I invoice you pay !

kerry cow

I asked the question earlier , how would our factories both milk and meat like us the farmers to employ the staff to test our milk content and our meat grade and then invoice them to pay us . We are already paying for this service but have no control .
What other business would let the buyer set the price .We need to have some control and who is going to stand up and do it .
Isn't it simple business that we show what we have to sell , set a price , agreed and get paid . Where do our farm political leaders stand or are there fingers in the pie ,

mylesm

Farming is hardly a simple Business

Avatar MIA

kerry cow wrote: »

I asked the question earlier , how would our factories both milk and meat like us the farmers to employ the staff to test our milk content and our meat grade and then invoice them to pay us . We are already paying for this service but have no control .
What other business would let the buyer set the price .We need to have some control and who is going to stand up and do it .
Isn't it simple business that we show what we have to sell , set a price , agreed and get paid . Where do our farm political leaders stand or are there fingers in the pie ,

When there is little competition it's a buyers market.

I've said before the best thing beef farmers could do would be to set up an abattoir co-op. However, it seems the collective will/foresight of the older generations is no longer there.

whelan2

Avatar MIA wrote: »

When there is little competition it's a buyers market.

I've said before the best thing beef farmers could do would be to set up an abattoir co-op. However, it seems the collective will/foresight of the older generations is no longer there.

Yes the fight is gone, Glanbia wouldnt dream of carrying on like they are now even 5 years ago. Sure we are letting them away with it.

Avatar MIA

whelan2 wrote: »

Sure we are letting them away with it.

It's a sad situation.

The modern show of fight is the odd picket at a beef factory gate. This is a very weak strategy.

Innovation is required.

pedigree 6

Avatar MIA wrote: »

When there is little competition it's a buyers market.

I've said before the best thing beef farmers could do would be to set up an abattoir co-op. However, it seems the collective will/foresight of the older generations is no longer there.

A lot of the smaller abattoirs were closed down by the dept/government civil servants.
There is one small abattoir here and he always beats the bigger factories for price and likewise I send some stock to him.
Lack of competition is a bad thing for any seller no matter what industry you're in.
I've heard of mobile abattoirs I think in Norway and could be explored in the future here.
Someone else told me that some French restaurants were looking for irish lamb from a small abattoir in Ireland. To be able to name the farm and butcher who killed the lambs. They were directed to the bigger factories they wouldn't buy from them.

Rationalisation that's what they call it here. Nonsense I call it.

Avatar MIA

pedigree 6 wrote: »

A lot of the smaller abattoirs were closed down by the dept/government civil servants.
There is one small abattoir here and he always beats the bigger factories for price and likewise I send some stock to him.
Lack of competition is a bad thing for any seller no matter what industry you're in.
I've heard of mobile abattoirs I think in Norway and could be explored in the future here.
Someone else told me that some French restaurants were looking for irish lamb from a small abattoir in Ireland. To be able to name the farm and butcher who killed the lambs. They were directed to the bigger factories they wouldn't buy from them.

Rationalisation that's what they call it here. Nonsense I call it.

Some good ideas there.

There's a new enough factory, west Meath I think, opened up in the last few years. Set up by former AIBP employees.

But, a farmer owned co_op could do some serious price changes.

Username John

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Some good ideas there.

There's a new enough factory, west Meath I think, opened up in the last few years. Set up by former AIBP employees.

But, a farmer owned co_op could do some serious price changes.

Is it feasible though?

How does the meat industry in Ireland work? The Irish dairy board sells Irish milk abroad - is this it?
How does it work for meat? Or is it all privately done?
Just wondering how would a new co-op go about selling its product?

Structuring / finding investment for such a co-op could be fun too... How would this work? How were the original co-ops funded?

_Brian

Username John wrote: »

Is it feasible though?

How does the meat industry in Ireland work? The Irish dairy board sells Irish milk abroad - is this it?
How does it work for meat? Or is it all privately done?
Just wondering how would a new co-op go about selling its product?

Structuring / finding investment for such a co-op could be fun too... How would this work? How were the original co-ops funded?

Wonder could it be marketed to the retail multiples along the lines of "Irish fair trade beef" ??
Would be a great selling point.

Base price

kerry cow wrote: »

I asked the question earlier , how would our factories both milk and meat like us the farmers to employ the staff to test our milk content and our meat grade and then invoice them to pay us . We are already paying for this service but have no control .
What other business would let the buyer set the price .We need to have some control and who is going to stand up and do it .
Isn't it simple business that we show what we have to sell , set a price , agreed and get paid . Where do our farm political leaders stand or are there fingers in the pie ,

Buyers/consumers always set the price - methinks you have been residing under a head of cabbage!!

Avatar MIA

Username John wrote: »

Is it feasible though?

If you catch Larry Goodman as he exits his helicopter ask him.

kerry cow

Well base price do you set the price of feed and fertiliser and do you test their constituents and tell the supplier what your going to pay ? So when you go do to the local for a litre of milk you have the old haggle .

davidk1394

whelan2 wrote: »

Yes the fight is gone, Glanbia wouldnt dream of carrying on like they are now even 5 years ago. Sure we are letting them away with it.

We need to do what the French do. They take no sh1t over there

ganmo

kerry cow wrote: »

Well base price do you set the price of feed and fertiliser and do you test their constituents and tell the supplier what your going to pay ? So when you go do to the local for a litre of milk you have the old haggle .

the dept do testing on feed to check that it is matching what is on the label
normal practice for pricing materials is you ask what the material costs then you can agree or disagree and if you don't agree its up to the supplier to come up with a revised offer or both walk away for it

Avatar MIA

ganmo wrote: »

normal practice for pricing materials is you ask what the material costs then you can agree or disagree and if you don't agree its up to the supplier to come up with a revised offer or both walk away for it

How often does that happen in Tescos, when picking up steak, potatoes or milk?

barnaman

Avatar MIA wrote: »

How often does that happen in Tescos, when picking up steak, potatoes or milk?

Well it does now in the sense that Tesco offer price match. If the price is lower elsewhere they refund the difference. That 's common practice with most chain supermarkets now.

Avatar MIA

barnaman wrote: »

Well it does now in the sense that Tesco offer price match. If the price is lower elsewhere they refund the difference. That 's common practice with most chain supermarkets now.

So, all the chain supermarkets are now offering more or less the same price. Hmm, what's that called again?

And you still think the individual customer has the power?

rangler1

kerry cow wrote: »

Well base price do you set the price of feed and fertiliser and do you test their constituents and tell the supplier what your going to pay ? So when you go do to the local for a litre of milk you have the old haggle .

Yea tell the agri merchants what you're going to pay, see how many deliver what you want.
Likewise factory tells you what they're going to pay, you can decide whether to deliver as well....same thing isn't it.
Except it isn't is it, farmers deliver without quibble,(apart from whingeing to and about IFA) You couldn't make it up.

mf240

You can price agri merchants and if they are dearer than elsewhere you can go elsewhere.

Same in Tescos, the price is thereon the shelf you can decide if you want to buy it or not.

Id like to see prices anounced in advance of the product being supplied rather than the middle the following month.

whelan2

mf240 wrote: »

You can price agri merchants and if they are dearer than elsewhere you can go elsewhere.

Same in Tescos, the price is thereon the shelf you can decide if you want to buy it or not.

Id like to see prices anounced in advance of the product being supplied rather than the middle the following month.

Ah they have to wait and see what everyone else is paying so they can pay less

alps

Avatar MIA wrote: »

But, a farmer owned co_op could do some serious price changes.

Farmer coops have tried it, but have failed...

Simple fact is a farmer run coop can never run with the ruthless efficiency of big business..

ganmo

mf240 wrote: »

You can price agri merchants and if they are dearer than elsewhere you can go elsewhere.

Same in Tescos, the price is thereon the shelf you can decide if you want to buy it or not.

Id like to see prices anounced in advance of the product being supplied rather than the middle the following month.

That's one of the big weaknesses of the dairy sector as I see it

tomwaterford

rangler1 wrote: »

Yea tell the agri merchants what you're going to pay, see how many deliver what you want.
Likewise factory tells you what they're going to pay, you can decide whether to deliver as well....same thing isn't it.
Except it isn't is it, farmers deliver without quibble,(apart from whingeing to and about IFA) You couldn't make it up.

It pains me to say ifa isn't wrong here (have own local issues with ifa)

But the big problem is there's just too much beef produced in Ireland...


Even I see factories are calling for extra million lambs a year...but what's the point...as soon as there's any bit of a glut the price falls away to fcuk every year

Avatar MIA

alps wrote: »

Farmer coops have tried it, but have failed...

Simple fact is a farmer run coop can never run with the ruthless efficiency of big business..

No, they wouldn't be a s ruthless, but co_ops have been very successful in the past.

keep going

One major flaw in thinking this way is businesses want a product , they go to a supplier ,agree a price, put in an order and get an invoice on delivery .farmers on the other hand basically p.lank the product up in front of the customer and says what will you give me for it.

rangler1

Avatar MIA wrote: »

No, they wouldn't be a s ruthless, but co_ops have been very successful in the past.

Farmers tried to set up meat factories in the sixties and wasted a lot of money on a good time.
It wouldn't have been hard to be successful processing milk, protected markets benefited them the same as farmers, tbf the PLCs knew when to drop the processing side, didn't they

Avatar MIA

rangler1 wrote: »

Farmers tried to set up meat factories in the sixties and wasted a lot of money on a good time.
It wouldn't have been hard to be successful processing milk, protected markets benefited them the same as farmers, tbf the PLCs knew when to drop the processing side, didn't they

Have some Faith in farmers. Why don't you think they could manage it, while others have been very successful, with a new factory doing well after opening a few years back. The 60's may as well have been 100 years ago.

Username John

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Have some Faith in farmers. Why don't you think they could manage it, while others have been very successful, with a new factory doing well after opening a few years back. The 60's may as well have been 100 years ago.

How would it work though? It's great to start have some faith, but...

Where would the capital come from?

Would farmers give the money to start it? I think a lot wouldn't...
It would take a lot of investment and a long time to get going, during which the existing factories couldn't easily start paying a better price - great in the short term, but again, would farmers stay supporting for potential long term gains - I don't know...

I just doing think it's feasible - would love to be proven wrong... Just my thoughts on it...

Water John

Cooperatives seem to not have made a great deal generally of operating in the meat business.
Barryroe coop having bought Staunton's pig processing seem to be bucking the trend.
Truly Irish brand also owned by pig farmers. Excellent products.
There is no magical reason why it shouldn't work.
As some one else posted, start with the consumer and what they want.

fepper

Water John wrote: »

Cooperatives seem to not have made a great deal generally of operating in the meat business.
Barryroe coop having bought Staunton's pig processing seem to be bucking the trend.
Truly Irish brand also owned by pig farmers. Excellent products.
There is no magical reason why it shouldn't work.
As some one else posted, start with the consumer and what they want.

Think truly Irish brand sold to musgraves(SuperValu)

Avatar MIA

Username John wrote: »

How would it work though? It's great to start have some faith, but...

Where would the capital come from?

Would farmers give the money to start it? I think a lot wouldn't...
It would take a lot of investment and a long time to get going, during which the existing factories couldn't easily start paying a better price - great in the short term, but again, would farmers stay supporting for potential long term gains - I don't know...

I just doing think it's feasible - would love to be proven wrong... Just my thoughts on it...

The alternative is to wait for the meat industry to develop a conscience :pac:

I'm not saying it would be easy. I do know from personal experience how profitable it can be.

pedigree 6

http://ncmc-co.com.au/

Why did the coop meat processing fail in this country?
Only surmising here but did it not have the support of the government?
Or governments change but the top civil servants in the dept of ag have the real power and if they don't want it they will stop it.
As for saying it would be anticompetitive it wouldn't be any worse than the way this country is heading and being run by one processor and there's no complaints from the government on that score and not every farmer would support it as tied into contracts with existing factories.

Edit: I really can't see why it wouldn't work here.
Every farmer who wants to take part in it put some money up front to start it off and get shares in return.
Only farmers that provide money will be allowed supply.
The coop could also borrow money from the banks and eu funds to set up and maybe some gov funding.
Size doesn't really matter for such a project as the likes of truly irish for pigmeat and others show in this country.

patsy_mccabe

It amazes me no end how how people can't grasp the basic principles of how free markets work. The market sets the price, not the farmer, not the COOPs, not the meat factories.

Avatar MIA

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

not the meat factories.

Oh, bless your innocence.

Base price

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

It amazes me no end how how people can't grasp the basic principles of how free markets work. The market sets the price, not the farmer, not the COOPs, not the meat factories.

IMO the meat factories are the tail that wags the dog. They have done so for the last 25+ years. It's not their fault as they capitalised with the then Political/Agri backing at the time.
Some have become European and/or World players - the only downside is that we Irish producers have seldom benefited.

ganmo

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

It amazes me no end how how people can't grasp the basic principles of how free markets work. The market sets the price, not the farmer, not the COOPs, not the meat factories.

The market will do what it can get away with. The factories care about 2 things, how cheap they can source and what price the consumer is willing to pay.

alps

We have an inferiority complex...

We believe we are the bottom of the pile....

We're not...We are just one link in a long chain, but we can't get it in our heads that there are links under us in the chain, and while price cuts are passed into us, we never pass them on to our suppliers.

Consumer
Retailer
Wholesaler
Dirstibuter
Processor
Buyer
Farmer
Contractor
Fuel Distributes
Mechanics
Machine sales
Distributes
Manufacturers
Engine builders
And on and on

While selling we ask......how much will you give me

When buying we ask...how much will.I give you...

That type of nonsense needs to stop....

mylesm

kerry cow wrote: »

I asked the question earlier , how would our factories both milk and meat like us the farmers to employ the staff to test our milk content and our meat grade and then invoice them to pay us . We are already paying for this service but have no control .
What other business would let the buyer set the price .We need to have some control and who is going to stand up and do it .
Isn't it simple business that we show what we have to sell , set a price , agreed and get paid . Where do our farm political leaders stand or are there fingers in the pie ,

Not very sure that the most subsidised industry in Europe can argue this line

Remove all Subsidies like New Zealand and let Farmers compete as you want

TITANIUM.

mylesm wrote: »

Not very sure that the most subsidised industry in Europe can argue this line

Remove all Subsidies like New Zealand and let Farmers compete as you want

So I take it that you won't have a problem paying a tenner for a litre of milk and 50 quid for a few chops.

It's the consumer that's subsidised.

mylesm

TITANIUM. wrote: »

So I take it that you won't have a problem paying a tenner for a litre of milk and 50 quid for a few chops.

It's the consumer that's subsidised.

Dont think so New Zealand went through this and look at them no subsidies and let market decide

One large farm run efficiently is way better than what we have a collection of so called Family Farms which are heavily subsidised and grant aided etc etc

Water John

The ratio of dairy cows to workers is about one to a hundred. So one can have five families making a living from 500 cows or a large farm, one owner with four other workers. The odds are theses will be as cheap labour as possible so possibly East European.

So you want dairying in Ireland to go the route of pig farming?

Bass Reeves

mylesm wrote: »

Not very sure that the most subsidised industry in Europe can argue this line

Remove all Subsidies like New Zealand and let Farmers compete as you want

mylesm wrote: »

Dont think so New Zealand went through this and look at them no subsidies and let market decide

One large farm run efficiently is way better than what we have a collection of so called Family Farms which are heavily subsidised and grant aided etc etc

The New Zealand set up is totally different to European model. Not only is there no subsidies, there is no regulations. Farmers can out winter cows, they can spread as much slurry and fertlizer as they want where and when they want. They can stock at whatever rate they want.They can drop calves at end of the road for the bobby truck to collect and can bury any dead animal where it falls. They can take down hedges remove ditches, put up new sheds without any interference from local councils.

It is unlikely that European farms could source the cheap labour that would be needed to run multiple large farms. Else where in European prices are higher than Irish prices for both Milk meat and veg. We are a net agri product exporter . We export 90% of what we produce. We have multiple large multi national food companies and none of these are clammering for an end to subsidies. While most would like farm's to be larger they also realize the inhearent danger of rapid system change.

einn32

TITANIUM. wrote: »

mylesm wrote: »

Not very sure that the most subsidised industry in Europe can argue this line

Remove all Subsidies like New Zealand and let Farmers compete as you want

So I take it that you won't have a problem paying a tenner for a litre of milk and 50 quid for a few chops.

It's the consumer that's subsidised.

I've seen this argument a few times and I don't understand it. Why would removing subsidies lead to milk/meat becoming more expensive to purchase?

Yeah in Oz/New Zealand they do get away with a lot more in comparison to regulations in Irish farming. But they are still regulated. There is some merit in the argument that why should one industry be subsidised to look after the environment etc. when other industries aren't but then it's food we are talking about. Is food that important to people nowadays as in they take it as a given? It's always available in the western world for those who can afford it. I've never seen a food shortage,in fact we are seeing food mountains again.

Does having subsidies lock us out of certain markets?

mylesm

kerry cow wrote: »

I asked the question earlier , how would our factories both milk and meat like us the farmers to employ the staff to test our milk content and our meat grade and then invoice them to pay us . We are already paying for this service but have no control .
What other business would let the buyer set the price .We need to have some control and who is going to stand up and do it .
Isn't it simple business that we show what we have to sell , set a price , agreed and get paid . Where do our farm political leaders stand or are there fingers in the pie ,

I only replied to the original post where the poster asked why he should not be treated like any other Business

Farming in Ireland is nothing like Farming in The rest of the world we still have a throwback to the time of Occupation and the small farmer

I grew up on a rural farm Dairy but it was a joke trying to eek out an existense in between Creamery Cheques and we were the same as many families around us but as people got more educated etc they could not live that way so gradually the smaller farms went and now in my area there are way fewer farms the small one have been absorbed into larger

This as I was saying is the natural progression and is only stopped from going further by political lobbying etc

But Op if you want to be treated like a simple business well be careful what you wish for

mylesm

Water John wrote: »

The ratio of dairy cows to workers is about one to a hundred. So one can have five families making a living from 500 cows or a large farm, one owner with four other workers. The odds are theses will be as cheap labour as possible so possibly East European.

So you want dairying in Ireland to go the route of pig farming?

But that was not OP it asked should we be treated like simple business

5 Families cannot make a living from 500 Cows without being heavily aided by the state ie Taxpayer I am not saying thats right or wrong but no way 5 Families could without aid

Bass Reeves

mylesm wrote: »

But that was not OP it asked should we be treated like simple business

5 Families cannot make a living from 500 Cows without being heavily aided by the state ie Taxpayer I am not saying thats right or wrong but no way 5 Families could without aid

The labour requirement for 500 cows is about 1/100 cows. With just seasonal, family help and using contractors to do work like slurry, fertlizer etc can go to 120-150. After that you have to employ labour. A farm worker will not put in the hours a farm owner will. Neither will he do the management of the herd as well, watching for animals that are sick or hurt. Neither will they spot individuals that have reduced o/p for such reasons. In the end you will have five family's ( 4 farm labourers and a owner/manager) still dependent on the 500 cows but often with a lower o/p per cow. You may even have a situation that where you may need a higher number of employees or use contractor's at a higher level.

On such a farm to reduce labour costs you would need state of the art milking parlours if you want to reduce labour costs however capital cost are massive. If you look at it across the world bigger milking units are more susceptible to price movement. As well with the exception of NZ most bigger type operations are based on feedlot type operations where the feed is bought to the cows. These are dependent on low energy costs ( most use maize the price of which is dependent on whether it is in demand for ethanol production. Unless milking parlour technologies ( and I doubt it as it is a mechanical/techinicial nearly robotic type operation) gets way cheaper then labour cost and availability will determine cow numbers on Irish farms.

In other countries such as the US cheap labour at minimum cost is used to keep cow numbers/farm high.. Would we accept a 500/cow farm paying 6-7 euro/hour to farm labouers and even if we did could we access such labour and retain it.

mylesm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The labour requirement for 500 cows is about 1/100 cows. With just seasonal, family help and using contractors to do work like slurry, fertlizer etc can go to 120-150. After that you have to employ labour. A farm worker will not put in the hours a farm owner will. Neither will he do the management of the herd as well, watching for animals that are sick or hurt. Neither will they spot individuals that have reduced o/p for such reasons. In the end you will have five family's ( 4 farm labourers and a owner/manager) still dependent on the 500 cows but often with a lower o/p per cow. You may even have a situation that where you may need a higher number of employees or use contractor's at a higher level.

On such a farm to reduce labour costs you would need state of the art milking parlours if you want to reduce labour costs however capital cost are massive. If you look at it across the world bigger milking units are more susceptible to price movement. As well with the exception of NZ most bigger type operations are based on feedlot type operations where the feed is bought to the cows. These are dependent on low energy costs ( most use maize the price of which is dependent on whether it is in demand for ethanol production. Unless milking parlour technologies ( and I doubt it as it is a mechanical/techinicial nearly robotic type operation) gets way cheaper then labour cost and availability will determine cow numbers on Irish farms.

In other countries such as the US cheap labour at minimum cost is used to keep cow numbers/farm high.. Would we accept a 500/cow farm paying 6-7 euro/hour to farm labouers and even if we did could we access such labour and retain it.

But you are now arguing a social question the op asked to be treated like a simple business

It is for Society to Decide if they want multiple smaller Farms Heavily Grant aided etc etc or Larger units with less Employees

There is no Doubt that Irelands Output could be done by way less Farms but that is another Question

As regards US Cheap labor Farmers in Ireland certainly have not got a good record on employment Agricultural Labourers are amongst the lowest paid

We need Food and Society either pays Farmers to produce it by paying for produce and Grant aiding farmers to produce the product or we go to the model of open market where large Farms will produce same produce and market decides price

Thats not my Decision thats political nothing else why Else have Farmers got bodys to lobby Politicans

But the fact that Farmers are paid to produce under current model is the way it is thats just a fact

But to say there is no other way is not correct IF that was the Case we would still have 10 Acre farms supporting Familys at almost poverty level

Bass Reeves

mylesm wrote: »

But you are now arguing a social question the op asked to be treated like a simple business

It is for Society to Decide if they want multiple smaller Farms Heavily Grant aided etc etc or Larger units with less Employees

There is no Doubt that Irelands Output could be done by way less Farms but that is another Question

As regards US Cheap labor Farmers in Ireland certainly have not got a good record on employment Agricultural Labourers are amongst the lowest paid

We need Food and Society either pays Farmers to produce it by paying for produce and Grant aiding farmers to produce the product or we go to the model of open market where large Farms will produce same produce and market decides price

Thats not my Decision thats political nothing else why Else have Farmers got bodys to lobby Politicans

But the fact that Farmers are paid to produce under current model is the way it is thats just a fact

But to say there is no other way is not correct IF that was the Case we would still have 10 Acre farms supporting Familys at almost poverty level

No I am not arguing a social question rather I am point out the obstacles in the way in the way of larger units. You are under the assumption that larger units are more efficient and that labour costs are lower.

You made the point about how agriculture labour rates are low and you are right . However this is not just an Irish issue it is a world wide issue. It is not just at farm level. Meat processors are not noted as good payers and you can add that to any food production system. It is immaterial whether it is at farm level or not.

If you look at the economic facts it is the larger units that go bankrupt, these are usually heavily indebted and using technology and cannot survive downturn and pay there costs. In reality the most efficient are those farmers milking from about 70-120 cows. In Ireland this seems to be the optimum unit size. You seem under the misconception that larger units can produce milk at a lower cost the reality is that in general they cannot. There are a few exceptions however these in general are operating several medium size units rather than one larger unit. The larger a unit the further a cow has to travel twice a day which in turn lowers production.

In dairy there are so many varible it is hard to see them all clearly from the outside. Dairying is really linked to energy costs. It was cheap energy ( mainly in the form of grain) that caused the surge in milk production from the 70's- noughties. However the diversion of grain from food production to energy production reduced feedlot production. Cheaper energy again from 2012-present increased production however as energy increases in price again it will again reduce feedlot production.

Feedlot production is dependent on cheap energy in the form of grain and cheap labour. Grazing systems are in general are dependent on farm size, access to it and what ever labour system is in place. Optimum sizes farms will have high output however just assuming that a 500 cow farm is more efficient with an owner and 3-8 labour units rather than 3-5 smaller dairy units farms is an assumption that is not true. You also assume that all dairy farms are heavily grant aided and subsdized however this assumption that is again wrong.

Labour cost are the big issue at present as the upturn in the economy draws labour away from agriculture( it is not just a dairy issue it is an agri contracting issue at present). IMO it will be the issue that limits production over the next few years.

Your analogy at the end about the 10 acre farm forgets the assumption that people have a choice. This choice has increased farm size but it is not farm size or grants that determine production ( this is why across the EU Ireland is the only country that has increased milk production substancially) rather it is labour and energy costs.

Water John

There is very little subsidy into a lot of dairy farms. You could possibly equate it to the cost of the high level of environmental and animal welfare control.
Thus lets say the profit from production is the net farm income.
The efficiency and optimum size is not a linear graph but rather U shaped.
It is as Bass says.
An expert was recently advocating for large units in the media. I answered by asking him to put clothes on the proposition. I think Bass has done this very well.
The family farm is actually the optimum efficiency unit.
It will survive the cycles of price best. It also has, as a bonus a lot of rural social benefits.

I agree with the OP that it is outrageous that the buyer of the produce actually tests its quality. that should be independent.

mylesm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

No I am not arguing a social question rather I am point out the obstacles in the way in the way of larger units. You are under the assumption that larger units are more efficient and that labour costs are lower.

You made the point about how agriculture labour rates are low and you are right . However this is not just an Irish issue it is a world wide issue. It is not just at farm level. Meat processors are not noted as good payers and you can add that to any food production system. It is immaterial whether it is at farm level or not.

If you look at the economic facts it is the larger units that go bankrupt, these are usually heavily indebted and using technology and cannot survive downturn and pay there costs. In reality the most efficient are those farmers milking from about 70-120 cows. In Ireland this seems to be the optimum unit size. You seem under the misconception that larger units can produce milk at a lower cost the reality is that in general they cannot. There are a few exceptions however these in general are operating several medium size units rather than one larger unit. The larger a unit the further a cow has to travel twice a day which in turn lowers production.

In dairy there are so many varible it is hard to see them all clearly from the outside. Dairying is really linked to energy costs. It was cheap energy ( mainly in the form of grain) that caused the surge in milk production from the 70's- noughties. However the diversion of grain from food production to energy production reduced feedlot production. Cheaper energy again from 2012-present increased production however as energy increases in price again it will again reduce feedlot production.

Feedlot production is dependent on cheap energy in the form of grain and cheap labour. Grazing systems are in general are dependent on farm size, access to it and what ever labour system is in place. Optimum sizes farms will have high output however just assuming that a 500 cow farm is more efficient with an owner and 3-8 labour units rather than 3-5 smaller dairy units farms is an assumption that is not true. You also assume that all dairy farms are heavily grant aided and subsdized however this assumption that is again wrong.

Labour cost are the big issue at present as the upturn in the economy draws labour away from agriculture( it is not just a dairy issue it is an agri contracting issue at present). IMO it will be the issue that limits production over the next few years.

Your analogy at the end about the 10 acre farm forgets the assumption that people have a choice. This choice has increased farm size but it is not farm size or grants that determine production ( this is why across the EU Ireland is the only country that has increased milk production substancially) rather it is labour and energy costs.

As i said It is a choice have Family Farms but they are heavily Grant aided and subsidised they would also go Bankrupt if they were not supported

One can easily see the Payments Paid on the website

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/a-full-list-of-everything-eligible-for-new-young-farmer-grants/

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/eu-farm-payments-to-irish-farmers-revealed-by-department/

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/farmerschemespayments/

6270red

mylesm wrote: »

As i said It is a choice have Family Farms but they are heavily Grant aided and subsidised they would also go Bankrupt if they were not supported

One can easily see the Payments Paid on the website

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/a-full-list-of-everything-eligible-for-new-young-farmer-grants/

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/eu-farm-payments-to-irish-farmers-revealed-by-department/

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/farmerschemespayments/

Family farmer here and it defiantly wouldn't go bankrupt if payments stopped.
I think you like bash farmers looking at some of your other posts.