New bull, no working.

lefthooker

Lads/ladies have a read and give your opinion.

The bull with the cows got injured on active service 3 weeks into the breeding season so I bought a new young bull immediately(26 months old). My other bull was with the heifers. I scanned 59 days in, later than usual, and 39 days after the new lad arrived. Any cow that scanned in calf was 6, 7 and 8 weeks, not one 4 or 5 weeks. All heifers scanned 4, 5 and 6 weeks. I was worried coming up to be scan cos I hadn't seen him serve a cow, only jump and then slide back off but now I had proof. So I brought the other bull home straight away and contacted the seller to tell him to collect his bull and refund my money as were terms of the sale. I tb tested the bull and got the movement permit. They collected the bull and refunded the money and one of them asked what was wrong with the bull and had I scanned the whole herd. When he couldn't get the better of me there he suggested I was being very quick to get return the bull and that I was only looking at the first eleven days and the bull would want time to get used to the place and the cows. And they'd get the bull tested.

To my mind the only test that matters is putting cows in calf and on that he'd failed miserably. I thought he had plenty of time to put some cows in calf and prove himself. Even as I write this there are cows still bulling strong. I have no confidence In the bull and wasn't going to take a chance. I could be looking at a very quiet time in Feb/Mar.

So did I do right or wrong? Was I too quick to judge?

PMU

the scanner will pick them up after 30 days. sounds to me like you did the right thing in returning him

lefthooker

That's why I waited a bit longer, to give him the 5 1/2 weeks in the herd and specifically look for anything 4-5 weeks gone.

lefthooker

The seller did suggest that I didn't know how many cows were 1, 2 or 3 weeks in calf in the scan which is a fair point but the next scan in Sept is too long to wait to find out and he won't be at the loss of production or slipping calving dates next spring.

Grueller

You did right to send him back. It can be a shock to a young bull to be let out with a herd of cows but you explained that to the seller and he was happy the bull was fit for purpose.
Rest easy, it would be worse on the seller if you came back for compensation for loss of milk or no calves with sucklers or whatever.

J.O. Farmer

lefthooker wrote: »

The seller did suggest that I didn't know how many cows were 1, 2 or 3 weeks in calf in the scan which is a fair point but the next scan in Sept is too long to wait to find out and he won't be at the loss of production or slipping calving dates next spring.

I think if you buy at a bull at a bull sale the bull would have to be fairly tried. I think that means thathe should be ran with at least 3 cycling cows or heifers which you did. He should put at least1 in calf which he didn't. The only thing I'm not sure about is how long he should have to do it. I'd say it was short enough on time though as the scanning will only shown cows got on the first cycle.

lefthooker

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

I think if you buy at a bull at a bull sale the bull would have to be fairly tried. I think that means thathe should be ran with at least 3 cycling cows or heifers which you did. He should put at least1 in calf which he didn't. The only thing I'm not sure about is how long he should have to do it. I'd say it was short enough on time though as the scanning will only shown cows got on the first cycle.

The bull was bought privately and the situation was explained to the seller, that he was going with cows and I would be scanning in early June. He would have come in just as the first cows bulled might have been repeating. To put things in context, the old bull accounted for a maximum 14 cows in the 10 days he ran with the cows. The new lad got 0 in 11 days.

J.O. Farmer

lefthooker wrote: »

The bull was bought privately and the situation was explained to the seller, that he was going with cows and I would be scanning in early June. He would have come in just as the first cows bulled might have been repeating. To put things in context, the old bull accounted for a maximum 14 cows in the 10 days he ran with the cows. The new lad got 0 in 11 days.

Not saying you did anything wrong but you posted here for an opinion. I know it was a private sale but I was trying to provide the test which would apply in a sale as a standard to compare too.
Maybe the bull could've gotten longer to prove himself but It's the wrong time of the year.
Hard to say much about the context. In any 10 or 11 day period on average half the cows sshould cycle however that doesn’t mean they will in those days. There might well be a problem with the bull and if he is a total dud your lucky.Very few bulls are total duds but subfertile which is more costly as he ccould've put 1 in calf and you'd be stuck with him.

Miname

Transport new surroundings maybe even a slight virus, all could have led to him not doing his job. I think you were a bit over the top and would have definitely have expected you to have kept him for three months. By right you should have a bull for a minimum of 6 weeks pre breeding so he can acclimatise to his new surroundings, it's not really the sellers fault that you needed him in a hurry. I would have been getting him fertility tested if I'd sold him and I would have told you to go and jump if he was alright.

FeelTheBern

lefthooker wrote: »

The bull was bought privately and the situation was explained to the seller, that he was going with cows and I would be scanning in early June. He would have come in just as the first cows bulled might have been repeating. To put things in context, the old bull accounted for a maximum 14 cows in the 10 days he ran with the cows. The new lad got 0 in 11 days.

"He would have come in just as the first cows bulled might have been repeating." I think this makes a difference when comparing. If I'm reading correctly you are comparing how many cows your old bull got in calf on their first go around with how many repeats the new bull got in the same number of days. So maybe not comparing like with like as presumably not as many bulling.

That being said think you did the right thing to send him back now if you're not happy.

PMU

Miname wrote: »

Transport new surroundings maybe even a slight virus, all could have led to him not doing his job. I think you were a bit over the top and would have definitely have expected you to have kept him for three months. By right you should have a bull for a minimum of 6 weeks pre breeding so he can acclimatise to his new surroundings, it's not really the sellers fault that you needed him in a hurry. I would have been getting him fertility tested if I'd sold him and I would have told you to go and jump if he was alright.

6weeks is rubbish,he should be able to bull anything straight off the trailer|

Miname

PMU wrote: »

6weeks is rubbish,he should be able to bull anything straight off the trailer|

It's not, every herd has its own immunity to various virus's and diseases, it has to be allowed for that the herd the bull came from May not have the same resistance to said virus's. Given the fact he's a new bull he needs a chance to acclimatise, 90% will probably fit in but there has to be an allowance that the bull was just dropped into the deep end. 11 days is a poor chance and that's saying the lad scanning was top notch at his job.

lefthooker

Thanks for your comments guys, and I'm not here to argue your opinions. I'm just giving as much info as I can. Maybe comparison isn't the right word. I can just see a definite point where the change of bulls happened. I think the new lad had ample opportunity to prove himself but there wasn't one after him.

The lad scanning is no amateur and at it for years. He had 11 days to get at least 1 cow in calf. And that counts for more than any fertility test. Is it possible for a bull to be fertile but impotent, for the want of a better word? Cows bulling today he would have had 2 opportunities to serve. Make that anything in the last 12 days.

pedigree 6

Miname wrote: »

It's not, every herd has its own immunity to various virus's and diseases, it has to be allowed for that the herd the bull came from May not have the same resistance to said virus's. Given the fact he's a new bull he needs a chance to acclimatise, 90% will probably fit in but there has to be an allowance that the bull was just dropped into the deep end. 11 days is a poor chance and that's saying the lad scanning was top notch at his job.

I read somewhere that it takes 3 weeks from when semen is made inside the bull to when that semen is ejaculated from the bull.
So say a bull gets a virus or is vaccinated today. He could still be fertile up to 2 weeks after. It would take 3 weeks for that infertility to show.

J.O. Farmer

lefthooker wrote: »

Is it possible for a bull to be fertile but impotent, for the want of a better word?
Cows bulling today he would have had 2 opportunities to serve. Make that anything in the last 12 days.

It's possible he's impotent or maybehe was gay remember benjy.
We can't say whether it'sthe bulls ffault or not. The old bull probably got your most fertile cows and he's gone now so it ddoesn't matte .

lefthooker

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

It's possible he's impotent or maybehe was gay remember benjy.
We can't say whether it'sthe bulls ffault or not. The old bull probably got your most fertile cows and he's gone now so it ddoesn't matte .

That's possible too

J.O. Farmer

pedigree 6 wrote: »

I read somewhere that it takes 3 weeks from when semen is made inside the bull to when that semen is ejaculated from the bull.
So say a bull gets a virus or is vaccinated today. He could still be fertile up to 2 weeks after. It would take 3 weeks for that infertility to show.

The semen could be fine. He still has to get it in the cow. If he's not feeling 100% he might not perform. I know if I'm not feeling great I won't be too bothered about looking for sex even if women were throwing themselves at me I think, (it's never happened women throwing themselves at me).

pedigree 6

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

The semen could be fine. He still has to get it in the cow. If he's not feeling 100% he might not perform. I know if I'm not feeling great I won't be too bothered about looking for sex even if women were throwing themselves at me I think, (it's never happened women throwing themselves at me).

I know yea. But you'd keep an eye on the cows to see if he was bulling them properly. You should even see some with their tails up after being bulled.
I know it's easier with dairy to keep an eye on as getting in twice a day.

That benjy fella was castrated in England. I wonder why?:pac:

I had a young Hereford bull one time and no way would he jump on a cow.
Eventually he bulled a heifer and didn't look back after when he got the hang of it.:D

grassroot1

Three things having fertile semen and being able to put cows incalf are two different things.
In some ram sales if the ram puts 1 female inlamb in the first 90 day he is fertile.
11 day is a bit short but I understand your problems.

oneten

At 26 months old he should be on the job straightaway, you done the right thing.

lefthooker

pedigree 6 wrote: »

I know yea. But you'd keep an eye on the cows to see if he was bulling them properly. You should even see some with their tails up after being bulled.
I know it's easier with dairy to keep an eye on as getting in twice a day.

That benjy fella was castrated in England. I wonder why?:pac:

I had a young Hereford bull one time and no way would he jump on a cow.
Eventually he bulled a heifer and didn't look back after when he got the hang of it.:D

I was watching the bull mount cows, he'd shuffle a bit and then slide off. Never seen him jump a cow or a cow with her tail risen after.

Old School Husqy

The bull may be LGBTQ.

lefthooker

An update and full time score;

I scanned again this morning, 12 weeks after the first scan. 70 out of 81 (10 cows, 1 heifer originally showing in calf) Not spectacular but relieved it wasn't worse.

Of the cows, roughly,
1/3 17-20 weeks
1/3 10-12 weeks
1/6 6-9 weeks
1/6 empty
The standout figure tho is that there are zero cows at 13-16 weeks, the grey period if you will for the other bull. Zero in the first scan zero in the second scan. 5 weeks nothing showing. I think looking at those figures I can feel justified shipping out that bull so soon. If I had kept him for 3 months as was suggested I fear what the outcome might have been.