There Never Will Be Multiculturalism(mod warning post 1)

ClovenHoof

People are tribal by nature. That will never change. The Bono's and Lennon's were wrong. Even the white PC liberals marry and have kids in their own race or ethnic group.

This 'we are one' comes from the same infantile emotionality as Socialists thinking the class system will end.

The best we can hope for is mutual respect and cooperation, but there is never going to be any great peaceful melting pot. People who claim this are somewhat psychotic in my opinion or live in gated communities that price the 'minorites' they love so much out.

We can all live in peace, but we'll never be one.

Mod-Ok guys knock off the personal jibes and get back on topic. This is the first and only warning. Were trying to be less intrusive in our moderation but damn some of you are making it hard.

suicide_circus

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BijINQiCEAAbOpu.jpg

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HHT_V294Co

The Backwards Man

Balls.

That's just about as much of a response as your 'assertion' requires.

ClovenHoof

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Balls.

That's just about as much of a response as your 'assertion' requires.

and thus, you have demonstrated why. Your self rightousness is absurd even to you.

Trent Houseboat

Finally someone who isn't afraid to stick it to the PC police.

The Backwards Man

ClovenHoof wrote: »

and thus, you have demonstrated why. Your self rightousness is absurd even to you.

I'm not being self righteous, you're just talking shìte.

MilesMorales1

It's a nice Friday afternoon. Relax.

LightsStillOn

kowloon

This is why the Scots and the Picts are still two distinct groups at each other's throats.

ScumLord

That's utter nonsense, there's been multiculturalism since the first humans tribes ran into each other after not seeing eachother for a long time.

It's not like there is a definitive culture, everyones culture is changing constantly.

No matter what time you go to in history for every two tribes that are fighting each other there's likely to be many times more trading with each other.

Go back to stone age times and we only really have evidense for trading, I don't think there are really any signs of large scale conflicts.

Even the Vikings gave up a life of rape and pillage to settle and trade all over Europe to the point we can find artifacts from as far away as India showing up in nordic countries. When you look at the reasons for the Vikings they were pushed into action, when they could abandon that lifestyle they did, even though their entire culture revolved around that lifestyle.

The default state of all life on this planet is one of violence. So it's not surprising at all that humans are violent. What is surprising is that the vast majority of human interaction is not violent, for the most part when two human beings meet no matter how foreign they are they can greet each other and get along.

The Backwards Man

kowloon wrote: »

This is why the Scots and the Picts are still two distinct groups at each other's throats.

There wouldn't have been any Picts or Scots to begin with if there was an ounce of credibility in the OP

Outlaw Pete

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVvkj7jL-RM

Boskowski

Can't agree with that. The greatest example of how it works are - for all their other problems - the USA. I find it the greatest coolest thing that the USA have 'achieved'. Every time I go there I find it amazing how it doesn't matter what your name is and what you look like everybody assumes you're American and for the most part are cool with that. Which in return makes everyone feel American, even they guy that just stepped off the plane. Which makes them all get along quite nicely.
Now of course I understand I'm talking about the educated and relatively wealthy North-East here and it may not feel like that everywhere in the states but nonetheless its a clear sign that it works if people allow it to work.
Because what people must understand is that essentially all people are more or less the same. They want a decent life for themselves, they want to find a nice partner they can fall in love with, a decent rewarding job, raise kids in a stable environment and generally speaking live a quiet, ideally prosperous and peaceful life. All sh1t comes basically from people who are not happy with that and want to get one over the other guy or project their own fear of inadequacy on the others.

Fleawuss

I'm having a Chinese takeaway tonight. I hate Indian food. And Thai. Italian is great. Haute cuisine French is utterly sublime. I've grown to like rap, like Wagner and adore Chopin. Rock n roll is great, I can watch cricket ( extraordinarily relaxing game... SFA happens) like soccer and rugby and Gaa.

Take that multiculturalism.

FrJGHackett

"Multiculturalism" means that different ethnic/religious groups are big enough to challenge each other for power, and that's usually a disaster. Most western/European nations at the moment have a dominant majority culture whose power is overwhelming and therefore unquestionable over things like the political process. That adds to stability. If that starts to erode, then you will have Lebanon, Yugoslavia circa 1989, etc.

Homogeneity of a country is a benefit, absolutely not a hindrance. Among other things:

Strong democracy correlates with ethnic homogeneity. Diversity correlates with latitude and low GDP per capita.

www. washingtonpost. com /news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/16/a-revealing-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-ethnically-diverse-countries/

You can keep your "Multiculturalism".

RayM

One of my neighbours is from Donegal. Another is from Limerick. I barely understand a word they say, but we all get along just grand. Nothing wrong with multiculturalism at all.

lawlolawl

Fleawuss wrote: »

I'm having a Chinese takeaway tonight. I hate Indian food. And Thai. Italian is great. Haute cuisine French is utterly sublime. I've grown to like rap, like Wagner and adore Chopin. Rock n roll is great, I can watch cricket ( extraordinarily relaxing game... SFA happens) like soccer and rugby and Gaa.

Take that multiculturalism.

Way to culturally appropriate all that stuff, you fiend.

Mr. CooL ICE

OP, the lactobacillus acidophilus and streptococcus thermophilus in your gut kinda proves you wrong.

FrJGHackett

Boskowski wrote: »

Can't agree with that. The greatest example of how it works are - for all their other problems - the USA. I find it the greatest coolest thing that the USA have 'achieved'. Every time I go there I find it amazing how it doesn't matter what your name is and what you look like everybody assumes you're American and for the most part are cool with that. Which in return makes everyone feel American, even they guy that just stepped off the plane. Which makes them all get along quite nicely.
Now of course I understand I'm talking about the educated and relatively wealthy North-East here and it may not feel like that everywhere in the states but nonetheless its a clear sign that it works if people allow it to work.
Because what people must understand is that essentially all people are more or less the same. They want a decent life for themselves, they want to find a nice partner they can fall in love with, raise kids in a stable environment and generally speaking live a quiet, ideally prosperous and peaceful life. All sh1t comes basically from people who are not happy with that and want to get one over the other guy or project their own fear of inadequacy on the others.

Multiethnic countries severely lack national cohesion which leads to "us vs. them" mentality within the nation. That breeds more conflicts and lowering of any kind of social benefits (see the US—they don't even have national healthcare!). And much more.

biko

When it comes to multiculturalism then Anglo and Latin countries are most tolerant whereas India and Jordan are by far the least tolerant
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/

Boskowski

FrJGHackett wrote: »

Multiethnic countries severely lack national cohesion which leads to "us vs. them" mentality within the nation. That breeds more conflicts and lowering of any kind of social benefits (see the US—they don't even have national healthcare!). And much more.

You didn't really make much of a case here. A few assertions strung together with no real connection and no argument. Am I supposed to say ,'ah sh1t, you're right' to that?

I, on the other hand, was talking about real, frequent 1st hand observations.

cowboyBuilder

Fleawuss wrote: »

I'm having a Chinese takeaway tonight. I hate Indian food. And Thai. Italian is great. Haute cuisine French is utterly sublime. I've grown to like rap, like Wagner and adore Chopin. Rock n roll is great, I can watch cricket ( extraordinarily relaxing game... SFA happens) like soccer and rugby and Gaa.

Take that multiculturalism.

Wagner

FrJGHackett

Boskowski wrote: »

You didn't really make much of a case here. A few assertions strung together with no real connection and no argument. Am I supposed to say ,'ah sh1t, you're right' to that?

You're the one painting the US to be a tolerant multicultural utopia were everyone gets along! Utterly absurd thing to say. As for everyone claiming to be American - yeah, with a prefix added.

FrJGHackett

Boskowski wrote: »

You didn't really make much of a case here. A few assertions strung together with no real connection and no argument. Am I supposed to say ,'ah sh1t, you're right' to that?

You're the one painting the US to be a tolerant multicultural utopia were everyone gets along! Utterly absurd thing to say. As for everyone claiming to be American - yeah, with a prefix added.

Diversity increases distrust between people of a person's own race and of different races, reduces civic participation, amongst other things.

www. boston. com /news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/the_downside_of_diversity/?page=full

MadDog76

Boskowski wrote: »

Can't agree with that. The greatest example of how it works are - for all their other problems - the USA. I find it the greatest coolest thing that the USA have 'achieved'. Every time I go there I find it amazing how it doesn't matter what your name is and what you look like everybody assumes you're American and for the most part are cool with that. Which in return makes everyone feel American, even they guy that just stepped off the plane. Which makes them all get along quite nicely.
Now of course I understand I'm talking about the educated and relatively wealthy North-East here and it may not feel like that everywhere in the states but nonetheless its a clear sign that it works if people allow it to work.
Because what people must understand is that essentially all people are more or less the same. They want a decent life for themselves, they want to find a nice partner they can fall in love with, a decent rewarding job, raise kids in a stable environment and generally speaking live a quiet, ideally prosperous and peaceful life. All sh1t comes basically from people who are not happy with that and want to get one over the other guy or project their own fear of inadequacy on the others.

Yeah, America is great ......... they're such peaceful accepting people, they don't have the racist/sexist/class elite problems that the rest of the world have ......... sorry, I just read that back and, for some reason, it makes no sense.

Junkyard Tom

Cultimulturalism is the real risk.

ClovenHoof

The Backwards Man wrote: »

I'm not being self righteous, you're just talking shìte.

Can you show me Yugoslavia on a current map then?

ClovenHoof

Boskowski wrote: »

Can't agree with that. The greatest example of how it works are - for all their other problems - the USA. I find it the greatest coolest thing that the USA have 'achieved'. Every time I go there I find it amazing how it doesn't matter what your name is and what you look like everybody assumes you're American and for the most part are cool with that. Which in return makes everyone feel American, even they guy that just stepped off the plane. Which makes them all get along quite nicely.
Now of course I understand I'm talking about the educated and relatively wealthy North-East here and it may not feel like that everywhere in the states but nonetheless its a clear sign that it works if people allow it to work.
Because what people must understand is that essentially all people are more or less the same. They want a decent life for themselves, they want to find a nice partner they can fall in love with, a decent rewarding job, raise kids in a stable environment and generally speaking live a quiet, ideally prosperous and peaceful life. All sh1t comes basically from people who are not happy with that and want to get one over the other guy or project their own fear of inadequacy on the others.

They had a massive landmass to play with and all they did was create the biggest ghettos of all.

I lived all over the USA for many years and it is torn asunder by racism and class ffs. What the hell are you on about!

biko

biko wrote: »

When it comes to multiculturalism then Anglo and Latin countries are most tolerant whereas India and Jordan are by far the least tolerant
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/

Well if Jordan is intolerant it's a strange one for a country which has 664,000 refugees, the 6th highest recipient of refugees on the planet in 2014 (5,853 refugees for plucky Ireland!). Added to that is the 2 million plus Palestinian refugees in Jordan's borders (267,000 refugees in the far greater United States). Now, I have no doubt the most of the Arab world, India, Pakistan and the rest are in the dark ages of "tolerance" (especially towards women) but given the refugee numbers involved in Jordan, if I were in the Washington Post (or any western newspaper), I'd curtail my prejudices somewhat.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Europe and North America are the two most diverse and tolerant continents on the planet.

FrJGHackett

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Europe and North America are the two most diverse and tolerant continents on the planet.

Africa is the most diverse continent on the planet.

jmayo

The thing with America is they indoctrinate immigrants to adopt the American dream, which at this stage I actually reckon is just an unattainable dream for the vast vast majority.

You pledge allegiance to the flag, clasp your hand to your chest when they play the anthem, and are meant to chant USA, USA, etc, etc

You can still claim to be Irish, Italian, Mexican, Chinese, Korean, but first and foremost you are meant to now be an American.
Hell you are even expected to go die for the flag in some forgotten land.

IMHO getting rich or at least the idea that you can be rich is what gets people from all around the world to buy into America.
And for most the USA offers more opportunities and chances than their home countries could ever manage.

Saying that there is huge gulf between the haves and the have nots.
And there are huge racial tensions.

The problem with what washes for a discussion on multiculturalism in Europe is that we are basically now talking about for the most part muslim immigrants, their offspring and their failure to assimilate into the host society.
A lot of the immigrants of all hues that arrived in Europe post WWII and in 50s, 60s, 70s often faced hostility and discrimination from the natives, but actually worked quiet hard, tried to integrate and build better lives for themselves and their children.
For instance see how well those who arrived with nothing from Uganda in the 70s did in the UK.

But there are huge issues in multiple European countries with muslim immigrants and more particularly their offspring.
Allowing them live separately, holding on to some old cultural customs, traditions and beliefs that are often at odds with the mainstream secular societies in which they dwell might seem like the liberal thing to do, but it has been shown to be sowing the seeds for disaster.

The rule should be if you don't like or even despise the secular society you live in, then stop trying to drag it back to the dark ages and pee off somewhere more suited to your mindset.
Of course where that becomes difficult is when you are born and raised in the country that you despise.

Or maybe it is just that some cultures and beliefs just aren't compatible ?

jmayo

FrJGHackett wrote: »

Africa is the most diverse continent on the planet.

And they have been slaughtering each other because of it.

RoboRat

The only way there will be multi-culturalism is if we get invaded by Aliens.

511

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Balls.

That's just about as much of a response as your 'assertion' requires.

Let's just face facts, posting "balls" was the best your intellect could come up with. You didn't like the OP's post, but you couldn't think of a way to discredit it.

511

ScumLord wrote: »

That's utter nonsense, there's been multiculturalism since the first humans tribes ran into each other after not seeing eachother for a long time.

This sentence completely lacks any point.

It's not like there is a definitive culture, everyones culture is changing constantly.

They change but cultures have always been at each others' throat.

No matter what time you go to in history for every two tribes that are fighting each other there's likely to be many times more trading with each other.

The existence of fighting between tribes just proves his point. Some cultures get along, some don't. Islam being a perfect example of a culture that's incompatible with pretty much everything.

Go back to stone age times and we only really have evidense for trading, I don't think there are really any signs of large scale conflicts.

Probably because the stone age is before recorded history, but ethnic groups would have been much smaller so wars wouldn't ahve been large.

Even the Vikings gave up a life of rape and pillage to settle and trade all over Europe to the point we can find artifacts from as far away as India showing up in nordic countries. When you look at the reasons for the Vikings they were pushed into action, when they could abandon that lifestyle they did, even though their entire culture revolved around that lifestyle.

Ah, great! We just have to wait for Arabs and Pakistanis to give up their rape and honour killing culture, but in the meantime, let's just ignore or tolerate these vile cultural practices until they do so, however long that takes.

The Backwards Man

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Can you show me Yugoslavia on a current map then?

You won't find Carthage or the Hallstatt state on a current map either, what's your point?

ScumLord

511 wrote: »

The existence of fighting between tribes just proves his point. Some cultures get along, some don't. Islam being a perfect example of a culture that's incompatible with pretty much everything.

It's not, Islam gave us modern science and mathematics, at the time they did that they were very open. So it's not true that Islam is always incompatible. There's more to it than that.

Probably because the stone age is before recorded history, but ethnic groups would have been much smaller so wars wouldn't ahve been large.

There's still very little for violence in burials, as far as I know. We don't need historical evidense, the bodies show the lifestyle these people lived and it wasn't violent, we don't have mass graves from the time period like we do for other time periods. We also don't really see human specific weapons, we see hunting tools.

Even going back to the Vikings, they weren't a big army of men, they were groups of maybe 30-60 men for the most part in the early days and they could cause utter havoc because the rest of Europe wasn't able to fight them. They didn't have the infrastructure, or militaries, or warriors capable of defending from just a small group of 30 men.

Its dead Jim

But there is multiculturalism. I just got food from an asian take away ran by asian people.

Ronald Wilson Reagan

Multiculturism has forced the pace and set up an uneasy equality between cultures. This creates friction that brings a lot of negatives to the surface that otherwise wound be buried.

Eramen

Fleawuss wrote: »

I'm having a Chinese takeaway tonight. I hate Indian food. And Thai. Italian is great. Haute cuisine French is utterly sublime. I've grown to like rap, like Wagner and adore Chopin. Rock n roll is great, I can watch cricket ( extraordinarily relaxing game... SFA happens) like soccer and rugby and Gaa.

Take that multiculturalism.

Thank you for describing your multitudinous economic relationships along with your preferred business establishments. But it's all quite transient and lacking in cultural permanency.

What you've described could be regarded as a mere consumer role, which if anything is devoid of genuine items of culture.

The Backwards Man

Its dead Jim wrote: »

But there is multiculturalism. I just got food from an asian take away ran by asian people.

Relax Jim, it amazes me how some of these people can even spell it when they haven't the first clue what it means. It's a handy word to have in your arsenal when you blame a certain culture or cultures for all the world's ills suppose, but just like a bazooka, if you don't know how to use it right you could end up blowing up your own house.

walshyn93

The difference between multiculturalism today and multiculturalism in the BC's is that some of the ways people achieved multiculturalism in those days are considered immoral now.

Subjugating other cultures and subsuming them into the dominant culture is considered wrong today, but that's how multiculturalism succeeded in the past. We can't do what Mohammad did to unite various tribes in the Middle East today because that would involve genocide, ethnic cleansing and forced obedience. Getting Protestants and Catholics to live side by side in peace took centuries of civil strife. It's easy to achieve multiculturalism when no one can read or write and remember their heritage. they will adopt whatever identity you give them. Written history makes it impossible for people to forget where they come from, and so distinct cultures can never be wiped out like they did to the Picts or the Cimbrii. As long as distinct cultures survive there will be tensions between them that can be inflamed by crises. The struggle for dominance by one or the other will continue ad infinitum

walshyn93

kowloon wrote: »

This is why the Scots and the Picts are still two distinct groups at each other's throats.

The Picts no longer exist as a culture, you're dead right.

There you have it lads. Multiculturalism = cultural extinction.

Samaris

Er, genocide is kinda the opposite to multiculturalism. Multiculturalism allows for people from X different culture is live in proximity with a certain amount of commonality between them. Examples - London, many parts of the US and large cities, Ancient Rome, Germania, Viking Waterford.

Genocide is sorta the opposite, given it involves wiping out another race rather than living with them!

Edit: Yeah, the ancient Scots are of a different blood than the current ones too, walshyn93. Best thing to do to preserve is to only breed within your family. Ensure those nasty furrin genes are kept well out!

I mostly jest.

Ronald Wilson Reagan

Eramen wrote: »

'Nazi', such an over-used word.. Kind've falls flat these days.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYvgvkKT0Ow

What we need is some chemical warfare.

FrJGHackett

jmayo wrote: »

And they have been slaughtering each other because of it.

Funnily enough, very few westerners who proclaim to love diversity are in any rush to move to the most diverse continent on the planet either.

walshyn93

Samaris wrote: »

Er, genocide is kinda the opposite to multiculturalism. Multiculturalism allows for people from X different culture is live in proximity with a certain amount of commonality between them. Examples - London, many parts of the US and large cities, Ancient Rome, Germania, Viking Waterford.

Genocide is sorta the opposite, given it involves wiping out another race rather than living with them!

Edit: Yeah, the ancient Scots are of a different blood than the current ones too, walshyn93. Best thing to do to preserve is to only breed within your family. Ensure those nasty furrin genes are kept well out!

I mostly jest.

And how is that commonality achieved? You could argue that the Gauls lived peacefully with the Romans. Because the Gauls who didn't peacefully integrate were either enslaved or mass murdered. So yeah, multiculturalism works if you purge all the contrarian elements. This is why nation states worked.

walshyn93

What I don't get is how the same people often argue that we f'd up Africa by redrawing the map and putting the wrong tribes and factions in together and also argue that multiculturalism works and is a great thing. Pick one.

Samaris

walshyn93 wrote: »

And how is that commonality achieved? You could argue that the Gauls lived peacefully with the Romans. Because the Gauls who didn't peacefully integrate were either enslaved or mass murdered. So yeah, multiculturalism works if you purge all the contrarian elements. This is why nation states worked.

You could also argue that multiculturalism works when all those involved are willing to abide by the same rules. Of course if they really don't want to, there will be a war or purging as you put it. But you spoke yourself of those that peacefully integrated - multiculturalism, just like any other form of large social order, doesn't work 100% of the time, nor does it fail 100% of the time.

walshyn93 wrote: »

What I don't get is how the same people often argue that we f'd up Africa by redrawing the map and putting the wrong tribes and factions in together and also argue that multiculturalism works and is a great thing. Pick one.

Nothing to do with having large chunks of their tribal land removed into another country, ditto for their relatives, not to mention the sheer aggravation having some distant power arbitrarily decide this for them? All to do with exposure to another culture?