Advice Please

cfuserkildare

Hi Folks,

Am in need of some help here,
Young lad sat his grading for Red Tip on Saturday,
INstead of being given a pass or fail, We were told that he has reached his potential, and the Master will no longer GRade him??
WTF???
This is the first grading where he has not passed!
This master has seen hima total of perhaps 40 minutes in the last 2 years!
Anyone know what to do?

Niall Keane

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Hi Folks,

........We were told that he has reached his potential, and the Master will no longer GRade him??
.......

if this was to an adult, I'd find that kinda funny, "pure cnutish" as they say, but funny as ...

If its to a kid then its way out of order.... one does not go around "limiting" a kids potential.

Of course, maybe the kid has gone as far as he can...... with that instructor.

perhaps consider an art less prone to "subjective" judgements and more of a combat sport? Every day there is feedback, respect is earned and deserved, losing gives way to losing less frequently and eventually competing and winning, at the level up to and decided by the student / practitioner, and one isn't dependent on some tosser with a coloured belt who 9 times out of ten has zero fight experience giving their unqualified opinion about a "Martial" skillset.

I'd never subject my sons to that kind of nonsense, I wouldn't want them mollycoddled and duped into thinking they are better than they are (belt colour V Championship belt) nor would I want them held-back from their true potential by group fantasy.

I'm not making any judgements about what parents chose, I believe that they obviously want what's best for their kids. I do think that they often aren't clear about the level of deception and self-deception in the world of martial arts.

From my own experience in Gung Fu / Wushu, you have the Sanda (Chinese MMA) brigade and those lads usually can move well from their training and therefore have good forms (katas), not 9.4 "master-level" IWUF scores, they aren't spending their lives in front of mirrors but on the mats. Conversely, I have yet to meet a form-competitor of high level (international champion of forms) who can half-arsed fight or use any of the stuff supposedly in their forms!

Traditionally all this form / kata nonsense comes from Chinese Martial Arts Gung Fu... TKD from Karate, Karate from White Crane.....

Forms come from the "folk" arts, including Chinese opera. Most of the "folk" arts have only a form or two and that consists of their entire syllabus. They are looked down upon, like "boxercise" here in the west.
Real "boxing" arts in the Gung Fu World have forms sure, they are used as catalogues of techniques aligned due to relationships in recovery or counter dynamics. When you see a form with 5 or 6 executions of the same technique and the technique is too simple, a straight punch etc. where the body and full arm etc and preceding movement aren't doing something critical like chin-na (chokes / /locks) or wrestling etc. or if you see a several step run-up to a kick etc... you are watching crude "folk" art. That's an uncomfortable fact for many, but any serious degree of research evidences such.

Can you imagine heading over to the "boxing" forum here on boards and suggesting that "real" champions should be graded on their upper-cut, hook and jab forms? and that such should supersede any fight record?

The fallacy is clearly evident, but put "oriental" this or that before it and hey.... bullsh1t becomes all zen!

Belts are the same jive.... invented in Judo first to simply avoid injury by separating out two levels.... beginner and advanced... simple practical usage.
But the greedy and inept saw the potential. gradings are cash-cows and belts lend undeserved respect!

I acknowledge that some decent instructors use belts to motivate students, and some students thrive on such gold-stars... to each their own....

for me the intent desired in martial arts is to never give up, is to be able to weather atrocious storms and not break, how else can one hope to defend one's self when outnumbered or otherwise disadvantaged? Going through the furnace of training required to mould that character automatically produces a respect for all true endevour and effort and those who try, and an understanding that rewards require such ceaseless exertion. It delivers an appreciation for culture and world heritage, because we have had to study such and come to "know" it, "embody" it! And this method of self-cultivation demands honesty and truth... you must be honest with yourself first! Our opponents and rivals become our most valued checks against fallacy and often our inspiration. Enemy realises into friend!
This is the kind of attributes and self awareness many parents seek for their kids, and clearly the demands of real martial arts will offer the opportunity to develop character!
But a belt system is an crutch in a lot of ways, a hierarchical position awarded by another. Do such systems condition the child into requiring constant reaffirmation from their peers? Is that a "warrior" mindset? And do we want our kids to respect "hierarchy" unquestionably? Bowing to a higher belt, or to a "master"? That sounds like mental slavery not an unbreakable iron will?
No doubt, the belt culture will programme (as it was designed to do by the Japanese military) contented little troopers, who know their place, and take self-defeating orders willingly, with a bow..... and today, wage-slaves for the 9-5 corporate culture (it served early twentieth century Japanese Budo Fascism well. A tool to condition children to more readily accept their later experience with military hierarchical structures. When you send troops out as bait so the army can persevere, you don't want them opening up a discussion on the matter!).... I fail to recall any international fighter I know, and I know a lot, who are not self-made men, successful entrepreneurs, who were taught long ago in martial arts to seek beyond the 9-5 and ignore, no! "value" the pain of effort and sacrifice. I have to say that I don't think any of them could or would put up with a beta-life for long, they all cut their teeth as wage-slaves for sure, but quickly surpassed the middle-management belt-holders and didn't fail to recognize less than efficient structures and people around them and thus figure out how to succeed, to win... but that's what real fighters do!

Peetrik

+1 on everything Niall said.

SVJKarate

cfuserkildare wrote: »

INstead of being given a pass or fail, We were told that he has reached his potential, and the Master will no longer GRade him??

"reached his potential" ????

So, this raises many questions, and I wonder which of them had reached his potential?

Firstly, what MA are we talking about? Has your son any specific physical or learning disabilities? Is it likely, in your view as an adult, that your son cannot improve beyond where he's at now?

Some instructors find it difficult to teach children with physical or learning issues, especially in a large class, and it's possible that the "master" was prompted to offer this opinion to you on the basis of the instructor's opinion.

Just a thought.

Nathan G

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Hi Folks,

Am in need of some help here,
Young lad sat his grading for Red Tip on Saturday,
INstead of being given a pass or fail, We were told that he has reached his potential, and the Master will no longer GRade him??
WTF???
This is the first grading where he has not passed!
This master has seen hima total of perhaps 40 minutes in the last 2 years!
Anyone know what to do?

That sounds like a load of bull, MA is a skill like any other and can be learnt to a great extent depending on the time and effort but into it.

I would recommend finding a new club or teacher within the same art.

Don't let it turn your kid off MA, there is a lot of politics and bullcrap involved (this being a good example) but there are plenty of people out there that would be more then happy to teach your kid.

SVJKarate

Nathan G wrote: »

That sounds like a load of bull, MA is a skill like any other and can be learnt to a great extent depending on the time and effort but into it.

Well yes, but there are limits. Teaching a person with vertigo to walk a tightrope is very likely to result in failure, depending on the severity of the affliction. Encouraging them to pursue that ambition may be foolish, and could ultimately lead to more harm than good.

However, it's possible to teach a person with vertigo how to improve their balance as they walk . . . . maybe even get them to walk a low beam. That might be a huge advance for them, and would be a very worthwhile undertaking for the person.

Some people have afflictions which make it difficult, if not downright dangerous to practise a MA. For example, a person with brittle bones could not safely engage fully in MA training, so their "potential" may be limited to training in basics and forms/kata, but without ever engaging in contact.

The "master" sounds like a prat in this OP, but I'd be interested to learn if there's a background to the story which might make his behaviour more understandable. "Masters" rarely decline to grade a student, 'cos grading is where the money is, unless there's something else going on, . . . or he's a sociopath of some sort.

Nathan G

SVJKarate wrote: »

Well yes, but there are limits. Teaching a person with vertigo to walk a tightrope is very likely to result in failure, depending on the severity of the affliction. Encouraging them to pursue that ambition may be foolish, and could ultimately lead to more harm than good.

You are right. Obviously physical and mental limitations have to be considered and can be a deciding factor in the undertaking of any discipline, this i would hope would be obvious.

However the information given, made it seem that the persons kid was simply turned down for little to no reason. The fact the kid had already been graded multiple times makes it sound like the instructor is just not bothered.

cfuserkildare

Hi folks,
Yes, he has Dyspraxia and Aspergers.
But after 4 and a half years, and heading for red tip, this is his first failed grading.

SVJKarate

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Yes, he has Dyspraxia and Aspergers.

Respectfully, this is very pertinent to the discussion. I have had the experience of teaching students with these conditions and I can say that from an instructor's perspective (and for the student) it's very challenging. Both of these conditions occur on a scale, and depending on their position on that scale it can be very frustrating for the student to continue training in a class with people who, in the main, do not have those conditions. That can make it hard for the instructor to keep motivating the student.

Students with Asperger's can find it very difficult to take instructions in a class, and especially where an instruction is directed to their face. I found that a better strategy was to walk up beside them and give the instruction in a calm voice without eye contact. Any emotion in the voice of the instructor can be misread and cause the student anxiety. Where the instructor requires the student to show a degree of attitude or spirit in executing a technique, the student with Asperger's will struggle, because this is something that they find hard to control in every aspect of their lives. Add Dyspraxia into that and it's very, very difficult for the student to progress. My experience was that progression did not occur in line with other students with the same level of training, and that the question of "not going for a grading now" has to be handled very sensitively, both for the student and for the parents.

Interestingly, in most cases where a student with Dyspraxia joined our club, neither the student (adult) nor the parent (child) mentioned it when signing up, even when filling out the membership form which specifically asks if there are special issues which the instructors need to be aware of. We are happy to take students with these conditions in our club, but it certainly helps to be tipped off, so that we don't try to deal with the inevitable "mistakes" the student makes in the same way as you would for somebody without that condition. Not knowing about the condition can lead the instructor to act and speak to the student in a manner which can really cause them frustration.

So, should his "Master" have told you he could not grade your son? I think what the instructor should have said is that it's too soon to grade him, that he needs longer to meet the standard required by that grade. The "Master" should not have had to make that call. If your son has the motivation to continue training without grading then it would probably continue to be helpful for him to stay training. You know your own son, of course, but be careful not to presume that he wants the next grade as much as you might want him to get it.

I would also respectfully rule out the suggestion of transferring to a "combat" style as suggested by Niall earlier. Students with Asperger's can be totally overwhelmed emotionally if they receive a knock which causes them pain, even modest pain (but this very much depends on where they are on the spectrum of Asperger's) so a "contact" style might cause them a lot of distress. You need to judge that yourself, or in conjunction with his instructor if you think that he has a reasonable understanding of your son's condition.

Remember also, if I understood your OP correctly - your son has not failed the grading. The examiner recognised the limitation of trying to grade him under the syllabus that he uses, and has said that your son has "reached his potential". You could reasonably interpret that to mean that the syllabus being used to grade him is not fit for the purpose of measuring your son's progress against his potential.

I do understand your frustration at the experience. It sounds to me that it was not managed as well as it should have been, primarily by the instructor, but for your son's sake I'd strongly advocate trying to encourage him to continue MA training, even if that means finding a MA or club which can measure his progression against a syllabus which is more appropriate to your son's abilities.

cfuserkildare

Hi SVJKarate,

I finally let myself get soooo woulnd up about this that I called the Master directly and asked him what he had said,

Firstly, as I would have expected, he said that he is not in a position to say that about a student whom he only see's for perhaps 20 minutes every 9 months!
Secondly, the Master had not been made aware of the yound lads condition by the teacher until after the grading,
THirdly, the teacher was under the impression that the young lad was 13 years old, not 11 as he actually is, ( this teacher has been running the class for at least 18 months, possibly 2 years )
Fourthly?? This teacher is an SNA ( Special Needs Assistant )and should know a bit about handling events like this.

yomchi

Sorry you had this experience. These people do not represent the vast majority of good martial arts schools in Ireland.

By the colour of the belt it sounds like Taekwon-Do or some other Korean martial art, which can be typical of such utter BS.

Where are you based if you don't mind me asking?

pearsquasher

My advice is to request to meet with the teacher/master whatever - vocalize your annoyance to them directly then find another art/club/teacher for your child and vet that art/teacher/club as best you can - online, other parents views etc.

I understand that your kid, after 4 years of "good" training, I assume with friends and a social outlet, will find it hard to attend a different club but that's what I would do.

Otherwise you have to accept what a teacher you entrusted with your kids says/does/how they run the club. Playing devils advocate for a sec - that's their call not yours - but I wouldn't let my kid be their student.

From what I can tell, and of course there are exceptions, Japanese arts, which I am involved with, treat kids grading different to adults. With kids the grade blends with ability and is not an absolute standard all kids must conform too. With adults your ability is pushed but never told it has been this or that.

I will be teaching kids one day as my own reach that age (when they're around 6) and I would never ask a kids to sit a grade if I thought that they would fail in the first place. Its supposed to be fun and developmental - its not really about standards. Its not Olympic gymnastics or life/death.