Beef/dairy

jocksie

hi lads we r milking 40 cows at the moment on the home block with possibility to go to 60max in looking at ways to go full time and I know 60 probably wouldnt be enough so I was thinking of maybe renting another 40/50 acres and using a beef bull and keeping a small beef herd as well or would it be a waste of time

_Brian

I'd have thought the time effort and money spend getting into the beef enterprise would be better spent on breeding and facilities to improve and increase yields from the 60 dairy cow farm.

mahoney_j

A robot ,good grazing platform with good roads and grassland management .one robot handles up to 70 cows def worth considering
Ohh and keep the off farm job if u have one as unfourtnately looking ahead it looks anything less than 80/100 cows will be unsustainable if carrying debt

jocksie

There isn't or won't be any land coming up around the home block so expanding any bigger than 60 is prob a non runner

Sam Kade

mahoney_j wrote: »

A robot ,good grazing platform with good roads and grassland management .one robot handles up to 70 cows def worth considering
Ohh and keep the off farm job if u have one as unfourtnately looking ahead it looks anything less than 80/100 cows will be unsustainable if carrying debt

The farmer in th UK with 3 robots milking 240 cows is struggling to keep up the repayments and maintainence on the robots.

mahoney_j

Sam Kade wrote: »

The farmer in th UK with 3 robots milking 240 cows is struggling to keep up the repayments and maintainence on the robots.

Know nothing bout him but I'd bet it's a confined system with tmr ,maby z grazed grass etc etc .with 70 cows good paddock system ,roads ,grass and general management its def feasible with off farm job

Muckit

Aside from the financial side of things, working fulltime, rearing a family and milking 70cows has to be a dogs life I'd imagine

blue5000

jocksie wrote: »

hi lads we r milking 40 cows at the moment on the home block with possibility to go to 60max in looking at ways to go full time and I know 60 probably wouldnt be enough so I was thinking of maybe renting another 40/50 acres and using a beef bull and keeping a small beef herd as well or would it be a waste of time

It's a hard one to call, margins in beef are tight enough without renting land. Need high output to cover costs.
How tight are you stocked now?
Will you need sheds?
New parlour/robot/zero grazer?
Don't give up the day job yet anyway. Another thing to look at is your age/family circumstances, like, if you have kids how old are they? If they need to go to college soon, that will suck money out of a farm.

Do you actually like milking cows?

Sorry about all the questions.

yewtree

Robots are definitely option when working off farm, there is one farmer in our Dg with one and is doing a very good job. The big issue is cost, repayments alone with 70 cows would be 4-5 cent/litre, the running costs would have to be added on to that. they are also fairly inflexible if opportunities arise to increase cow numbers.

Mulumpy

mahoney_j wrote:

Know nothing bout him but I'd bet it's a confined system with tmr ,maby z grazed grass etc etc .with 70 cows good paddock system ,roads ,grass and general management its def feasible with off farm job

Tried the milking and ofj lark for five years. Not sustainable will only wreck your head and wallet.

jocksie

blue5000 wrote: »

It's a hard one to call, margins in beef are tight enough without renting land. Need high output to cover costs.
How tight are you stocked now?
Will you need sheds?
New parlour/robot/zero grazer?
Don't give up the day job yet anyway. Another thing to look at is your age/family circumstances, like, if you have kids how old are they? If they need to go to college soon, that will suck money out of a farm.

Do you actually like milking cows?

Sorry about all the questions.

Would need a shed alright to house maybe 40 more cows depending on how much beef I was taking on,one young fella only 1 years old so long way off college😄mortgage as well so like you say it's a tough one,I was hoping the 60 cows would provide a wage(no borrowings on farm) and the beef would top it up so to speak,ideal world stuff I suppose

blue5000

Like Mulumpy I switched out of dairy a few years ago, so I might be a bit biased!

Timmaay

jocksie wrote: »

Would need a shed alright to house maybe 40 more cows depending on how much beef I was taking on,one young fella only 1 years old so long way off college😄mortgage as well so like you say it's a tough one,I was hoping the 60 cows would provide a wage(no borrowings on farm) and the beef would top it up so to speak,ideal world stuff I suppose

Does your wife work? I think you will really struggle to provide for your family and mortgage from 60 cows and afew beef, however it all depends on how quickly and by how much the price of milk recovers. We are milking 95cows here, and moving forward I'm basing my plans on 5c/l drawings, aka the average price of milk less 5c will need to cover all farm bills and any reinvested etc. That 5c/l would mean I'll need to be knocking out roughly 800kl to draw down a 40kyr wage, or say 126cows doing 6300l/yr, which is the target here on our 110acres. That means the likes of an average milk price of definitely over 30c/l moving forward. Will we achieve that continuing down the road of dump milk powder on the world market?

My figures above are all just educated guesses moving forward, but unfortunately we just don't know anyone what the future holds in terms of the average milk price? We know volatility is part of the milk price moving forward, the question is will the average 3/5yr price be 25c,30c or 35c ha?

Markcheese

Debt is the big factor, a well run profitable small farm with very low debt
would often be a better bet than chasing your tail to pay the bank...
That said if a good opportunity comes along..
If running a robot on the home place gives you the chance to keep a decent off farm job , and use decent contractors to do a lot of work could well leave you better off and with better quality of life..

jocksie

Zero grazing is an option but I suppose milk volatility would determine that

Buford T. Justice XIX

jocksie wrote: »

Zero grazing is an option but I suppose milk volatility would determine that

A friend doing zero grazing says it's 2 hours a day every day between cutting, picking, hauling, feeding, slurry and fertiliser. And 3 or 4 c/l in costs on owned ground with diesel and repairs and depreciation.

tractorporn

Timmaay wrote:

Does your wife work? I think you will really struggle to provide for your family and mortgage from 60 cows and afew beef,

I find it really sad that this statement is fact. Farms like that reared Ireland, educated them and had enough squirreled away to give them a start on their way in adult life. It's a crying shame. Sorry for veering off thread but it's something that's been really annoying me this week.

bullnuts

tractorporn wrote: »

I find it really sad that this statement is fact. Farms like that reared Ireland, educated them and had enough squirreled away to give them a start on their way in adult life. It's a crying shame. Sorry for veering off thread but it's something that's been really annoying me this week.

I am working full time and farming part time ! My only brother works abroad and no intention of coming home so I'll probably get the farm and will have to pay him the equivalent of half the value I am guessing! It's a depressing fact that I'd never get the money back from the farm that id have to pay in order to keep the farm together ! The money is just not to be made !we have Sucklers on 170 acres

Miname

bullnuts wrote: »

I am working full time and farming part time ! My only brother works abroad and no intention of coming home so I'll probably get the farm and will have to pay him the equivalent of half the value I am guessing! It's a depressing fact that I'd never get the money back from the farm that id have to pay in order to keep the farm together ! The money is just not to be made !we have Sucklers on 170 acres

Don't complain it's a start a lot of people would love to get.

mayota

bullnuts wrote: »

I am working full time and farming part time ! My only brother works abroad and no intention of coming home so I'll probably get the farm and will have to pay him the equivalent of half the value I am guessing! It's a depressing fact that I'd never get the money back from the farm that id have to pay in order to keep the farm together ! The money is just not to be made !we have Sucklers on 170 acres

I don't get this. Why should he get anything?

darragh_haven

bullnuts wrote: »

I am working full time and farming part time ! My only brother works abroad and no intention of coming home so I'll probably get the farm and will have to pay him the equivalent of half the value I am guessing! It's a depressing fact that I'd never get the money back from the farm that id have to pay in order to keep the farm together ! The money is just not to be made !we have Sucklers on 170 acres

I had a similar situation with the farm here. I'm the youngest of 4 brothers, 2 had no interest or want of the farm. My parents organised the value if a site for them. They were happy out and got on with there luves and very grateful with what my parents gave them.
My other brother wanted 25% of what the farm was worth. We sat around the talbe, i was nominated for the farm for the sole reason that i had the green cert done. The brother was very insistent that the price of a site wasnt fair.... i said thats fine, you can have the farm, just give me 25% of its worth and well be on our way. Stunned silence from my brother and parents.

My POV was that the farm is only worth its value if i intend selling it (which i never will), its real value is annual profit. My brother ended up with a site and 50k and a bitter head on him. But hes over it now

Timmaay

tractorporn wrote: »

I find it really sad that this statement is fact. Farms like that reared Ireland, educated them and had enough squirreled away to give them a start on their way in adult life. It's a crying shame. Sorry for veering off thread but it's something that's been really annoying me this week.

This is the modern food industry for ya, where nobody sees food past a fancy plastic carton/tray, the only aim people have when they go to the supermarket is to get as much as possible for as little as possible.

tractorporn

Timmaay wrote:

This is the modern food industry for ya, where nobody sees food past a fancy plastic carton/tray, the only aim people have when they go to the supermarket is to get as much as possible for as little as possible.

Unfortunately until that changes and people put a real value on what they put in their mouth we are going to have that scenario. Food as a percentage of income has never been as low.

Timmaay

darragh_haven wrote: »

I had a similar situation with the farm here. I'm the youngest of 4 brothers, 2 had no interest or want of the farm. My parents organised the value if a site for them. They were happy out and got on with there luves and very grateful with what my parents gave them.
My other brother wanted 25% of what the farm was worth. We sat around the talbe, i was nominated for the farm for the sole reason that i had the green cert done. The brother was very insistent that the price of a site wasnt fair.... i said thats fine, you can have the farm, just give me 25% of its worth and well be on our way. Stunned silence from my brother and parents.

My POV was that the farm is only worth its value if i intend selling it (which i never will), its real value is annual profit. My brother ended up with a site and 50k and a bitter head on him. But hes over it now

I'm not going into the full details but in my case I've had to take on other responsibles as part of getting the farm. Has its ups and downs, but that's part of life.

Timmaay

tractorporn wrote: »

Unfortunately until that changes and people put a real value on what they put in their mouth we are going to have that scenario. Food as a percentage of income has never been as low.

I more see it as an issue from the health point of view, never has the diet of the average person been so piss poor and full of processed crap, which all results in the modern day crisis with obesity, diabetes and in part mental health. Education is the only solution, however Large factory farms and flying our food 1/2 way around the world does nothing to allow the average consumer have any link to where the food they eat comes from.

charolais0153

bullnuts wrote: »

I am working full time and farming part time ! My only brother works abroad and no intention of coming home so I'll probably get the farm and will have to pay him the equivalent of half the value I am guessing! It's a depressing fact that I'd never get the money back from the farm that id have to pay in order to keep the farm together ! The money is just not to be made !we have Sucklers on 170 acres

You alrefy have 4 times the amount of land we have

bullnuts

Miname wrote: »

Don't complain it's a start a lot of people would love to get.

I'm saying I'll never make back the money I'll have to pay my brother ! Its not a start I got its a noose because it would also kill me to split up the farm ! Why? Because I love the farm and don't want it broken up after 4 generations

yosemitesam1

mahoney_j wrote: »

A robot ,good grazing platform with good roads and grassland management .one robot handles up to 70 cows def worth considering
Ohh and keep the off farm job if u have one as unfourtnately looking ahead it looks anything less than 80/100 cows will be unsustainable if carrying debt

Would a basic 20 unit parlour be a better option, a lot less investment compared to robot and would be much easier to walk away from if milk price stays low into future

Willfarman

bullnuts wrote: »

I'm saying I'll never make back the money I'll have to pay my brother ! Its not a start I got its a noose because it would also kill me to split up the farm ! Why? Because I love the farm and don't want it broken up after 4 generations

Did you get stock machinery sheds or are you starting with just the acres?

Willfarman

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Would a basic 20 unit parlour be a better option, a lot less investment compared to robot and would be much easier to walk away from if milk price stays low into future

and a lot easier to sell..

RedPeppers

jocksie wrote: »

hi lads we r milking 40 cows at the moment on the home block with possibility to go to 60max in looking at ways to go full time and I know 60 probably wouldnt be enough so I was thinking of maybe renting another 40/50 acres and using a beef bull and keeping a small beef herd as well or would it be a waste of time

Op I am in a similar position to you currently milking 48 cows looking to get up to 65/ 70 max. What we have been doing here for years is keeping 20-25 of the calves LM / AA and selling them at 18-24 months making 1000 - 1300. It suits us as we have land away from the house. I have a small mortgage, a 1 yr old and a 2 yr old and my wife doesn't work outside the home. I'm managing mainly because we have no farm debt and all land is owned. Keeping the beef cattle certainly helps in our case anyways

Bass Reeves

tractorporn wrote: »

I find it really sad that this statement is fact. Farms like that reared Ireland, educated them and had enough squirreled away to give them a start on their way in adult life. It's a crying shame. Sorry for veering off thread but it's something that's been really annoying me this week.

It always amazes me that lads assume that just because a farm was capable of maintaining a family 30-50 years ago that the same should be true now. I am also bewildered by the assumption that there is an entitlement that farmers wife's should not have to work.

it is not just in farming that this has changed. 30-50 years ago wife's of teachers guards, builders, trades people in generally did not work. Working wife's were the exception rather than the rule. It was not just farming you know. However society has changes may not the way we would have liked but changed none the less.

50-80 years ago some houses had no bathroom, no running water, no central heating etc. There was no washing machine, dishwasher and microwave etc. reality is that lifestyles have changed. These farms can still maintain a family if you are willing to step back to that lifestyle. However I think most farm spouses would prefer to work outside the home rather than go back to that lifestyle.

However I veered from the topic in hand OP over next 6 months the shine will go off beef and start to shine in milk again. Is going OAD an option or a robot like mahoney says. I am not sure if mixing beef and milk will improve incime substancially. On the back of the rag they are talking about a gross profit of 5-600/HA on drystock on the best of farms that is 200-240/acre. 20 acres of drystock will improve income by 4K at best.

tractorporn

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It always amazes me that lads assume that just because a farm was capable of maintaining a family 30-50 years ago that the same should be true now.

I'm not talking about 30 -50 years ago I'm talking about the last 10/15 years. Just our own personal experience here Dad was able to farm full time, pay a mortgage, rear his family, expand the farm from 80 - 150 acres and keep investing in the farm. Surely you must agree that if the income is not there from 150 acres of admittedly moderate quality land, to sustain full time farming that there are serious flaws somewhere in the system?

Willfarman

tractorporn wrote: »

I'm not talking about 30 -50 years ago I'm talking about the last 10/15 years. Just our own personal experience here Dad was able to farm full time, pay a mortgage, rear his family, expand the farm from 80 - 150 acres and keep investing in the farm. Surely you must agree that if the income is not there from 150 acres of admittedly moderate quality land, to sustain full time farming that there are serious flaws somewhere in the system?

There are plenty of 100 + or minus few acre farms around here farming full time and rearing couple o kids. And no starvation or oxygen/shelter depravation visible to me anyway...

Miname

bullnuts wrote: »

I'm saying I'll never make back the money I'll have to pay my brother ! Its not a start I got its a noose because it would also kill me to split up the farm ! Why? Because I love the farm and don't want it broken up after 4 generations

You can make it back it just takes effort, I rented and bought my ground until I got the home place and it's paid for, sheds built animals bought and all, now if your to pay off your brother it's unlikely it will be full market value. What will you throw him maybe 5-600k. It's a small mortgage on 170 acres. Now it's up to you but if your going into it defeated before you start you will end up splitting the farm.

rangler1

Miname wrote: »

You can make it back it just takes effort, I rented and bought my ground until I got the home place and it's paid for, sheds built animals bought and all, now if your to pay off your brother it's unlikely it will be full market value. What will you throw him maybe 5-600k. It's a small mortgage on 170 acres. Now it's up to you but if your going into it defeated before you start you will end up splitting the farm.

serious tax implications in those suggestions, he'd want to be talking to an accountant.
Lease the brothers land might be better

Markcheese

I know this is bit off the op topic but since the inheritance thing came up..
Can farmers leave the farm to a family trust, so all the kids (and maybe grand kids) have a link/connection to the farm, and maybe a say in major farm changes like selling or leasing out the land.. But which ever sibling actually works the land calls the shots and gets the rewards... and gets to hand that chance to one of his/her kids.. if none of them want to farm it could be available to farm to another family member..
A bit convuluted ,but it could help keep farms in family.. and bring in a you want it, you work it mindset, rather than an entitlement attitude..

Grueller

Miname wrote: »

You can make it back it just takes effort, I rented and bought my ground until I got the home place and it's paid for, sheds built animals bought and all, now if your to pay off your brother it's unlikely it will be full market value. What will you throw him maybe 5-600k. It's a small mortgage on 170 acres. Now it's up to you but if your going into it defeated before you start you will end up splitting the farm.

I couldn't disagree more. In a case like this I think the brother that went away made his decision on the farm. Why should the brother who has stayed at home and done all the hard yards have to pay the brother who doesn't want it anything?
I am in a situation where the same thing happened with the brother. He was given a top class education (as we all were), a site and a hand building a house. All in with the value of the site and the help building a house he probably got €250k not counting the cost of the seven years of third level education. This education has enabled him to earn a massive salary while the farm leaves an income which is a fraction of this salary. Surely it is unfair then to burden the one on the farm with debt to enrich the one on a large salary?
I am not saying to give everything to one child but for a farm to have a realistic chance going forward placing a drbt of 5-600k on it is crippling, especially if the farm already has other borrowings.
My parents have the attitude that it is up to them to look after their children, not the work of the one who wants to stay at home.
Perhaps I would feel differently if I were the one who did not want to stay at home.

bullnuts

Miname wrote: »

You can make it back it just takes effort, I rented and bought my ground until I got the home place and it's paid for, sheds built animals bought and all, now if your to pay off your brother it's unlikely it will be full market value. What will you throw him maybe 5-600k. It's a small mortgage on 170 acres. Now it's up to you but if your going into it defeated before you start you will end up splitting the farm.

The farm needs a lot of work ! About 40 acres need reclamation ! Needs more slurry storage and winter accommodation! Fencing drainage water all adds up! Could not manage this and also pay my brother ! No light at the end of that tunnel ! I'm not pessimistic but realistic

Irish Beef

bullnuts wrote: »

I'm saying I'll never make back the money I'll have to pay my brother ! Its not a start I got its a noose because it would also kill me to split up the farm ! Why? Because I love the farm and don't want it broken up after 4 generations

Not sure if your brother would be entitled to that much of the farm, don't the full circumstances. Even if you had to give him 500k the repayment on that kind of a loan over thirty years would be over 2k a month, that would be unsustainable on any farm along with your own mortgage and farm improvements and a living for you and your family, maybe you need to discuss this with all involved. If you have to give him something the only option may be to sell say 40 or 50 acres and pay him off, better of having 120 Acres with no debt. Just one more point here you mentioned this farm is in your family for 4 generations, did every sibling in every generation have to get there share of the farm, I doubt it, so why now should the pressure be put on you to keep farm together and pay off the brother.

jaymla627

bullnuts wrote: »

The farm needs a lot of work ! About 40 acres need reclamation ! Needs more slurry storage and winter accommodation! Fencing drainage water all adds up! Could not manage this and also pay my brother ! No light at the end of that tunnel ! I'm not pessimistic but realistic

Might be a idea to maybe plant the worst 20-30 acres sign it over to your brother and let him draw down the premium on it, our would he be looking for a big wad of cash in a lump sum