BA/Dub ATC Round 2

windowspotter

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qFUZ6oHBft4&sns=fb

Shannon757

Is it the same pilot?

windowspotter

Just seen this posted on the video thread - apologies for posting again - feel free to delete

Lynchy747

Shannon757 wrote: »

Is it the same pilot?

Voice does sound similar!

nehe milner skudder

love it. he was in the right.

Shannon757

windowspotter wrote: »

Just seen this posted on the video thread - apologies for posting again - feel free to delete

It deserves its own thread I think.

pepe the prawn

nehe milner skudder wrote: »

love it. he was in the right.

He was in the right for not maintaining a listening watch on the ground frequency and therefore missing the calls from the ground controller as to the other aircraft deviating from its clearance?

nehe milner skudder

pepe the prawn wrote: »

He was in the right for not maintaining a listening watch on the ground frequency and therefore missing the calls from the ground controller as to the other aircraft deviating from its clearance?

yeah

Shannon757

nehe milner skudder wrote: »

yeah

How?

reason vs religion

The comments by the listening pilots at the end are pathetic.

pepe the prawn

nehe milner skudder wrote: »

yeah

Please elaborate on your reasoning if you wouldn't mind

duskyjoe

reason vs religion wrote: »

The comments by the listening pilots at the end are pathetic.

They reacted to an individual who made a grade A tool of himself on frequency. As for the lady controller.....she is one of the sharpest and best they have in DUB.

rushfan

duskyjoe wrote:

They reacted to an individual who made a grade A tool of himself on frequency. As for the lady controller.....she is one of the sharpest and best they have in DUB.

Yes, my thoughts entirely. To me, listening to that, they articulated their support for an excellent ground controller who is always calm at pressurised moments & whose diction must be the envy of others. And she is one of the best they have, no question.

maximum12

Am I right in thinking there's no recording of atc calling and being ignored by the speedbird as claimed? Feels like this video was created by someone with a vested interest making a point.

Shannon757

maximum12 wrote: »

Am I right in thinking there's no recording of atc calling and being ignored by the speedbird as claimed? Feels like this video was created by someone with a vested interest making a point.

If you knew the date you could get it on the LiveATC archive.

rushfan

How would a recording prove that the BA pilot ignored ATC calling? ????

Cessna_Pilot

To use a catchphrase of the current times, solidarity with the ground controller in question :pac:

She did a top job and handled it spot on as always. The BA pilot on freq was fairly unprofessional in fairness, but it's something that is seems fairly common place these days with them. Personally hear a lot of it around Europe with them on mostly ground freqs.

For those who don't approve of the other pilots comments, I see no harm in it at all, and it reinforces the simple fact the controller was totally in the right and has our support as always.

maximum12

rushfan wrote: »

How would a recording prove that the BA pilot ignored ATC calling? ????

The recording is heavily edited. We don't hear the controller calling the speedbird which is the core of the argument. Clearly the person who published it has an agenda.

Cessna_Pilot

maximum12 wrote: »

The recording is heavily edited. We don't hear the controller calling the speedbird which is the core of the argument. Clearly the person who published it has an agenda.

If you can find out what date this happened on, as mentioned above, you'll be able to find the feed online.

Anyway, the pilot did say he "wasn't listening out" anyway. Now that's damn unprofessional.

maximum12

Cessna_Pilot wrote: »

If you can find out what date this happened on, as mentioned above, you'll be able to find the feed o.

Yeah I get that but we're all commenting on the edited recording as posted.

rushfan

Well as far as I'm concerned, unless you were in the BA cockpit, you can't say that the skipper ignored ATC calling him.

Shannon757

It was today it happened so you just need to find what time the flight went out. But BA 81 is a flight to Accra?

JCX BXC

Today is likely the date, as today was the day with the 767 blocking the taxiway. Unsure of the time.

As for the possible editing of the audio, it's quite likely instead due to it not being heard. The DUB frequency is extremely busy at this time of year, especially this year, so its quite possible that the tower, approach, holding or clearance frequency crossed over it.

nehe milner skudder

maximum12 wrote: »

Am I right in thinking there's no recording of atc calling and being ignored by the speedbird as claimed? Feels like this video was created by someone with a vested interest making a point.

Correct

maximum12

Shannon757 wrote: »

It was today it happened so you just need to find what time the flight went out. But BA 81 is a flight to Accra?

Call sign was "81 delta"

JCX BXC

nehe milner skudder wrote: »

Correct

You need to expand on this.

sailing

File a safety report?

What a fool. There is a time and place to bite your lip and say nothing. He's like the spoilt kid in school who's just has his sweets taken off him.
I must send this to a few buddies in BA. I've no doubt they'll be cringing at this.

b757

19/6/2016, around 1510z.

BAW81D / BA837 2016-06-19 Dublin (DUB) London (LHR) A319 G-EUPY

Listening back to the LiveATC recording seems quite jumbled up regarding the different frequencies. No sign of "heavy" editing as some posters are claiming. Only way to tell is if there was a dedicated ground recording online - to which there isn't.

Cessna_Pilot

I think we can safely assume the calls were made from the controller to the BA aircraft going by the responses and comments from other guys on the freq after it all happened. Anyway the ground controller would NOT say she had called them several times if she hadn't. You can take that as a damn straight fact.

The controller in question, as mentioned by other posters, is one of the best in DUB, and can handle and is more than able for spoilt brats with big egos who throw their toys out of the pram when caught out.
Which is exactly what's happened here, the BA guy's missed a call, actually several, due to his own admission of "not listening out" (on an active freq at a major airport!) and has even responded with "oh so it's his fault" about another aircraft's pilot. Seriously unprofessional behaviour.

Mentioning he would be "filing a safety report" highlights his unprofessional approach to it all in that he uses the threat of a safety report as his his own little safety net.

The crux of the matter is, if you miss a call on the rt because you're starting engines etc fair enough, aviate navigate communicate as the old saying goes. Apologize and move on. Life's too short for bull**** like this.

But, the fact that the pilot in question immediately got very defensive, arrogant and rude on the rt over something actually very minor is indefensible.

Bsal

British Airways snobbery at it's best. I hope he feels really embarrassed.

reason vs religion

duskyjoe wrote: »

They reacted to an individual who made a grade A tool of himself on frequency. As for the lady controller.....she is one of the sharpest and best they have in DUB.

rushfan wrote: »

Yes, my thoughts entirely. To me, listening to that, they articulated their support for an excellent ground controller who is always calm at pressurised moments & whose diction must be the envy of others. And she is one of the best they have, no question.

I'm referring to the two at the very end: "Oh my god," and, "Tool". Indisputably unprofessional. But I suppose what riles me the most is that I've experienced situations where I've been in an argument with someone and others have felt entitled to make snarky comments from the side. The pilot may well be judged in hindsight as being in the wrong, but self-appointed arbiters of a situation, who are usually motivated by loyalty rather than desire to speak the truth, often suppress legitimate dissent and threaten only to escalate a situation. While not unprofessional, I thought the other shows of support were unnecessary.

I agree that it sounds as though the controller handled it well.

Shannon Control

"Just to the point of order" (some will get that) I thought that the BA pilot was completely in the wrong for making a big deal about it on the RT. The other pilot's reactions, although unprofessional are hilarious, they hear her everyday and are sticking up for there home controller.
The controller does warn them BOTH about the other during push, but the call signs get clipped, hence neither heard and ATC had no way of knowing this.
Another interesting catch indeed!

martinsvi

nehe milner skudder wrote: »

love it. he was in the right.

as far as I can gather, there was no issue at all. Stobart was issued a conditional clearance to ES B, BA was issued a conditional clearance to ES C, refer to the chart where points C, B and stand 125 are: http://iaip.iaa.ie/iaip/Published%20Files/AIP%20Files/AD/Chart%20Files/EIDW/EI_AD_2_EIDW_24-2_en.pdf

apparently Stobart started pushing back first and BA guy didn't like it. They were both waiting on the same ryanair to pass, looking at where C is, you can deduct that BA should have been cleared from conflict sooner than Stobart. If for some reason he missed his spot which allowed the Stobart to move, our British friend can only blame himself for not pushing sooner.

Tenger

Can we all keep in mind that we are commenting on an edited version of the ground frequency. As some posters have mentioned, unless we can heard the entire exchange using LiveATC archives we cant judge the full situation.
We do not know all the facts on this matter and we do not know what was happening outside of what was included in this recording.
Its very easy to quarterback any situation after the fact while sitting at a keyboard, while under time pressure in an operational environment you have many things happening at once and are often planning 2-5 steps ahead.
This recording gives the impression that the BA flight crew member was unhappy with the ground crew giving him insturctions that he felt the ATC ground controller should have passed to him, however she stated that she had been trying to get that info to him. The instructions were clarified and the discussion was ended professionally by the controller.
Perhaps his warning about filing a report was not directed at the controller herself but merely at the situation overall, it could be seen that the statement was a courtesy to the controller as he was unhappy with the overall situation rather than the individual herself. We may never know.

January

This has been picked up by the tabloid's.

Shannon Control

Tenger wrote: »

Can we all keep in mind that we are commenting on an edited version of the ground frequency. As some posters have mentioned, unless we can heard the entire exchange using LiveATC archives we cant judge the full situation.
We do not know all the facts on this matter and we do not know what was happening outside of what was included in this recording.
This recording gives the impression that the BA flight crew member was unhappy with the ground crew giving him details that he felt the ATC ground controller should have passed to him, however she stated that she had been trying to get that info to him.
Perhaps his warning about filing a report was not directed at the controller herself but merely at the situation overall, it could be seen that the statement was a courtesy to the controller as he was unhappy with the overall situation rather than the individual herself.

The flight was also delayed by 1 hour 30 due to the UAL 767 and congestion, which probably sent him over the edge when he evaluated what was happening.

daelight

If anything, it enforces a basic airmanship quality required at all times - Keep Your Cool(R)(TM)

PukkaStukka

If the BA lad makes his complaint as indicated then everything will have to be fully looked at and then all of facts will be established, including those radio TX's not included in that clip.

smoke_mirrors

This is actually round 3 from BA.

Shannon757

smoke_mirrors wrote: »

This is actually round 3 from BA.

What was round 2?

smoke_mirrors

Shannon757 wrote: »

What was round 2?

I don't know the specific name of it. There was 2 arguments between BA and the woman controller in the past year or so before this.

This is the third one I've heard.

trellheim

Why did a United 767 hold up a LHR flight ? [ did I miss something ? ]

billie1b

trellheim wrote: »

Why did a United 767 hold up a LHR flight ? [ did I miss something ? ]

Emergency landing with a hydraulic leak, was sat on the taxi way blocking movements while getting checked over by fire services.

Shannon757

smoke_mirrors wrote: »

I don't know the specific name of it. There was 2 arguments between BA and the woman controller in the past year or so before this.

This is the third one I've heard.

I know about the one where the BA pilot had to do checks on the taxiway but I don't know of any others.

donkey balls

The first one could be this one Speedbird 845 the other one I'm thinking about was either late last year or early this year, It was during some really crap WX and involved a BA A 319 there was a lot of go arounds and diversions happening at dub due to the winds.
From memory the male ATC gave the BA crew the WX at Dub they ended up going around when asked by Dub ATC what they wanted to do the BA crew mentioned about something not being safe and that they would be filling a safety report and headed back to LHR.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWg7IpphPc8

smoke_mirrors

Ah yea now I remember. There was the one where the BA pilot got upset during the bad weather and hadvto return to London, gave the controller a hard time

Second time was when the BA pilot held up the controller and refused to follow ATC instructions, again giving controller a hard time.

What's BA's problem with Dublin ATC? I wonder if its been the same pilot for all 3 incidents. Either way it's really poor carry on, and id wager he wouldn't have been half as aggressive if it was a male controller.

lintdrummer

6 of one, half dozen of the other to my mind. BA crew shouldn't have started the argument on frequency, but the controller was too defensive in her response. Considering how much pressure she was under at the time I'm not surprised how she responded though. At the same time all the other lads chiming in on frequency were fairly unprofessional and they should be given a slap on the wrist. It's not a school playground they're in. Professional pilots should be aware that they're broadcasts are being listened to, recorded and archived and this kind of behavior does not instill confidence in their professionalism.

billy few mates

Regardless of who's wrong and who's right in this particular case, threads like this one and the many others that have sprung up on the internet about it give ordinary Joe Soaps a rare opportunity to pass judgement on the professionalism (or otherwise) of an airline pilot and a British one to boot.
Many of the armchair regulators will find against him for that reason alone it doesn't really matter which side you choose...

BonkeyDonker

With the proliferation of social media and the publicity that situations bring does anybody reckon that the IAA may try look for a similar situation to the UK where it is against the law to broadcast ATC communications?

Far fetched I know, but stranger things have happened.

EchoIndia

BonkeyDonker wrote: »

With the proliferation of social media and the publicity that situations bring does anybody reckon that the IAA may try look for a similar situation to the UK where it is against the law to broadcast ATC communications?

I'm pretty sure it is already of doubtful legality but for decades a blind eye has been turned to monitoring of such comms as long as people are not listening in to the Gardaí themselves.

billy few mates

Interesting dilemma, most of us go to work and get to go about our business with a reasonable expectation of privacy, these guys get to have almost their every word broadcast and analysed and find themselves getting second guessed and judged by people who have to ask what it all means so they can adopt a stance from which to aim their criticism.