rent bouncing back

AvonEnniskerry

Hi I usually pay my rent by standing order. However the last 2 months it has bounced back. My landlord had not contacted me in relation to a change of account. He lives in Australia and I pay into an Irish account. I'll have to contact him today... I can prove the payments were completed on my side... Am I liable to pay it back in full even though it's not my mistake and I've had to approach him??
I know the answer is yes but I'm just chancing my arm.


Edit: it just annoys me because he's failed to be a decent landlord and now I've to chase him up for payment!

aido79

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

Hi I usually pay my rent by standing order. However the last 2 months it has bounced back. My landlord had not contacted me in relation to a change of account. He lives in Australia and I pay into an Irish account. I'll have to contact him today... I can prove the payments were completed on my side... Am I liable to pay it back in full even though it's not my mistake and I've had to approach him??
I know the answer is yes but I'm just chancing my arm.


Edit: it just annoys me because he's failed to be a decent landlord and now I've to chase him up for payment!

Why do you instantly aussume he is a bad landlord and it is not a mistake on behalf of the bank?
Are you sure you have his account details correct?

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

athtrasna

Yes you are liable and ideally should put the bounced rent in a separate account so that it's there when the landlord comes looking for it.

Incidentally are you forwarding 20% direct to revenue? Knowing that your landlord is abroad and paying into his account would indicate that he doesn't have an Irish agent and therefore you should be paying 20% of the rent to revenue.

uck51js9zml2yt

Why would you think you don't have to pay your rent?
Have you asked your bank about the problem?

Mrs OBumble

OP, he might have died and the bank frozen his accounts. Just so you're aware ...

AvonEnniskerry

aido79 wrote:

Why do you instantly aussume he is a bad landlord and it is not a mistake on behalf of the bank? Are you sure you have his account details correct?

Because I've been in this accommodation for over 4 years. So experience tells me that.
He is not dead, his brother lives beside us.

I have not been paying anything to revenue. Would have assumed that's his problem. Not mine... But file a return every year.

My bank can't confirm why or where the money is coming from as its across banks and returned with no details... His bank have stated if they were to have taken control of the property that the rent would not have stopped...

AvonEnniskerry

Tatum Agreeable Flowerbed wrote:

Why would you think you don't have to pay your rent? Have you asked your bank about the problem?

Because it's not my mistake. My rent has been coming out. Transaction competed each time. Though it's being returned. I am also aware that I was chancing my arm here but don't see why I should have to backdate their error

AvonEnniskerry

athtrasna wrote:

Yes you are liable and ideally should put the bounced rent in a separate account so that it's there when the landlord comes looking for it.

Have been doing this... And contacted landlord...

El Chapo

athtrasna wrote: »

Yes you are liable and ideally should put the bounced rent in a separate account so that it's there when the landlord comes looking for it.

Incidentally are you forwarding 20% direct to revenue? Knowing that your landlord is abroad and paying into his account would indicate that he doesn't have an Irish agent and therefore you should be paying 20% of the rent to revenue.

You want the tenant to sort out the landlord's tax affairs as well as chasing him/her up to actually pay their rent?

Good Lord..

BreadnBuddha

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

Because it's not my mistake. My rent has been coming out. Transaction competed each time. Though it's being returned. I am also aware that I was chancing my arm here but don't see why I should have to backdate their error

Paying the rent you owe is not backdating their error. Would you ever cop on to yourself!

testicles

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davo2001

A lot of people on very high horses in here, sorting out the landlords tax affairs? Get real FFS!

OP, it's the landlords problem, not yours. Keep the money aside, he will come for it sooner or later.

SB_Part2

Unfortunately OP you will still have to pay the rent and it's up to you as well to pay the 20% to revenue.

I got caught out with this once. Same as you my landlord lived in Austrailia but i paid into his Irish Bank account. It started bouncing and when I came here for advice I was made aware of the 20% I should have been giving to revenue. I left shortly afterwards because I had enough things to be worrying about.

Boater123

El Chapo wrote: »

You want the tenant to sort out the landlord's tax affairs as well as chasing him/her up to actually pay their rent?

Good Lord..

Athtrasna gave good advice, if the LL has no agent in Ireland collecting the rent and the tenant pays rent directly to a LL living abroad, then that's what they're supposed to do.

AvonEnniskerry

testicles wrote:

This post has been deleted.

This is mad... Am I supposed to be deducting it from my total rent or adding it on? Not much of an incentive to rent either way. I'm pretty sure if I deducted it I'd be kicked out on my arse.
I've rented previously with another Australian landlord and never had problems contacting him etc.

intheclouds

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

This is mad... Am I supposed to be deducting it from my total rent or adding it on? Not much of an incentive to rent either way. I'm pretty sure if I deducted it I'd be kicked out on my arse.
I've rented previously with another Australian landlord and never had problems contacting him etc.

You are supposed to be deducting from the total rent and sending it to revenue.

It does seem a bit mad to me too but its the way it is.

Toots

Have you tried asking his brother to get in touch with him?

AvonEnniskerry

Toots wrote:

Have you tried asking his brother to get in touch with him?

Done that this morning... It's just a waiting game now...

StupidLikeAFox

Maybe his bank account is full and can't take anymore money

davo2001

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Maybe his bank account is full and can't take anymore money

Hate it when that happens :pac: :pac:

bren2002

While technically you're responsible for the 20%. In practice I don't think revenue are actively perusing tenants for it.

intheclouds

bren2002 wrote: »

While technically you're responsible for the 20%. In practice I don't think revenue are actively perusing tenants for it.

They certainly are and they certainly do.

intheclouds

davo2001 wrote: »

Username checks out. j/k

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it70.html#section21

What If Your Landlord Is Not Resident In The State?

If your landlord resides outside the Republic of Ireland (the State) and you pay rent directly to them or to their bank account either in the State or abroad, you must deduct income tax at the standard rate of tax (currently 20%) from the gross rents payable.

Failure to deduct tax may leave you liable for the tax that should have been deducted.

confusedguy1

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

Because it's not my mistake. My rent has been coming out. Transaction competed each time. Though it's being returned. I am also aware that I was chancing my arm here but don't see why I should have to backdate their error

Your attitude really angers me - this consistant "sure feck the landlord, I'll save what I can from him/her". I had a similiar attitude from a tenant I am currently pursuing via the PRTB for unpaid rent, bills and missing goods. She claimed that she lodged cash to my account and "the bank must have misplaced the money". I was away travelling at the time and only noticed it at a later date. She then claimed that as she was not informed straight away that she wasn't obliged to pay anything.

You agree to rent somewhere, you pay your rent. Cop on to yourself.

Timmyr

davo2001 wrote: »

A lot of people on very high horses in here, sorting out the landlords tax affairs? Get real FFS!

OP, it's the landlords problem, not yours. Keep the money aside, he will come for it sooner or later.

I'm afraid it has very little to do with the horses, it's the law.

It most certainly is the tenants problem, you should notify revenue asap and they may be lenient, if you are found out you will be responsible for paying 20% of the rent you have paid so far.

Ignorantia juris non excusat

Boater123

According to the revenue, the tenant is "obliged" to make the deduction, but are not deemed "a chargeable person".

Where rents are paid directly to a person whose usual place of abode is outside the State, the tenant is obliged to deduct income tax at the standard rate fromthe payment (section 1041 TCA 1997).

2.1 Tenant:
The tenant should deduct tax from the rent at the standard rate and
account for this tax to Revenue. Strictly, the tenant should account for
the tax in question immediately after it is deducted.

Note:
1. The obligation to deduct tax on payment of rents does not
make the tenant a chargeable person (section 959A TCA
1997

2.2 Residential lettings
In the case of residential lettings, tenants may not be aware of their
obligation to deduct tax. This can occur either because the tenants are
unaware that the landlord is resident abroad or because the tenants are
unaware of the obligation to deduct tax when making payment to such
a landlord.
In this scenario, the tenant should be asked to provide the following
details as regards the landlord:
 Name and address
 Details of the bank account into which rent is paid (name and
address of the bank and the account number into which the
payments are made)
 Details of the rents paid to the non-resident landlord for all years
for which the landlord was resident abroad.
An assessment can be entered on the landlord, at his or her foreign
address, and where necessary powers of attachment under section 1002
TCA 1997 can be used to enforce collection of the tax due.

The tenant should be advised to deduct tax from all future
payments to the landlord.

Boater123

intheclouds wrote: »

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it70.html#section21

Only read this now, seems to conflict the other guidelines given by the revenue.

Timmyr

Boater123 wrote: »

According to the revenue, the tenant is "obliged" to make the deduction, but are not deemed "a chargeable person".[/I]

Yes, because in theory it is not costing the tenant

FishOnABike

I'd suggest the money bounced back from your standing orders should be set aside to cover any liability you may have with revenue.

Is the landlord's account with an Irish bank or a foreign bank ?

It might be better to come to some agreement - a written one, updating the lease, having his brother appointed as an agent to pay the rent to. This should take you out of the loop regarding the 20% due to revenue. (This is deducted from the gross rental amount, landlord gets 80%, revenue get 20%)

It would take more informtion and the input of a tax advisor to be clear on what the right thing to do is. Is the landlord permanently living abroad or is it short term? He could possibly still be tax resident in Ireland if he spends a minimum number of days in the country.

I'm not an accountant or a tax advisor but I'd be happer in your situation if I was paying rent to an Irish resident agent so any potential problems would not be mine.

aido79

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

Because I've been in this accommodation for over 4 years. So experience tells me that.
He is not dead, his brother lives beside us.

I have not been paying anything to revenue. Would have assumed that's his problem. Not mine... But file a return every year.

My bank can't confirm why or where the money is coming from as its across banks and returned with no details... His bank have stated if they were to have taken control of the property that the rent would not have stopped...

Ok. You didn't give the full story in your OP but I still think you need to get in touch with your landlord to find out what the problem is.

From a revenue point of view it is your responsibility to deduct 20% of the rent as your landlord is living abroad. You are then supposed to forward this to revenue. I know it's ridiculous but that's how it is supposed to work. If revenue look into it they will chase you for the money not your landlord.

TheDoc

Separately on the tax point, that is a nonsense.

Some grave assumptions here that the landlord is not managing his own tax affairs, or has something in place where Revenue are receiving their relevant fees. Incredible that the first respones here are "YOU NEED TO PAY THIS PAY REVENUE".

First port of call here, if the OP cares(fully understand if he/she doesnt) is to ask the landlord if they have an arrangement for the Revenue segment of rent. And if the OP has been living there four years while this landlord is abroad, either the landlord has his **** together, or the OP doesnt care(which is perfectly fine in my book)

Timmyr

TheDoc wrote: »

Separately on the tax point, that is a nonsense.

Some grave assumptions here that the landlord is not managing his own tax affairs, or has something in place where Revenue are receiving their relevant fees. Incredible that the first respones here are "YOU NEED TO PAY THIS PAY REVENUE".

First port of call here, if the OP cares(fully understand if he/she doesnt) is to ask the landlord if they have an arrangement for the Revenue segment of rent. And if the OP has been living there four years while this landlord is abroad, either the landlord has his **** together, or the OP doesnt care(which is perfectly fine in my book)

Wow the amount of people on here that are ignorant to our tax laws amazes me, this is not the landlords responsibility to manage!!

While it may be perfectly fine in your book, I'm going to assume revenue agents are reading a different book

Timmyr

Believe me OP this is an issue you should try to sort immediately.

I am an Accountant (ACCA) and Tax Advisor (AITI) if you need any info feel free to PM me

tina1040

How are you supposed to know where your landlord lives? Or if they move abroad during the tenancy?

It's all very well saying it's the tenant's responsibility but how does that work in the real world?

I've been a landlord (in Ireland) for many years and for privacy and safety reasons I have never given my home address to a tenant. My tenant's would not know if I moved out of Ireland once the payments were still going to the same bank account as always.

TheDoc

Timmyr wrote: »

Wow the amount of people on here that are ignorant to our tax laws amazes me, this is not the landlords responsibility to manage!!

While it may be perfectly fine in your book, I'm going to assume revenue agents are reading a different book

They can read whatever book they want to be honest.

To insinuate that a tenant is responsible for a third parties tax affairs is nonsense.

Appreciate your reading the letter of the law, would fully appreciate any sort of sources indicating where a tenant was actually found liable for this.

It's a different matter where Revenue get in touch, tenant advises landlord, and it gets sorted out.

Again, I'm not disputing what your saying is the law, but the practicalities and process around it I doubt is as black and white as some are making out.

intheclouds

TheDoc wrote: »

They can read whatever book they want to be honest.

To insinuate that a tenant is responsible for a third parties tax affairs is nonsense.

Appreciate your reading the letter of the law, would fully appreciate any sort of sources indicating where a tenant was actually found liable for this.

It's a different matter where Revenue get in touch, tenant advises landlord, and it gets sorted out.

Again, I'm not disputing what your saying is the law, but the practicalities and process around it I doubt is as black and white as some are making out.

I already provided the link for Citizens Info on it.

nompere

TheDoc wrote: »

They can read whatever book they want to be honest.

To insinuate that a tenant is responsible for a third parties tax affairs is nonsense.

Appreciate your reading the letter of the law, would fully appreciate any sort of sources indicating where a tenant was actually found liable for this.

It's a different matter where Revenue get in touch, tenant advises landlord, and it gets sorted out.

Again, I'm not disputing what your saying is the law, but the practicalities and process around it I doubt is as black and white as some are making out.

Here's a link to the Ombudsman's report of 2009, in which he makes the point that this is something the Ombudsman's office has been fighting since 1998.

https://www.ombudsman.gov.ie/en/Publications/Annual-Reports/2009-Annual-Report/AnnualReport2009/chapter6.html#s2

It's still unresolved, and S.1041 Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 remains in place.

wersal gummage

tina1040 wrote: »

How are you supposed to know where your landlord lives?...

I've been a landlord (in Ireland) for many years and...... I have never given my home address to a tenant.

Open to correction but I understand that you are in breach of your legal obligations here.

Henry Ford III

TheDoc wrote: »

They can read whatever book they want to be honest.

To insinuate that a tenant is responsible for a third parties tax affairs is nonsense.

Appreciate your reading the letter of the law, would fully appreciate any sort of sources indicating where a tenant was actually found liable for this.

It's a different matter where Revenue get in touch, tenant advises landlord, and it gets sorted out.

Again, I'm not disputing what your saying is the law, but the practicalities and process around it I doubt is as black and white as some are making out.

They aren't. A tenant however is responsible for witholding and paying over tax from rent payable to a non resident. It's absolutely black and white.

The_Conductor

El Chapo wrote: »

You want the tenant to sort out the landlord's tax affairs as well as chasing him/her up to actually pay their rent?

Good Lord..

Its the law- its not that anyone wants the OP (or anyone else) to do it- once you are renting from a non-resident landlord- you are supposed to deduct a straight 20% witholding tax- and forward it to Revenue.

Lady is a tramp

So I'm just curious, I was renting a house a couple of years back through an estate agency. I never spoke to or dealt with the owner of the house, but the estate agent mentioned in passing once that the owner was Irish but lived in Australia. As per the contract I signed, I paid X amount per month into the landlord's bank account (which was in an Irish bank.)

I was aware of the fact that 20% should have been paid directly to Revenue ... however I never bothered doing this. There was nothing in writing, i.e. no evidence that I was even aware that the landlord lived abroad.

Could I have been pursued for the 20% in this situation, or would the estate agent be liable? I mean, this must be a common enough situation when renting through an agency, that the tenants know nothing about the landlord or where the landlord lives?

The_Conductor

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

Could I have been pursued for the 20% in this situation, or would the estate agent be liable? I mean, this must be a common enough situation when renting through an agency, that the tenants know nothing about the landlord or where the landlord lives?

Yes- you are liable- yes, you could have been pursued.

Timmyr

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

So I'm just curious, I was renting a house a couple of years back through an estate agency. I never spoke to or dealt with the owner of the house, but the estate agent mentioned in passing once that the owner was Irish but lived in Australia. As per the contract I signed, I paid X amount per month into the landlord's bank account (which was in an Irish bank.)

I was aware of the fact that 20% should have been paid directly to Revenue ... however I never bothered doing this. There was nothing in writing, i.e. no evidence that I was even aware that the landlord lived abroad.

Could I have been pursued for the 20% in this situation, or would the estate agent be liable? I mean, this must be a common enough situation when renting through an agency, that the tenants know nothing about the landlord or where the landlord lives?

As you dealt through an agent it was not your responsibility

Fian

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

So I'm just curious, I was renting a house a couple of years back through an estate agency. I never spoke to or dealt with the owner of the house, but the estate agent mentioned in passing once that the owner was Irish but lived in Australia. As per the contract I signed, I paid X amount per month into the landlord's bank account (which was in an Irish bank.)

I was aware of the fact that 20% should have been paid directly to Revenue ... however I never bothered doing this. There was nothing in writing, i.e. no evidence that I was even aware that the landlord lived abroad.

Could I have been pursued for the 20% in this situation, or would the estate agent be liable? I mean, this must be a common enough situation when renting through an agency, that the tenants know nothing about the landlord or where the landlord lives?

No, not if you were dealing with an Irish agent.

This obligation arises where a non-resident landlord is managing a tenancy in ireland directly. If they have an agent the agent is responsible. Generally to avoid hassle (for themselves and for the tenant) most foreign resident landlords use an Irish agent.

This is an anti-tax avoidance measure. Non-residents/foreign citizens remain liable to Irish tax in respect of income arising from Irish property. However it could be difficult/uneconomic for revenue to chase a non-resident landlord for this tax. Therefore they have instituted a quasi "withholding tax" framework whereby 20% of the rent is deducted at source by the tenant and paid to revenue.

The Landlord cannot seek to evict for non-payment of rent because a tenant makes this (legally required) deduction. Anymore than an employee can sue their employer for the PAYE taxes deducted from their before tax income.

The_Conductor

Timmyr wrote: »

As you dealt through an agent it was not your responsibility

Depends on what kind of an agent........
'Lady is a tramp' said she was paying directly into the landlord's bank account.
If an agent was appointed to manage a property for a non-resident landlord- the tenant most certainly would not be doing this- they would be paying the rent to the agent, who would fulfill the landlords tax obligations, manage the tenancy, do repairs etc etc- and forward the balance to the landlord's account.........

It is not a regular or normal situation- to pay rent into a landlords bank account- if the landlord is non-resident- it would normally be paid to an agent........

And once again- I think this is a grossly unfair burden to place on a tenant- indeed its highly irrational that a tenant would have this obligation placed on them- however, it is the law.......... Its come up in the Dáil several times over the last 15 years- and has also been discussed numerous times in committee. It is still the law nonetheless.

Lady is a tramp

The_Conductor wrote: »

Yes- you are liable- yes, you could have been pursued.

But - technically speaking - I had no way of knowing that I was liable ... I didn't even know the landlord's name, and had no contact details for him!

The_Conductor

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

But - technically speaking - I had no way of knowing that I was liable ... I didn't even know the landlord's name, and had no contact details for him!

Thats an argument you'd have had to have with Revenue had they investigated the landlord........ Unfortunately- their point of view is that ignorance does not excuse you of your legal obligations.

I think as a law/rule its completely nuts- however, Revenue's viewpoint is that you're purchasing a service from an individual or an entity who are not tax resident in this jurisdiction- therefore- you are the liable party. You can try to plead ignorance to them- however, its not a good idea to try that approach with Revenue..........

Timmyr

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

But - technically speaking - I had no way of knowing that I was liable ... I didn't even know the landlord's name, and had no contact details for him!

Ignorantia juris non excusat

AvonEnniskerry

I've rented 3 different properties and only in one was I given landlords address. 2 have been with people who live in Australia. The first his parents were my contact throughout the whole tenancy, though I could contact him through email if required.

This one, when I viewed the property the landlord was present. Though his cousin showed it and managed the property through a phone she only used for the tenants. About a year ago she couldn't do it anymore so we were given contact details for our landlord at that point. A gmail account was set up and I was given an Australian contact number for my landlords new wife. But things failed to get resolved and they appointed someone else to do repairs etc. Since then they changed that person without informing me... And now my money is bouncing back.

My question wasn't really about either my own or the landlords tax affairs but about where I go from payments bouncing back as technically I am not paying my rent...

Also if I gave revenue 20% of my rent I am positive my rent would go up 20% to cover their costs. Or else they'd find a new tenant. I have no way of knowing about my landlords tax affairs and what he's doing. He's in contact with revenue as he paid the local property tax...

Henry Ford III

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

...Also if I gave revenue 20% of my rent I am positive my rent would go up 20% to cover their costs. Or else they'd find a new tenant. I have no way of knowing about my landlords tax affairs and what he's doing. He's in contact with revenue as he paid the local property tax...

That'd be incorrect. It's not allowed.

You need no nothing of your non resident landlords tax affairs - it's non of your business.

You still have an obligation to deduct and pay over the witholding tax however.