Drinking from an upstairs tap

TOMP

Is it ok to drink water from an upstairs tap in an Irish house? If not, why are there no warning signs?

Del2005

TOMP wrote: »

Is it ok to drink water from an upstairs tap in an Irish house? If not, why are there no warning signs?

Not OK to drink from an upstairs tap as it's feed from a tank. You can put a warning sign up if you want.

Sleeper12

It's not ok to drink. As for warning signs, there's none on your toilet and I bet you don't drink from there.

percy212

Really? Crap. I have been filling an upstairs dog bowl from the bathroom tap for months!

Larbre34

In an Irish House....

Does this house have a zinc or plastic tank? Is it covered or uncovered? Can birds or vermin gain access to the loft space? Is the water in the storage tank turned over often?

I wouldnt drink the water from my modern house tank as a preference but in a tight spot after a feed of pints, i doubt it would kill me

Outkast_IRE

percy212 wrote: »

Really? Crap. I have been filling an upstairs dog bowl from the bathroom tap for months!

It wouldn't make any difference to a dog once the tank is free of vermin, covered and in regular use , their immune system is far better than ours against bugs in water.

If in doubt pop up the attic and look at the condition of the tank on the inside.

vicwatson

Used to drink it years ago, still have just one head. How things have changed:P

NIALL D

Of course it is ok to drink water from an upstairs tap - AS LONG AS IT IS CONNECTED TO THE MAINS WATER SUPPLY ..

Yours could well be connected to the mains , dunno why people are sayin that you cant when they have no idea where the supply comes from .
In the old days most houses had every tap except for the kitchen connected to the supply tank in the attic..

Every house i plumb i always bring mains water to every sink ..
Attic supply tank is mainly jus used to feed the toilets or if its not a pressureised system it will feed showers bath cylinder etc ..

Outkast_IRE

NIALL D wrote: »

Of course it is ok to drink water from an upstairs tap - AS LONG AS IT IS CONNECTED TO THE MAINS WATER SUPPLY ..

Yours could well be connected to the mains , dunno why people are sayin that you cant when they have no idea where the supply comes from .
In the old days most houses had every tap except for the kitchen connected to the supply tank in the attic..

Every house i plumb i always bring mains water to every sink ..
Attic supply tank is mainly jus used to feed the toilets or if its not a pressureised system it will feed showers bath cylinder etc ..

Niall, i am glad your not my plumber you have just admitted that every house you have plumbed does not comply with building regulations.

To quote TGD G Section 1 1.3 " The cold water supply to the kitchen sink should be taken directly from the service pipe supplying the dwelling; the cold water supply to the bath or shower and washbasins and to other appliances in the dwelling should be from a cold water storage cistern."

By connecting all appliances to mains water you are not complying with the regulations, most councils will also have their own stipulations that the mains should only supply to the kitchen sink and cold water cistern. This is to try and control the pressure and flowrate in the area. By connecting all sinks to mains you are more likely to effect others nearby with reduced pressure.

You are also contradicting basic guidance on Legionella and sanitation by telling people that drinking from the storage tank is the same as drinking from the mains. Most cold water storage tanks in this country are not covered or sealed correctly, with bats, rodents and insects often found in the tank. The tanks are located in attics spaces which for a large part of the summer could be 20-30 degrees plus, again this increases the likelyhood of bacteria breeding in the water. Imagine if you are on a 2 week holdiay and come back and start drinking water that has been held at 20-30 degrees for 2 weeks, this is prime breeding ground for legionella.

Your advice on this topic is ill informed and to be honest should be deleted, as your advice puts peoples health at risk.

Calahonda52

NIALL D wrote: »

Every house i plumb i always bring mains water to every sink ..
..

And who signs off on this as complying with the regs?
What about cross contamination of the supply via mixer tap?

NIALL D

What are you on about ..??
Read the post again !? I said i bring mains water - as in the supply from the council - to all cold taps in the house ..! This is so you wont be drinking water from the storage tank or brushing your teeth with rank water !!

Why would you actually want the water coming from the tank in attic which from what ive nearly always have some sort of dirt in them often dead mice etc ..

On mixer taps always put a non return valve , and a isolation valve .

Outkast_IRE

NIALL D wrote: »

What are you on about ..??
Read the post again !? I said i bring mains water - as in the supply from the council - to all cold taps in the house ..! This is so you wont be drinking water from the storage tank or brushing your teeth with rank water !!

Why would you actually want the water coming from the tank in attic which from what ive nearly always have some sort of dirt in them often dead mice etc ..

On mixer taps always put a non return valve , and a isolation valve .

you still don't seem to grasp that by connecting mains water to every cold tap in the house you don't comply with building regulations. Nobody should be comfortable signing off on that system.

Sleeper12

NIALL D wrote:

What are you on about ..?? Read the post again !? I said i bring mains water - as in the supply from the council - to all cold taps in the house ..! This is so you wont be drinking water from the storage tank or brushing your teeth with rank water !!

Apart from being totally the wrong way to do it you will damage any pumps & power showers with unbalanced hot & cold feeds. This voids any warranty.

RJF

Is there an exemption then in the regs to allow connection of mains fed electric shower? Also some washing machines will be problematic if fed on too low a pressure such as tank in a bungalow?

Outkast_IRE

100266532 wrote:

Is there an exemption then in the regs to allow connection of mains fed electric shower? Also some washing machines will be problematic if fed on too low a pressure such as tank in a bungalow?

This is a good point RJF , i will have a scout through the regs when i get a chance but i cant think of any exemptions off the top of my head. Of course the mains fed electric showers are generally accepted to be safe once installed correctly as the air gap between the shower head and the floor of the shower tray is how back siphoning is prevented.

NIALL D

Interesting replys haha.
I think ye are mixing up taps with showers are ye ?
Showers are piped as specified by manufactures spec for example trition t80 is a mains fed shower so gets a mains feed .!! Triton t90 is tank fed so gets its supply from the storage tank in the attic ..
Pressurised systems are piped accordingly and will have even hot and cold supply pressure at the fittings taps showers etc !!

RJF , Washing machines are most commonly connected to mains , once again , connected as to manufacturers spec !! Dont bother tryin to be smart by bringing in new topics and trying to be an expert and make it look i said different when there was no mention of it earlier !!

So back to where we started ! Ok as ye said the regs state bla bla bla. In theory wheather your water comes from the mains feed or from the tank which is fed by the mains supply you are using roughly the same amount of water .. I suppose possibly a bit more if the tap is connected to mains and the pressure is high it will have a greater flow rate !!

Ok anyway , yes as i said for example my house i have mains water connected to my ensuite cold tap and main bathroom cold tap , simply for the reason is that theres fresh drinking water there and safe water for brushing your teeth .

Most old houses have there cold bathroom sink taps connected to tank in attic which most of the time are uncovered dirty and often have dead flys mice bats etc in them , believe me ive looked into enough tanks over the years to know ..

So you tell me , Which tap would you rather be drinking water from and brushing your teeth eh ????

Sleeper12

RJF wrote:

Is there an exemption then in the regs to allow connection of mains fed electric shower? Also some washing machines will be problematic if fed on too low a pressure such as tank in a bungalow?

Mains fed showers aren't really suitable for most of Ireland as the pressure is quite low & fluctuates throughout the day.
You'll find most mains fed showers downstairs. This is because it's a pain in the butt to get a cold feed from the attic to ground floor. The only time I fit mains fed showers would be in apartments when they have a pump.

KCross

Im not a plumber so I might get some terminology wrong here but I dont have any tank in my attic. Its a pressurised system and so all my taps are in effect mains fed like what NIALL D has said.

If what some of you have pointed out in the regs is true then my system does not comply. My house is only 4yrs old and "signed off".

I think there must be some more to it that what you guys have pointed out in the regs.

I would agree on one thing from NIALL D... i'd rather be brushing my teeth from mains fed taps in my en-suite than a tank in the attic.... if there is a dead mouse in there it wont matter much if you are drinking it or brushing your teeth with it, you will get sick either way.

Back to the OP... if it's an old house with an open tank in the attic feeding the taps then its certainly a risk to be drinking it. Alot of business premises put up signs for public liability reasons but thats not required for domestic situations I suppose.

dathi

KCross wrote: »

Im not a plumber so I might get some terminology wrong here but I dont have any tank in my attic. Its a pressurised system and so all my taps are in effect mains fed like what NIALL D has said.

If what some of you have pointed out in the regs is true then my system does not comply. My house is only 4yrs old and "signed off".

.

you will find that the engineer /architect "signed off" with a cert that said your house was "built substantially in compliance with the building regulations" which more or less means most things complied with the regs but not everything. which is a get out of jail card for engineer when **** hits fan. one of the reasons the new building control act was brought in is to prevent this type of cert being issued . and you must have a water cistern of min 212 liters but it does not have to be in the attic which would allow you to use a pump to pressurize system if it was attached to water cistern

KCross

And what is wrong with having no tank/cistern? I don't see a downside and a few upsides so I'm interested to know why they recommend a tank?

Maybe that part of the regs is geared towards public water systems rather than private well?

dathi

KCross wrote: »

And what is wrong with having no tank/cistern? I don't see a downside and a few upsides so I'm interested to know why they recommend a tank?

Maybe that part of the regs is geared towards public water systems rather than private well?

building regulations are the same whether you build your dwelling in a rural or urban location and they are not a recommendation they are a legal requirement.

cruizer101

I regularly drink from the upstairs tap, to be honest prefer it, it tastes nicer. I think what happens is that as the water sits the chlorine from it dissapates or something because it definitely doesn't have as much of a chemically taste. I know people say you shouldn't and I am in no way advising others to do it but I'm doing it few years and never any problem, I think it comes from when attics would have potentially been far more wild and dirty places, but we have a covered plastic tank and would be used plenty so water wouldn't be sitting there too long. I get what people are saying about legionella and if I was away for a while I might give it a day or so first, but as I say I think it tastes nicer and don't plan changing anytime soon.

KCross

dathi wrote: »

building regulations are the same whether you build your dwelling in a rural or urban location and they are not a recommendation they are a legal requirement.

Fair enough, but why is it required from a practical viewpoint?
i.e. Regs aside, what is the advantage of having a tank

CJhaughey

In engineering terms water storage is a potential hazard, storing large volumes of water (hot or cold ) is problematic on many levels.
The cold storage cistern tank is almost unique to Ireland and the UK, most parts of Europe rely on mains pressure supply of cold water to all taps in the house and if the mains supply pressure is too low then a booster pump is fitted.
In practical terms having a load of water above your head that is sitting in a reservoir that is in many cases open and uncovered and outside the heated envelope of the house is not best practice.
I can understand councils stipulating planning so as to ensure continuity of supply if the mains is broken but its really an archaic way of doing things.
The technical guidance document is not a legal document, it serves to give guidance, a legal document is a Statutory Instrument and AFAIK there is nothing in the SI that states that taps cannot be fed directly from the mains supply.
Correct me if I am wrong.

dathi

CJhaughey wrote: »

.
The technical guidance document is not a legal document, it serves to give guidance, a legal document is a Statutory Instrument and AFAIK there is nothing in the SI that states that taps cannot be fed directly from the mains supply.
Correct me if I am wrong.

correct the "building regulation" is the section in the grey box at the beginning of the guidance document and this is what must be complied with under the si. http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1990/act/3/enacted/en/html the technical guidance shows one method of complying with the "building regulation" and is taken as the prima facie method of showing compliance. how ever other methods can be used but you or your engineer must be able to prove they comply with reg.

CJhaughey

dathi wrote: »

correct the "building regulation" is the section in the grey box at the beginning of the guidance document and this is what must be complied with under the si. http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1990/act/3/enacted/en/html the technical guidance shows one method of complying with the "building regulation" and is taken as the prima facie method of showing compliance. how ever other methods can be used but you or your engineer must be able to prove they comply with reg.

Thats my understanding of the SI as well, but it doesn't explicitly state that all cold taps in the house must be fed from a cistern.
The TGD makes reference to the British Standard BS6700, 1997 in which it references 2.2.2 which clearly states that a mix of mains pressure and gravity fed can be used for example if the ground floor and outside taps are mains fed and upstairs cold taps could be gravity fed if the pressure was too low from the mains.
And the comment in the BS 6700 document states :
Drinking water should be taken directly from the
water supplier's main wherever practicable or, when
circumstances dictate otherwise, from a cistern
protected in accordance with 2.2.3.1.
Given that all cold water is potentially drinking water in a house I would prefer to have mains supply to all cold taps rather than risk using an attic mounted cistern supplying the rest of the house.

Dtp1979

cruizer101 wrote: »

I regularly drink from the upstairs tap, to be honest prefer it, it tastes nicer. I think what happens is that as the water sits the chlorine from it dissapates or something because it definitely doesn't have as much of a chemically taste. I know people say you shouldn't and I am in no way advising others to do it but I'm doing it few years and never any problem, I think it comes from when attics would have potentially been far more wild and dirty places, but we have a covered plastic tank and would be used plenty so water wouldn't be sitting there too long. I get what people are saying about legionella and if I was away for a while I might give it a day or so first, but as I say I think it tastes nicer and don't plan changing anytime soon.

You can't get legionella from drinking contaminated water

hatchman

Dtp1979 wrote:

You can't get legionella from drinking contaminated water

Not completely true if drinking contaminated water and it goes down the wrong way you can get it.

CJhaughey

I think a bigger issue is if Legionella is present using a shower with gravity fed water poses more of a risk then drinking it.
Regardless storing water in tanks in an attic is not best engineering practice, the reasons given for doing it this way are largely due to inadequate water infrastructure and "thats the way its done here" not for reasons of public health.
I have read reports that show that 40% of attic water tanks tested had legionella present.
The fact is that storing water especially in the attic in summer can pose significant risks to health, most bacteria thrive in the heat range of a typical attic in summer.

Dtp1979

hatchman wrote: »

Not completely true if drinking contaminated water and it goes down the wrong way you can get it.

That's calling inhaling it, not drinking it

TOMP

How does it work for apartment blocks? Is the cold water supply from a storage tank?

quietsailor

Is it possible to have three water supplies at all sink

two would be the hot feed, cold feed from the attic tank probably supplying all mixer tap for convenience.
The third feed would be potable / mains water and go to a drinking faucet style tap to make it obvious its drinkable

Would this layout allow you to use rain water in the house as it is not cross connected to mains

Dtp1979

quietsailor wrote: »

Is it possible to have three water supplies at all sink

two would be the hot feed, cold feed from the attic tank probably supplying all mixer tap for convenience.
The third feed would be potable / mains water and go to a drinking faucet style tap to make it obvious its drinkable

Would this layout allow you to use rain water in the house as it is not cross connected to mains

Yes as long as the waters can't possibly mix. But basins don't come with 3 tap holes. You can get taps that have 3 inlets but they're very pricey

quietsailor

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Yes as long as the waters can't possibly mix. But basins don't come with 3 tap holes. You can get taps that have 3 inlets but they're very pricey

Just a thought, on existing basins designed for two taps -- are the hole diameters the same as the hole diameters on a sink designed for a mixer tap? That way you have a mixer tap on the right (for example) with the hot cold and the faucet type on the left

Chuchote

A friend of mine had a baby who was always getting sick. Turned out she was making the bottle with water from the hot tap, rather than boiling the kettle with water from the cold tap — doctor went crazy when he heard!
Another friend, in London, has just had visits from the council; they're checking all the taps locally for Legionnaire's Disease germs. They warned him always to run the taps for a bit if he's been away, as the germs breed in unused taps. I wonder if the same is true of standing water in tanks.

Sleeper12

Chuchote wrote: »

A friend of mine had a baby who was always getting sick. Turned out she was making the bottle with water from the hot tap, rather than boiling the kettle with water from the cold tap — doctor went crazy when he heard!
Another friend, in London, has just had visits from the council; they're checking all the taps locally for Legionnaire's Disease germs. They warned him always to run the taps for a bit if he's been away, as the germs breed in unused taps. I wonder if the same is true of standing water in tanks.

Just to point out it is perfectly ok to give a babys bottle made up of water from the hot tap (not that I'd like the idea of doing it myself). So long as its boiled first it is as clean & healthy as boiled water from the cold tap

Chuchote

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Just to point out it is perfectly ok to give a babys bottle made up of water from the hot tap (not that I'd like the idea of doing it myself). So long as its boiled first it is as clean & healthy as boiled water from the cold tap

Not what the doc said; he told her that she was putting the kid at risk of verdigris poisoning. As soon as she stopped, the little lad stopped getting ill.

Sleeper12

Chuchote wrote: »

Not what the doc said; he told her that she was putting the kid at risk of verdigris poisoning. As soon as she stopped, the little lad stopped getting ill.

Doc needs to go back to school. Boiled water is boiled water. Boiling the water makes it sterile. The mistake your friend made was not boiling the water. Even water taken from the cold tap can cause tummy bugs if not boiled first for a baby.

Chuchote

Problem wasn't the sterility of the water, but the fact that the copper cylinder poisoned it.

Dtp1979

Chuchote wrote: »

Problem wasn't the sterility of the water, but the fact that the copper cylinder poisoned it.

So what about all the copper pipework in every house in the country.?

Sleeper12

Dtp1979 wrote:

So what about all the copper pipework in every house in the country.?

Or the lead pipes still coming into some homes.

Chuchote

Water travelling constantly through pipes is one thing; water that stays for hours or days in the tank is another.
A plumber working for the Corpo told me when I was living in Rialto (delicious Vartry water, made even nicer by the sweet flavour from the 19th-century lead piping outside) that I should always run the tap for 5-15 minutes in the morning to get fresh, un-leaded water in for the kettle…

Sleeper12

Chuchote wrote:

Water travelling constantly through pipes is one thing; water that stays for hours or days in the tank is another. A plumber working for the Corpo told me when I was living in Rialto (delicious Vartry water, made even nicer by the sweet flavour from them 19th-century lead piping outside) that I should always run the tap for 5-15 minutes in the morning to get fresh, un-leaded water in for the kettle…

That is because of lead poisoning. It has nothing to do with the copper cylinder or pipes. I'll just point out that you are on the plumbing forum and most of us are plumbers.
They no longer put in lead pipes because of lead poisoning. Copper cylinder and pipes are still used because they are perfectly safe

Chuchote

Sleeper12 wrote: »

That is because of lead poisoning. It has nothing to do with the copper cylinder or pipes. I'll just point out that you are on the plumbing forum and most of us are plumbers.
They no longer put in lead pipes because of lead poisoning. Copper cylinder and pipes are still used because they are perfectly safe

Copper cylinders are safe for washing in; not such a good idea for drinking from!

Sleeper12

Chuchote wrote: »

Copper cylinders are safe for washing in; not such a good idea for drinking from!

You have to be winding me up!! The pipe that you drink your cold water from in your kitchen is copper.
Hot water from a copper cylinder once boiled is free of germs & bacteria. The point I was making is if I were your friend I'd change doctors cos if he doesn't know that boiled water is safe to drink from the hot & cold tap there is something very wrong with his basic training.

hatchman

So if there was a few dead mice and bird poo in the water in your attic tank and you boil the water from this you would be totally fine to drink it ??

Sleeper12

hatchman wrote: »

So if there was a few dead mice and bird poo in the water in your attic tank and you boil the water from this you would be totally fine to drink it ??

Hey I didn't say I'd do it I just said it would be sterile. No bugs or germs

mikeymouse

You misread the post about the sick child,
mum was using the hot water from the hot tap and because it was warm enough ,did not boil it

Sleeper12

mikeymouse wrote:

You misread the post about the sick child, mum was using the hot water from the hot tap and because it was warm enough ,did not boil it

No I get that but the doctor didn't pick up on boiling water. Doctor blamed it on copper cylinder. Cooper cylinder has nothing to do with. Drinking water is delivered in copper pipes at the kitchen sink

mikeymouse

Chuchote wrote: »

A friend of mine had a baby who was always getting sick. Turned out she was making the bottle with water from the hot tap, rather than boiling the kettle with water from the cold tap — doctor went crazy when he heard!
Another friend, in London, has just had visits from the council; they're checking all the taps locally for Legionnaire's Disease germs. They warned him always to run the taps for a bit if he's been away, as the germs breed in unused taps. I wonder if the same is true of standing water in tanks.

No mention of copper here

Sleeper12

mikeymouse wrote:

No mention of copper here[/quote

There is here

quote=Chuchote]Problem wasn't the sterility of the water, but the fact that the copper cylinder poisoned it.

]