantage
The next four teams draw out from pot 2 (second seeds) join the top seeds with home advantage
The rest of the teams are drawn against those teams

The 12 winners progress to the Last 16 where they are joined by the four provincial winners

Knockout from then on.

This will ensure that all teams play at least 4 championship games ( 3 v teams of their own standard) Increases the importance of the provincials and gives a defined structure to the inter county calender

Doesn't that potentially give an incentive for teams to get themselves relegated in the league so that they get a handier group in the Championship? It's an interesting idea but has serious flaws. Topping Group A is the same as Group H but there's a large gulf there.

Fr Tod Umptious

Prop Joe wrote: »

Provincial championships are ran off as usual (In a shorter time frame) up to Semi Final stages in the four provinces.

After that

The 8 division 1 teams are drawn in two groups of four
Group A
Kerry
Dublin
Mayo
Donegal

Group B
Monaghan
Down
Cork
Roscommon

The 8 division 2 teams are drawn in two groups of four

Group C
Galway
Fermanagh
Cavan
Meath

Group D
Tyrone
Derry
Laois
Armagh

The 8 division 3 teams are drawn in two groups of four

Group E
Westmeath
Sligo
Longford
Limerick

Group F
Clare
Tipp
Kildare
Offaly

The 8 division 4 teams are drawn in two groups of four

Group G
Louth
Antrim
Wexford
Wicklow

Group H
Waterford
London
Carlow
Leitrim


The team that finishes top is seeded in the next round & home advantage
The team that finishes second qualifies with a chance of seeding
The team that finishes third qualifies for the next round
The team that finishes bottom is eliminated

This ensures there will be no dead rubber in each group


24 teams qualify for the next round

Draw consists of the 8 seeded teams who have guaranteed home advantage
The next four teams draw out from pot 2 (second seeds) join the top seeds with home advantage
The rest of the teams are drawn against those teams

The 12 winners progress to the Last 16 where they are joined by the four provincial winners

Knockout from then on.

This will ensure that all teams play at least 4 championship games ( 3 v teams of their own standard) Increases the importance of the provincials and gives a defined structure to the inter county calender

Way too complicated.

If I'm Dublin and I get to the Leinster SF and also win group A can I play myself ?

A alternative championship needs to be simple not complicated.

And the provincial championships need to be part of it otherwise they just become the FBD, McKenna, McGrath and O' Byrne cups.

The GAA is a democratic organisation. Any one of us can put a proposal to our local club and try get it all the way to congress.

Why doesn't somebody do that, there is always lots of talk about how the system needs change but less action.

Prop Joe

namloc1980 wrote: »

Doesn't that potentially give an incentive for teams to get themselves relegated in the league so that they get a handier group in the Championship? It's an interesting idea but has serious flaws. Topping Group A is the same as Group H but there's a large gulf there.

The league incentive is one i have thought about but if the seeding is based on the current year,I would imagine the advantage of playing teams in a higher league would outweigh the incentive for championship seeding.

Championship results over the previous year or two could also be used to grade teams


I think whatever structure is put in place it needs to have an incentive for players of the weaker counties to have a realistic ambition in the game.

Prop Joe

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Way too complicated.

If I'm Dublin and I get to the Leinster SF and also win group A can I play myself ?

A alternative championship needs to be simple not complicated.

And the provincial championships need to be part of it otherwise they just become the FBD, McKenna, McGrath and O' Byrne cups.

Sorry i probably didn't explain it correctly.

The provincials are ran as normal along side the group stages
8 groups of 4 based on league position with 24 teams advancing
24 play off to leave 12 who are joined by the provincial winners
If provincial winner qualifies through the championship proper they receive a bye to the QF

I am involved in a quite nerdy group who try come up with solutions for the championship.

All championships must include

A regular programme of games
Keeping the provincials important
Incentives for weaker counties
Not impacting on Hurling Championship
Availability of county players to clubs
Staggering games not to impact on TV coverage

And a host of other issues.You can check them out here http://gaatheformat.blogspot.ie/

aidan24326

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Surely for some weaker counties a sexed up B championship would be an attractive proposition rather than the ritual hammerings in the chamionship as it is now

You would think that, but time and again we hear from both players and delegates in the weaker counties that there is just no appetite for it.

In an ideal world the system should work similiar to club level where you have different tiers and teams compete at their level. For a small club winning a Junior A or an Intermediate title is as big a deal to them as winning the senior is to a bigger club, with the added incentive of moving up a grade.

The problem with an Intercounty B Championship as I'd see it as that it carries no prestige, no history, no tradition. That's why it's difficult to get people to buy into the idea.

In the current system most counties, with a few possible exceptions, can at least dream of a Provincial title. In the last 20 years or so we've seen Clare win Munster, Leitrim and Sligo have won Connaught titles, Leitrim after a huge gap, Westmeath won their first Leinster ever, Laois won Leinster after a gap of over 50 years.

In all of these counties and many more besides, those Provincial wins mean infinitely more to them than winning some manufactured B Championship. And I know some people are proposing to separate the Provincials from the main Championship and play them in Spring or something like that, but then you devalue the Provincials and crowds would suffer.

Jayop

I thought leitrim were one of the handful with no provincial.

keane2097

Jayop wrote: »

I thought leitrim were one of the handful with no provincial.

1994

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHsZOEjXfVE

Fr Tod Umptious

Fermanagh and Wicklow are the only counties without provincial championships

aidan24326

Jayop wrote: »

I thought leitrim were one of the handful with no provincial.

As Keane2097 said, they won it 1994 and had won a Connacht Title already in the 1920s also.

Their 1994 win was particularly noteworthy as they had to beat all 3 of Roscommon, Galway (after a replay) and Mayo to achieve it.

OldMrBrennan83

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OldMrBrennan83

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aidan24326

Patww79 wrote: »

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Yes, Declan Darcy. Very good footballer, he played with Dublin in the later years of his career after he moved back there but Leitrim got his best years.

OldMrBrennan83

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Jayop

aidan24326 wrote: »

As Keane2097 said, they won it 1994 and had won a Connacht Title already in the 1920s also.

Their 1994 win was particularly noteworthy as they had to beat all 3 of Roscommon, Galway (after a replay) and Mayo to achieve it.

Cheers lads, I stand very corrected. That's a quare achievement for them beating the 3 big dogs.

Stoner

Patww79 wrote:

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There were two Dublin lads on that team, can't remember the other lad's name although he'd moved there when he was young enough.
Darcy won an all-star, their first I think.
Darcy and Gavin looked after the Dublin u21s together as a transition from senior football to management.

The Lost Sheep

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Agreed.
Starting teams in one competition and finishing them in another is BS.

Either you start and finish in A or you start and finish in B.

don't see teams starting in one competition and finishing in another as being bulls***
You see it regularly in European soccer/rugby.
Most counties want to play the big boys and have a shot at winning sam however unlikely that is. That shot shouldn't be removed but a level needs to be found for these counties to improve and get more games and possibly win silverware...