Landlord wont hand over a written notice

Micky8728

My landlord said we had to be out of his accommodation in one months time because he might renovate or sell the house. I asked to get written notice on paper of this but refused. We moved out anyway. I asked him again for this when handing over the keys but still he refused. I kept his last months rent until he does. He rang my girlfriend earlier saying we owr him rent for months and months even thou our rent book is upto date apart from last months. He told he she was no going to get anyeherr in life and slammed the door in our face esrlier when I tried to talk to him. What should we do next?

the_syco

Micky8728 wrote: »

I kept his last months rent until he does.

Well, don't bother with PTRB in that case, as it'd go against you.

The only reason you'd need the letter would be to bring him to the PTRB for an illegal eviction if he just re-lets the property. Thus, why would he give you the letter? Heck, you're now out, so another reason why he doesn't need to give you the letter.

Mrs OBumble

Micky8728 wrote: »

What should we do next?

Feel thankful that you were able to get another place without a landlord reference.

And pray (or whatever takes your fancy) that the next couple of times you move they won't be looking for references from your last three landlord.

davo2001

Has he given you your deposit back?

davo10

davo2001 wrote: »

Has he given you your deposit back?

Ah, the op skipped without paying the last month's rent, do you think the deposit should still be returned?

davo2001

davo10 wrote: »

Ah, the op skipped without paying the last month's rent, do you think the deposit should still be returned?

Well i was wondering if he kept the last months as he knew the LL wouldn't return the deposit.

weisses

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Feel thankful that you were able to get another place without a landlord reference.

And pray (or whatever takes your fancy) that the next couple of times you move they won't be looking for references from your last three landlord.

The way the rental market is going in this country people will be paying landlords for references

Is it so difficult for a LL to give a written notice ?

Eireog1

Why would the landlord give the deposit back the last months rent wasn't paid. I would guess that the landlord has some expenses as a result of the the tenants so he is out of pocket! Why would the landlord say they owe rent for months and months if this wasn't true? Sound funny to me!

_Kaiser_

davo10 wrote: »

Ah, the op skipped without paying the last month's rent, do you think the deposit should still be returned?

I love this forum..

We have what seems to have been an illegal eviction (MIGHT sell/renovate doesn't count as valid reasoning, and it wasn't in writing in any case which the LL REFUSED to do - probably because they knew that the OP could have legally stood their ground), and probably without the correct notice period being given anyway and yet it's the OP's fault that he kept the last month when (a) he hasn't gotten his deposit back anyway and (b) the LL appears to be acting like an abusive ass (insultign the OP's girlfriend and slamming doors in their face).

OP, forget about it and move on. Don't engage with him any further on it. If he's kept your deposit anyway then in reality you owe each other nothing at this stage. If anything the LL is lucky you didn't choose to fight him on the illegal eviction.

SB_Part2

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I love this forum..

We have what seems to have been an illegal eviction (MIGHT sell/renovate doesn't count as valid reasoning, and it wasn't in writing in any case which the LL REFUSED to do - probably because they knew that the OP could have legally stood their ground), and probably without the correct notice period being given anyway and yet it's the OP's fault that he kept the last month when (a) he hasn't gotten his deposit back anyway and (b) the LL appears to be acting like an abusive ass (insultign the OP's girlfriend and slamming doors in their face).

OP, forget about it and move on. Don't engage with him any further on it. If he's kept your deposit anyway then in reality you owe each other nothing at this stage. If anything the LL is lucky you didn't choose to fight him on the illegal eviction.

I think the problem is that RTB won't consider doing anything because the OP didn't pay their last months rent.

This is why people on this forum always recommend paying the last months rent so that if there is an issue RTB won't fob you off.

_Kaiser_

SB_Part2 wrote: »

I think the problem is that RTB won't consider doing anything because the OP didn't pay their last months rent.

This is why people on this forum always recommend paying the last months rent so that if there is an issue RTB won't fob you off.

That's all well and good if you have the time and money to pursue it - really a deposit should be handed over on the last day of the tenancy after an inspection in my view.

In this case the OP was (effectively) forced out of their home within a month, had to find another place (and the deposit, moving, and setup costs that come with that) and had a LL who was being very uncooperative by the sounds of it even though they (the OP) were under no legal obligation to facilitate him at all.

As I said, the OP could have contested the illegal eviction (not in writing and for a non-valid reason), the (I'm guessing) incorrect notice period, and possibly the expense incurred by having to move under these circumstances.

The LL has gotten away lightly IMO and would be best just shutting up at this point. They have the OP's deposit as the last month's rent so financially they haven't lost out at all, and the OP could have made things a lot harder.

This whole "just pay them regardless" idea - while it may be "the law" - is hard to swallow in the real world when you have a LL behaving as this one (allegedly) has. It's no wonder then that (some) tenants just go and keep the last month's rent as experience would have showed them that getting their deposit would be lot of a hassle anyway.

Micky8728

I never paid a deposit when I moved in. I told him I was keeping last months rent until he handed over written notice. I wanted it to show the rent allowance when applying because im now paying 200euro extra now for the house I moved into and its 150 more than os allowed in my area. I also had to fork out 1000 euro this month to get the house so I really dont see why ai should pay him when he was only giving us 1 month notice. I scrubed the house before we left and he was happy when handing over the key. He now has contacted my parents looking for money

You owe the chap a months rent, he's hardly going to give you a letter now you've moved out.

RossieMan

You can't rent over your rent allowance cap either.

the_syco

Micky8728 wrote: »

I never paid a deposit when I moved in. I told him I was keeping last months rent until he handed over written notice.

But since you're gone, he no longer needs to give you the letter.

Micky8728 wrote: »

I wanted it to show the rent allowance when applying because im now paying 200euro extra now for the house I moved into and its 150 more than os allowed in my area. I also had to fork out 1000 euro this month to get the house so I really dont see why ai should pay him when he was only giving us 1 month notice.

Whatever you're paying now means nowt to him.

athtrasna

RossieMan wrote: »

You can't rent over your rent allowance cap either.

Actually not quite true. In the statement announcing the new rent limits last week there was a line that said if you're paying more you should contact social protection and in most cases they will legitimise it. Most is the key word there

theteal

OP, you owe a months rent. People only keep the last months rent in case a LL plays sticky fingers with their deposit unfairly. You paid no deposit so why you kept the rent money is a bit baffling.....and pretty much just about theft.

A LL can open a PRTB dispute to claim unpaid rent can't he/she? I doubt he/she would due to the dodgy eviction in this case though

_Kaiser_

Micky8728 wrote: »

I never paid a deposit when I moved in. I told him I was keeping last months rent until he handed over written notice. I wanted it to show the rent allowance when applying because im now paying 200euro extra now for the house I moved into and its 150 more than os allowed in my area. I also had to fork out 1000 euro this month to get the house so I really dont see why ai should pay him when he was only giving us 1 month notice. I scrubed the house before we left and he was happy when handing over the key. He now has contacted my parents looking for money

Ah now to be fair OP you didn't tell us all that at the start.

As others have said above, in that case you do owe the guy the last month's rent - unless you had come to some agreement that by leaving without a fuss to suit him you could hold on to it.

Pay up I'm afraid.

SB_Part2

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Ah now to be fair OP you didn't tell us all that at the start.

As others have said above, in that case you do owe the guy the last month's rent - unless you had come to some agreement that by leaving without a fuss to suit him you could hold on to it.

Pay up I'm afraid.

I'd say even if the OP paid the landlord wouldn't give them a reference and TBH I wouldn't blame them.

_Kaiser_

SB_Part2 wrote: »

I'd say even if the OP paid the landlord wouldn't give them a reference and TBH I wouldn't blame them.

I'd be inclined to agree. It would also explain the LL's subsequent response. Can't really blame them for that either.

The correct way (IMO) to do it would have been to say to the LL "OK well if you want us out early then I'm going to need to keep the last month's rent to help with the costs of moving into a new place". If the LL had agreed then no issue. Sure it's not the "correct" process but if both sides are happy then I don't see an issue.

As it stands though the OP should definitely pay up.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Yeah think you owe a months rent here op. You don't even need the letter, you got a new place already. Just pay him what yoh owe and move on.

the_syco

You owe him cash, so I hope he brings a case against you in the PTRB.

davo10

Seems to be shortcomings by both parties, neither is going to win a case with RTA so probably best for both to accept the situation and move on.

borderlinemeath

The OP has withheld the last months rent, he has also stated he is an RA recipient, so technically he has fraudulently held onto DSPs payment to the landlord. If the landlord really wanted to put the cat among the pigeons he would be contacting the DSP and reporting him.

Clampdown

Wow as usual loads of people ready to scold the tenant and posting stuff that is totally not based on facts, not based on the legislation in place, not based on recent RTB judgements, just on your opinion of someone who didn't pay a months rent because they were being kicke out of their home illegally, without proper procedures, and possibly under false pretences, using the old 'selling up' loophole that landlords were usin falsely at such a high rate that new laws had to be drafted in this year to prevent it.

If there was an illegal eviction performed, where no valid notice was given a case can still be taken to the PRTB. The landlord did not fulfill his obligations there, and also did not fulfill his obligations in terms of giving notice that OP was in arrears, giving him the 14 days to pay up, etc. Also the landlord can't just say, 'we might sell up', they by law, HAVE to put it up for sale within 3 months of the tenant being made to vacate.

If the landlord didn't give written notice, it's a breach of the residential tenancies act and an illegal eviction. If the house is not put up for sale, that's another breach and the landlord can be finedfor that, too.

I was in a similar situation and as I knew the landlord was the type who would not refund my deposit I never paid my last months rent. He had not given a written notice of eviction and he also changed the locks after 10 days, and he also didn't put the house up for sale within 3 months. I had pictures to prove the property was not damaged so the deposit being kept cancelled out the last month rent when the PRTB calculated their findings and I was awarded damages for the illegal eviction.

So saying that the PRTB won't do anything because of one months rent arrears, you're incorrect. An illegal eviction still carries a penalty.

Saying 'you should be thankful you didn't need a landlord reference for your next house' was a ridiculous response as well. The OP was illegally evicted! The landlord wouldn't even give him written notice to vacate so he was hardly going to give a letter of reference either, was he? And if you have such trouble getting a written notice, it doesn't bode well for a return of deposit either, does it? You'd be a mug to hand over another penny to a cowboy like that! Once they start fobbing you off like that they aren't going to just start following the rules.

Funny how tenants need all these references, but tenants are not to know what kind of person the landlord is, how many tenants deposits they've withheld without cause, how many illegal evictions they've performed to get someone in for higher rent, etc. Why don't they have to have a rating or reference available to tenants?

OP go to the PRTB website and file a dispute. It costs 15.00 euro and if he still has your deposit and you only owe a months rent and haven't damaged the property, and he is found not to have given you proper notice, you might get a few pound for your troubles. And if he doesn't sell up within 3 months, he can face further penalties.

yqtwqxqm

OP. You are demonstrating to everyone why landlords now are looking for peoples last 3 landlords references.
And why it is very important to ring several previous landlords when letting.

Heres how it would work when you move again, even if you leave on good terms with your next landlord.

Potential future landlords rings your current landlord and asks him "is he a good tenant? Has he always paid his rent? Did he try to use his deposit as his last months rent? Would you rent to him again". Landlord says you are great and no problems.

Now he rings your previous landlord and asks him "is he a good tenant? Has he always paid his rent? Did he try to use his deposit as his last months rent? Would you rent to him again". Landlord says "~!#@~@~'###%#@#!!#@"

Well you get the idea.

usernamegoes

yqtwqxqm wrote: »

Now he rings your previous landlord and asks him "is he a good tenant? Has he always paid his rent? Did he try to use his deposit as his last months rent? Would you rent to him again". Landlord says "~!#@~@~'###%#@#!!#@"

Well you get the idea.

Pretty sure the old landlord would give a bad reference to the new one even if the OP paid the last month's rent and took the old landlord to the RTB over an illegal eviction.

athtrasna

usernamegoes wrote: »

Pretty sure the old landlord would give a bad reference to the new one even if the OP paid the last month's rent and took the old landlord to the RTB over an illegal eviction.

OP could point them towards RTB judgement though

April 73

There's wrong on both sides here but to me the LL kicked things off with what looks on the surface to be an illegal eviction.
Even though the OP withheld the last month's rent it's likely an RTB judgement would find in their favour over the eviction.

Chuchote

OP hasn't *refused* to pay the last month's rent; s/he is holding it until the landlord provides the letter.

OP, what about going to the PRTB, bringing the last month's rent to the hearing, and asking them to adjudicate on the letter. My guess is that they'll say "Write the letter here and now and show it to us so we can see what it says", and that they'll tell you to hand over the rent once the landlord hands over the letter.

My other guess is that as soon as you tell the ex-landlord that you're going to take him/her to the PRTB, the letter will magically appear and you can hand over your rent once you've read it and made sure it's satisfactory.

regi3457

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Feel thankful that you were able to get another place without a landlord reference.

And pray (or whatever takes your fancy) that the next couple of times you move they won't be looking for references from your last three landlord.

Do you enjoy scaring people? Must people really pray for these kind of things in Ireland?

regi3457

Micky8728 wrote: »

My landlord said we had to be out of his accommodation in one months time because he might renovate or sell the house. I asked to get written notice on paper of this but refused. We moved out anyway. I asked him again for this when handing over the keys but still he refused. I kept his last months rent until he does. He rang my girlfriend earlier saying we owr him rent for months and months even thou our rent book is upto date apart from last months. He told he she was no going to get anyeherr in life and slammed the door in our face esrlier when I tried to talk to him. What should we do next?

Some LL are bitter people. A lot of people who own property in Ireland are squeezed to their limit to make payments. Debt makes people bitter. Sometimes you get a nice LL sometimes you don't. You have to choose wisely next time and try choose to live in a decent persons property.

davo10

regi3457 wrote: »

Some LL are bitter people. A lot of people who own property in Ireland are squeezed to their limit to make payments. Debt makes people bitter. Sometimes you get a nice LL sometimes you don't. You have to choose wisely next time and try choose to live in a decent persons property.

Tenants who withhold rent make LLs bitter.

regi3457

davo10 wrote: »

Tenants who withhold rent make LLs bitter.

There could be a number of reasons why rent is withheld. There are two sides to each story and both parties must respect each other and the contract. If rent was withheld perhaps there was good cause for it. I say "perhaps".

athtrasna

regi3457 wrote: »

There could be a number of reasons why rent is withheld. There are two sides to each story and both parties must respect each other and the contract. If rent was withheld perhaps there was good cause for it. I say "perhaps".

Regardless of reason, withholding rent is illegal.

regi3457

athtrasna wrote: »

Regardless of reason, withholding rent is illegal.

Ok so let me propose a situation. Let's say that the apartment is falling apart. The Landlord does not want to attend to the mess. Rent is due. What should the tenant do? Pay rent anyway?
I think illegal is when there is a breach of contract but in this case LL breached contract and no court of law would find tenant guilty

Boater123

regi3457 wrote: »

Ok so let me propose a situation. Let's say that the apartment is falling apart. The Landlord does not want to attend to the mess. Rent is due. What should the tenant do? Pay rent anyway?

Short answer yes, if they want to follow the law.

Or as athtrasna already said, Regardless of reason, withholding rent is illegal.

Giving someone advice to withhold rent leaves them open to eviction for rent arrears. The tenant is supposed to take the prescribed by law steps to get the repairs done.

regi3457

Boater123 wrote: »

Short answer yes, if they want to follow the law.

Or as athtrasna already said, Regardless of reason, withholding rent is illegal.

Giving someone advice to withhold rent leaves them open to eviction for rent arrears. The tenant is supposed to take the prescribed by law steps to get the repairs done.

Ok I see. But if a contract states that the property must be kept in good condition then the LL breached the contract first.

Can you please show me the Irish law where it is stated that not paying the rent in this instance is deemed illegal? I am really interested to read it.

thanks for your reply

Boater123

regi3457 wrote: »

Ok I see. But if a contract states that the property must be kept in good condition then the LL breached the contract first.

Can you please show me the Irish law where it is stated that not paying the rent in this instance is deemed illegal? I am really interested to read it.

thanks for your reply

Read/ Google the Residential tenancy acts.

<Mods sorry for the thread drift>

regi3457

Boater123 wrote: »

Read/ Google the Residential tenancy acts.

<Mods sorry for the thread drift>

I did google it. It said that it was not recommended but couldn't find anything that states that it is illegal. Remember, it is not the same as not paying your rent before and after one party breaches the contract. If you have a link you could point me to, I may stand to be corrected

thanks!

pablo128

davo10 wrote: »

Tenants who withhold rent make LLs bitter.

athtrasna wrote: »

Regardless of reason, withholding rent is illegal.

If you were owed a months rent, and all you had to do to get it was to write a letter and hand it to someone, what would you do?

foggy_lad

The Landlord refused point plank to issue proper legal notice of eviction. in my opinion that should be a criminal offence and they should be arrested, charged and have their finances forensically audited.

sammy2016

Both landlord and tenant are wrong in this case, a landlord should issue notice to quit in writing confirming the date it starts and ends and under no right has a tenant a right to with hold rent,my washing machine is broken the past 2months ive been on to my landlord on 3seperate occastions now so next week she will politely get another text and followed by an email and if nothing done id advised by the PRTB to fix the issue myself hold onto recept and just deduet the repairs from the rent

foggy_lad

athtrasna wrote: »

Regardless of reason, withholding rent is illegal.

Yes it is illegal and should not be done except in the most serious of situations.(Where a landlord has over a prolonged period failed to do essential repairs or replace fixtures or fittings or furniture etc the tenant can theoretically get repairs done and deduct the amount from any rent owed.)

Refusing to issue written notice of eviction is also illegal as is refusing to issue a proper notice of arrears before issuing a notice of eviction.

armabelle

foggy_lad wrote: »

Yes it is illegal and should not be done except in the most serious of situations.(Where a landlord has over a prolonged period failed to do essential repairs or replace fixtures or fittings or furniture etc the tenant can theoretically get repairs done and deduct the amount from any rent owed.)

Refusing to issue written notice of eviction is also illegal as is refusing to issue a proper notice of arrears before issuing a notice of eviction.

I am new to Ireland but my two cents is that "illegal" is a strong word here. I think that rent should always be paid but if there is a contract and the landlord breaches it first, the judge would never allow the eviction. Any intelligent LL knows this which is why it is in everyones best interest to play by the rules.

High rents in Ireland are going to see more and more issues like these because people are being squeezed beyond their decency

Michael D Not Higgins

regi3457 wrote: »

I did google it. It said that it was not recommended but couldn't find anything that states that it is illegal. Remember, it is not the same as not paying your rent before and after one party breaches the contract. If you have a link you could point me to, I may stand to be corrected

thanks!

It is illegal as it is a tenant obligation under section 16 (a) (i) of the RTA 2004. Whether there's a breach of the landlord's obligations is of no consequence, as it is taking the law into your own hand to withhold rent in order to force the landlord to uphold their side of the lease. The correct forum for an issue under the law is the RTB.

As it stands, it appears there have been a number of problems from both sides and the best thing would be to sort it out without the RTB. It appears the OP was willing to leave without issue if they had a written reason to produce to welfare for their rent allowance and agreeing to shorter notice and/or for reasons not in the RTA means there was no illegal eviction.

Withholding rent in this instance can't be backed by the law. However the landlord would have to chase them in the RTB for it and considering they're a welfare tenant and it's one month's rent, it's unlikely to be worth the time or effort.

armabelle

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

It is illegal as it is a tenant obligation under section 16 (a) (i) of the RTA 2004. Whether there's a breach of the landlord's obligations is of no consequence, as it is taking the law into your own hand to withhold rent in order to force the landlord to uphold their side of the lease. The correct forum for an issue under the law is the RTB.

As it stands, it appears there have been a number of problems from both sides and the best thing would be to sort it out without the RTB. It appears the OP was willing to leave without issue if they had a written reason to produce to welfare for their rent allowance and agreeing to shorter notice and/or for reasons not in the RTA means there was no illegal eviction.

Withholding rent in this instance can't be backed by the law. However the landlord would have to chase them in the RTB for it and considering they're a welfare tenant and it's one month's rent, it's unlikely to be worth the time or effort.

I read the act for my own interest and it does say that the rent must be paid but couldn't see that it says that rent should still be paid if LL is in breach of contract. did I miss that part?

here is the cut

(a) pay to the landlord or his or her authorised agent (or any other person where required to do so by any enactment)—


(i) the rent provided for under the tenancy concerned on the date it falls due for payment, and

(ii) where the lease or tenancy agreement provides that any charges or taxes are payable by the tenant, pay those charges or taxes in accordance with the lease or tenancy agreement (unless provision to that effect in the lease or tenancy agreement is unlawful or contravenes any other enactment),

amcalester

armabelle wrote: »

I read the act for my own interest and it does say that the rent must be paid but couldn't see that it says that rent should still be paid if LL is in breach of contract. did I miss that part?

here is the cut

(a) pay to the landlord or his or her authorised agent (or any other person where required to do so by any enactment)—


(i) the rent provided for under the tenancy concerned on the date it falls due for payment, and

(ii) where the lease or tenancy agreement provides that any charges or taxes are payable by the tenant, pay those charges or taxes in accordance with the lease or tenancy agreement (unless provision to that effect in the lease or tenancy agreement is unlawful or contravenes any other enactment),

Any circumstances in which the renter can stop paying rent would need to be set out in the act, if you can't find any such circumstances then rent must always be paid.

TheChizler

armabelle wrote: »

I read the act for my own interest and it does say that the rent must be paid but couldn't see that it says that rent should still be paid if LL is in breach of contract. did I miss that part?

It doesn't mention specifically that rent should still be paid if the tenant doesn't feel like it either but clearly that's not the case. If a law is made any exceptions must be stated by law, otherwise they're not exceptions.

regi3457

amcalester wrote: »

Any circumstances in which the renter can stop paying rent would need to be set out in the act, if you can't find any such circumstances then rent must always be paid.

I still insist that it is not illegal. Not paying rent is like not paying debt, a civil matter not a direct offence so saying it is illegal is not correct IMO. A number of problems could be the result of tenant not paying rent and neither will imply that the tenant has broken the law. I don't ever recommend anyone to not pay their rent just don't think "illegal" is correct term.

TheChizler

regi3457 wrote: »

I still insist that it is not illegal. Not paying rent is like not paying debt, a civil matter not a direct offence so saying it is illegal is not correct IMO.

Debts don't normally have specific acts of law written about them though. And there are plenty of civil matters that are illegal. Just because it's not a criminal matter doesn't mean it's not illegal.