Custody Agreement

Buddad

Mods if this is wrong forum, please feel free to move.

Hi all,
A few months ago, myself and ex broke up. My son was 2 months old at the time. Since then I've had to fight constantly to have my son overnight. I literally get him for 24 hours a week. I pay maintenance weekly and am a devoted father.
I have children from a previous relationship and it's always been amicable, I had my children every weekend. It's a constant battle with my ex. I'm reluctant to go to court as I'd sooner try and arrange it between the two of us. At this point though she has my son around her new boyfriend after just a few months of seeing him. I believe given my son's young age and amount of time I get with him that this is totally inappropriate.

I'm thinking my best hope is to draw up a custody agreement, hope she will go along with it. If not I feel there is no other option to go to court.

Has anybody any experience with custody agreements. Have they got one in place? What are the kind of issues addressed within? I've heard of situations where both parents are forbidden from having partners around the child until an acceptable amount of time.

I'm really hoping for any advice any one can offer. Please feel free to PM me if you'd be more comfortable discussing this privately.

Many thanks in advance.

MountainAshIRL

Has she given any reason as to why she won't allow overnights, is she breastfeeding? The baby is still very young so I can understand why a mum would feel nervous about overnights at that age. Why don't you increase the amount of time you spend with baby during the day and then a little further down the line overnights would be OK

Big Bag of Chips

Buddad wrote: »

I've heard of situations where both parents are forbidden from having partners around the child until an acceptable amount of time.

That would be down to individuals involved to agree on. But there's no such thing as "forbidding". Within reason you cannot dictate what she does on her time, and who she introduces your child to. Same way as she will have no right to dictate to you.

Before going to court for any family matters, judges prefer for the couple to have tried mediation first. So drawing up an access agreement and going to mediation to discuss it and agree on it would be seen as a very positive step. Even if she refuses to go, the fact that you have suggested it and taken time to look into it will be noted by the judge.

There's no hard and fast rule when it comes to access. And there are no guarantees. Try mediation first, before going the court route. It's less "confrontational".

Buddad

MountainAshIRL wrote: »

Has she given any reason as to why she won't allow overnights, is she breastfeeding?

No she is not breastfeeding. She claims she can't be away from him for that long. However has no problem leaving him with others while she goes out drinking.

Before going to court for any family matters, judges prefer for the couple to have tried mediation first. So drawing up an access agreement and going to mediation to discuss it and agree on it would be seen as a very positive step. Even if she refuses to go, the fact that you have suggested it and taken time to look into it will be noted by the judge.

I was hoping to get her to agree to it, go to mediation to get it formalised. Court is my last resort. It's like banging my head against a wall trying to get her to see sense. So I want to get something specific in place to hopefully take any emotion out of the whole situation.

2xj3hplqgsbkym

Put your name down for free family mediation straight away as there is a waiting list. You don't need to get her to agree to custody atrangements beforehand the mediator will help you discuss that. You get up to 6 sessions.

I disagree with previous poster about overnight stays, you are as entitled to have the baby overnight as much as she is .

Buddad

Quentin Itchy Motorbike wrote: »

Put your name down for free family mediation straight away as there is a waiting list. You don't need to get her to agree to custody atrangements beforehand the mediator will help you discuss that. You get up to 6 sessions.

I disagree with previous poster about overnight stays, you are as entitled to have the baby overnight as much as she is .

Thanks very much for that info Rosebush. I will ring about meditation tomorrow.

I agree with your latter comment. Unfortunately the default mode is father's are not afforded the same rights as mother's in most areas.

Owryan

Hopefully you will work something out without having to go to court. Is the baby her only child? Maybe she doesn't feel able to let go. Don't try to score points about her being able to leave the baby to go for a drink, it will only cause problems.

I ve an informal agreement with my ex, despite issues between us we worked to stay out of court. It started out with one overnight a week and now I have them 4 days and 3 nights and one afternoon midweek.

I know and have worked with people who have court mandated access and have to go back to court if the arrangements are no longer working. Can get messy and expensive

Buddad

Owryan wrote: »

Hopefully you will work something out without having to go to court. Is the baby her only child? Maybe she doesn't feel able to let go. Don't try to score points about her being able to leave the baby to go for a drink, it will only cause problems.

I ve an informal agreement with my ex, despite issues between us we worked to stay out of court. It started out with one overnight a week and now I have them 4 days and 3 nights and one afternoon midweek.

I know and have worked with people who have court mandated access and have to go back to court if the arrangements are no longer working. Can get messy and expensive

I've been pushing the whole time for informal agreement Owryan. I have children from a previous marriage and this has always been the case and it has worked and been flexible for all concerned. I've appealed to her frequently that it doesn't have to be this difficult. Court is my last resort if this written agreement between us fails

Amantine

Children need a strong bond with one primary carer. He will also benefit if she has a strong bond with him. Let her have her babymoon. If you love your child and want the best for him make sure he has that strong bond. It can take up to a year to fully form. Children who are kept away from their primary carer overnight too soon end up having this bond with neither parent and it can have repercussions for the rest of their life. Once the kid is older you will have just a strong a bond as he has with his mother as long as you spend time with him and he feels safe and taken care of with you. Note that I said primary carer, not father or mother. While mothers are often suited to being the primary carer and breastfeeding is a big part of that, with its release of oxytocin, the bonding hormone in both mother and child, sometimes that role is better left to a very caring father. It's a big sacrifice though, both in time, emotional energy and come with lots of sleep deprivation. The primary carer who does a good job deserves the uttermost respect and support where possible.
The courts know all of this and will always try to do what is best for the child. They probably will not agree to you taking such a young baby overnight. I would definitely apply for guadianship though or just ask her if she will give it to you without having to go to court. Also ask for access during the day. Like I said, in time the child will bond just a strongly with the non primary carer as long as the child feels safe. If you absolutely feel she is not suited to the job and have valid reasons for your concerns, then you could fight for custody. But you will need rock solid evidence and show that you can do a better job. Good luck!

Big Bag of Chips

Amantine wrote: »

Children need a strong bond with one primary carer. He will also benefit if she has a strong bond with him. Let her have her babymoon. If you love your child and want the best for him make sure he has that strong bond. It can take up to a year to fully form. Children who are kept away from their primary carer overnight too soon end up having this bond with neither parent and it can have repercussions for the rest of their life. Once the kid is older you will have just a strong a bond as he has with his mother as long as you spend time with him and he feels safe and taken care of with you.

This is all very interesting. Do you have any links to the study that has proven this? It's just I ask why it's more important for a baby to be kept exclusively over night with one parent. And how you can guarantee that after a specific length of time of being kept away from one parent, that the baby will then have "just a strong bond" with them.

I ask, because I've never heard it. I've heard of plenty situations where the mother refuses to hand over the baby because it's "too early". Then as the baby gets older they are still kept from the dad because "they are not used to your place". I have friends who adopted an 11 month old baby. They first met him at 9 months. Removed him totally from the care of his primary carer up to that point. He is now 4, and has a wonderful bond with both parents, and has no memory of his first primary carer. I also have friends who adopted their 11 year old daughter at 18 months from an orphanage in another country. That child never had a primary carer, until she came home with them. She hasn't shown any signs of suffering because of it. And has a lovely bond with both of her parents.

It sounds like amateur psychoanalysis, used to qustify mothers who use their children as some sort of weapon against the fathers. A baby will be fine anywhere so long as they are loved and cared for. In the early days it doesn't matter a whole lot who's doing the caring! As they get older they can often become clingy to the primary carer. So I would have thought it was best to get the baby used to being with both parents, from as early as possible?

Amantine

Thank you for finding my post interesting.
Here is the study: https://www.ag.gov.au/FamiliesAndMarriage/Families/FamilyViolence/Documents/Post%20separation%20parenting%20arrangements%20and%20developmental%20outcomes%20for%20infants%20and%20children.pdf

It's not about the father's or the mother's rights, it's about what is best for a child. Any empathic parent who truly loves their child will understand that. Whereas personality disordered parents of either sex will keep fighting irrespective of the damage it causes to the child, because to them it's not about their child, it's about having THEIR rights respected.

The baby will be used to both parents if both parents spend time with their child. No judge will refuse you daytime access to your child if you are a good parent. And they most certainly will allow overnight access too when the child is older.
And separation anxiety will happen anyway, as long as the child is bonded. It's part of normal healthy development.

Big Bag of Chips

And here's another link where it claims that overnight access is important for the baby to establish and maintain a bond with the non resident parent.


https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/co-parenting-after-divorce/201303/co-parenting-infants-and-very-young-children

Especially when children are very young, their interactions with both of their parents need to be regular and routine, and they need to be protected from exposure to parental conflict, if they are to develop and maintain safe and secure primary attachments with each of their parents.

Most children in two-parent families today form primary attachments to both of their parents at the same stage in their development. Parent-infant relationships spanning a range of activities and contexts, with separations minimized, are vital to preserving these primary attachments, as parents who do not interact regularly with their infants and toddlers effectively become strangers. Divorce presents special challenges in these situations. According to current attachment research, after divorce, evenings and overnights provide opportunities for crucial social interactions and nurturing activities that access “visits” cannot provide, including bathing, soothing hurts and anxieties, bedtime rituals, comforting in the middle of the night, and the reassurance and security of snuggling in the morning after awakening. These everyday activities create and maintain children’s trust and confidence in their parents, while deepening and strengthening parent-child bonds.

For every study that proves something, there's another that proves a different angle. When it comes to dealing with people, then nothing can be said as fact. There are too many other factors to be able to say for definite that it is bad for the baby to have overnights with it's dad. External factors would include personality/temperament of the baby, environment - how relaxed or otherwise both parents are, atmosphere etc. How a baby/child reacts to certain situations depends very much so on the attitude of the adults around them. That is why nothing can be taken as given. I would suggest at least trying the baby on overnights with the dad at first. If it turns out that the baby is fretting or upset missing their mother, then overnights can be put on hold for a while. If the baby seems fine with it, then there's no reason to not allow overnights to go ahead.

Babies and children go through so many phases of being happy or not with particular situations that it is silly to put a blanket ban on overnights for say a year on every child in every situation. Each case should be looked at on it's own merits. There are mothers who work nights, whose babies are obviously kept away from them at night time. Parents should always be flexible and be willing to put their own differences aside to try to what's best for their child. And that doesn't just mean that mam/primary carer gets final say, and the other parent has to be the one to always compromise. Until you try something with a baby, you cannot guarantee it won't work. By all means if after trying it a couple of times it is obvious the baby is not happy, then wait a few months before trying again.

And nothing is guaranteed in court!

Buddad

Amantine wrote: »

Children need a strong bond with one primary carer. He will also benefit if she has a strong bond with him. Let her have her babymoon. If you love your child and want the best for him make sure he has that strong bond. It can take up to a year to fully form. Children who are kept away from their primary carer overnight too soon end up having this bond with neither parent and it can have repercussions for the rest of their life. Once the kid is older you will have just a strong a bond as he has with his mother as long as you spend time with him and he feels safe and taken care of with you. Note that I said primary carer, not father or mother. While mothers are often suited to being the primary carer and breastfeeding is a big part of that, with its release of oxytocin, the bonding hormone in both mother and child, sometimes that role is better left to a very caring father. It's a big sacrifice though, both in time, emotional energy and come with lots of sleep deprivation. The primary carer who does a good job deserves the uttermost respect and support where possible.
The courts know all of this and will always try to do what is best for the child. They probably will not agree to you taking such a young baby overnight. I would definitely apply for guadianship though or just ask her if she will give it to you without having to go to court. Also ask for access during the day. Like I said, in time the child will bond just a strongly with the non primary carer as long as the child feels safe. If you absolutely feel she is not suited to the job and have valid reasons for your concerns, then you could fight for custody. But you will need rock solid evidence and show that you can do a better job. Good luck!

I work in the field of psychology and I'm strongly versed in attachment theory. I'm also very aware of the correlation between the attachment style of the "primary carer" and the child which is why in my personal case I'm so adamant about having so much more than 24 hours a week with my son.

Buddad

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

And here's another link where it claims that overnight access is important for the baby to establish and maintain a bond with the non resident parent.


For every study that proves something, there's another that proves a different angle. When it comes to dealing with people, then nothing can be said as fact. There are too many other factors to be able to say for definite that it is bad for the baby to have overnights with it's dad. External factors would include personality/temperament of the baby, environment - how relaxed or otherwise both parents are, atmosphere etc. How a baby/child reacts to certain situations depends very much so on the attitude of the adults around them. That is why nothing can be taken as given. I would suggest at least trying the baby on overnights with the dad at first. If it turns out that the baby is fretting or upset missing their mother, then overnights can be put on hold for a while. If the baby seems fine with it, then there's no reason to not allow overnights to go ahead.

Babies and children go through so many phases of being happy or not with particular situations that it is silly to put a blanket ban on overnights for say a year on every child in every situation. Each case should be looked at on it's own merits. There are mothers who work nights, whose babies are obviously kept away from them at night time. Parents should always be flexible and be willing to put their own differences aside to try to what's best for their child. And that doesn't just mean that mam/primary carer gets final say, and the other parent has to be the one to always compromise. Until you try something with a baby, you cannot guarantee it won't work. By all means if after trying it a couple of times it is obvious the baby is not happy, then wait a few months before trying again.

And nothing is guaranteed in court!

Thanks so much for sharing that article Big Bag of Chips. I would indeed buy you a Big Bag of Chips for that

Big Bag of Chips

Plenty of salt and vinegar, please!

Buddad

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

Plenty of salt and vinegar, please!

Well, yeah, of course. What do you take me for? Some sort of animal that doesn't allow for plenty of salt and vinegar on a big bag of chips!?

Mindset

Im curious as to what your issue is, you say your child is only a few months old so perhaps your ex is still breastfeedng, or your ex is concentrating less on you and your needs and wants and more on her newborn. I presume she's now on her own with your new child and that is hard, sleepless nights etc.....
If she is seeing someone else and has introduced her child to him already, whats the problem? It doesn't change your status as father if your ex has introduced your child to someone she is seeing.
Why, can i ask did you break up? Were you living together or had you been together long? I guess it doesn't matter but my suggestion is you leave her alone instead of threatening court action. The first 6 months of a babies life is a precious time and really a baby just needs to be loved and cared for, separation from their primary carer is not advised so young, in my opinion overnights shouldn't happen until they are much older, say 2 or 3 depending on the child.
my advice? back the hell off and just spend time with your baby when its appropriate, you don't have to take the baby to yours overnight to bond with him.

Buddad

Mindset wrote: »

Im curious as to what your issue is, you say your child is only a few months old so perhaps your ex is still breastfeedng, or your ex is concentrating less on you and your needs and wants and more on her newborn. I presume she's now on her own with your new child and that is hard, sleepless nights etc.....
If she is seeing someone else and has introduced her child to him already, whats the problem? It doesn't change your status as father if your ex has introduced your child to someone she is seeing.
Why, can i ask did you break up? Were you living together or had you been together long? I guess it doesn't matter but my suggestion is you leave her alone instead of threatening court action. The first 6 months of a babies life is a precious time and really a baby just needs to be loved and cared for, separation from their primary carer is not advised so young, in my opinion overnights shouldn't happen until they are much older, say 2 or 3 depending on the child.
my advice? back the hell off and just spend time with your baby when its appropriate, you don't have to take the baby to yours overnight to bond with him.

You clearly have your own biased opinion on this and I was not looking for that. I asked for advice on custody agreements. Some of your questions have been answered previously, eg. she is not breastfeeding.

Exactly! The first 6 months is a precious time so why should I be denied that time as well? I was/ am one of the child's primary carers. If you noticed in a previous thread I mentioned I work in the field of psychology and am very well versed in attachment. On what factual basis is your opinion that children shouldn't be allowed overnights until 2 - 3? Or is that just personal opinion? Bag of Chips also provided a link to studies demonstrating how actually important overnight stays are.

Why in God's name would I back the hell off and not try to play an active part in my child's emotional and psychological development at such a developmentally crucial age? The fact that I have tried multiple amicable ways to resolve this issue and have mentioned court as a last resort demonstrates the entire problem - that a father has to proceed the legal route to be "allowed" more than 24 hours a week with his son.

Mindset

Im not biased and you did ask for advise. My advice was to back off for now while he's so young. Im sorry if that came across as blunt but all I'm trying to say is, you can be an active part of your babys emotional and psychological development by maybe offering to mind the baby at your ex's while she goes out. Say you'll mind him/her a few times a week at hers, that'll mean your ex gets a break and you get to be with your baby. Or help out rather than being so intense and demanding about your rights and ownership to your child. Thats the last thing your baby needs or its mother. I think its great that you want to be involved but try to remember you can't and shouldn't try to split a child in two to satisfy your rights. Being a dad isn't about that its about being there for everything, helping not hassling. with time and maybe when your ex hormones have calmed down and life becomes a little bit normal(or baby sleeps through the night) you can start thinking about overnights.

Mindset

and you didn't address my other questions btw, so were you living together long? or even in the relationship long when she got pregnant? why did you break up? Maybe your ex didn't plan on being left holding baby on her own and is feeling alone and overwhelmed right now.
fair enough about the breastfeeding thats ok but its still round the clock feeding, burping, changing and if its her first she will be very protective of her baby and might not want to hand it over just yet. Im just saying its not all about you, which it sounds a little bit like you are looking for a pity party. just saying!!

Dravokivich

OP, a Mediator will only be able to provide some guidance on contentious issues and try to keep a discussion on track. If there is conflict, they are not generally going to be in a position to to stipulate a resolution. There is also nothing to force your ex-partner to come to the table, nor to engage.

I'd advise it is best you prepare yourself in advance what's needed regarding court applications.

By my reading of it, your issues would mainly be Access and Maintenance. I think Guardianship should be assumed for you if the child was born since early January, may require you being able to establish the relationship you had with your ex-partner prior to splitting up.

However I wouldn't, nor would I expect my ex-partner to be paying maintenance without a court order for it. You could be setting an expectation that is above what is required/needed.

Amantine wrote: »

Children need a strong bond with one primary carer. He will also benefit if she has a strong bond with him. Let her have her babymoon. If you love your child and want the best for him make sure he has that strong bond. It can take up to a year to fully form.

You are either ignoring or didn't notice one very critical point in all this. The OP's ex-partner as far as we are aware is in relationship with another man. Who by association with the mother will be more present to the child, than the actual father. Spout whatever nonsense you want about "the mothers babymoon," where willing the child should have as much access to both parents as practical.

You ramble on further about what's right for the child, yet don't seem to be too keen on it.

Mindset wrote: »

Im not biased and you did ask for advise. My advice was to back off for now while he's so young. Im sorry if that came across as blunt but all I'm trying to say is, you can be an active part of your babys emotional and psychological development by maybe offering to mind the baby at your ex's while she goes out. Say you'll mind him/her a few times a week at hers, that'll mean your ex gets a break and you get to be with your baby. Or help out rather than being so intense and demanding about your rights and ownership to your child. Thats the last thing your baby needs or its mother. I think its great that you want to be involved but try to remember you can't and shouldn't try to split a child in two to satisfy your rights. Being a dad isn't about that its about being there for everything, helping not hassling. with time and maybe when your ex hormones have calmed down and life becomes a little bit normal(or baby sleeps through the night) you can start thinking about overnights.

You're not biased, you think the child of separated parents shouldn't spend much time with the father? Why should it need to be done through the mother? at the mothers? Where the father will be restricted?

Mindset wrote: »

and you didn't address my other questions btw, so were you living together long? or even in the relationship long when she got pregnant? why did you break up? Maybe your ex didn't plan on being left holding baby on her own and is feeling alone and overwhelmed right now.
fair enough about the breastfeeding thats ok but its still round the clock feeding, burping, changing and if its her first she will be very protective of her baby and might not want to hand it over just yet. Im just saying its not all about you, which it sounds a little bit like you are looking for a pity party. just saying!!

Frankly that's all none of our business. All we are concerned here is with 2 parents, one preventing the other from being able to act as such.

Big Bag of Chips

Mindset wrote: »

if its her first she will be very protective of her baby and might not want to hand it over just yet.

Are you saying it's ok for a mother to just not "want" to hand their baby over to the care of the father? And the father should accept that and back off?

Im just saying its not all about you

Nor is it all about the mother.

There is no real reason to not at least try overnight access. If it turns out that the baby is indeed fretting from being away from the primary carer then obviously the most sensible thing to do, for the baby, is hold off on overnights for a while.

Edit: It is also worth noting that the child has siblings, and everything should be done to foster a bond there too. As mentioned each case should be taken on it's own merits, and in this case I think overnights with the child's family (father and siblings) should be given a chance, rather than bowing to the over protective mother who doesn't want to share her baby. I post this as a mother, by the way!

Mindset

Well i hope it all works out. Mediation is an option but it has to be mutually agreed upon, if you do decide to do mediation, find a good one that you both like. It'll be worth it in the end. Courts a bad idea and should only be a last resort like if you weren't able to see your baby at all, ever.
Now there are practical bits too, do you have guardianship rights? Are you on the birth cert? Have you discussed paying maintenance or contributing etc?
If you are feeling cut out i would keep trying to see your baby as much as possible and keep it as regular as you can, get guardianship and pay maintenance and get on the birth cert of you're not already. all of these things will go in your favour if you do take court action.
I hope you don't have to, like i said I would just back off for now and get all your cards in order, be with your baby as much as you are let and then maybe with time its gets easy between you and the overnights will start.
I genuinely wish you luck and congrats on becoming a father, its amazing!!

Monife

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

As they get older they can often become clingy to the primary carer. So I would have thought it was best to get the baby used to being with both parents, from as early as possible?

This is definitely true from personal experience. My parents separated when I was 6 and my mum had me most of the time. I developed an unnatural clingy-ness to her to the point that I thought she was going to die every time she left me or I left her and I had reoccurring nightmares every night of her dying.