UCC building name row

Pepe LeFrits

Mods, apologies if this isn't the right place for this, but this is a topic I've seen come up a lot in here before and personally I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of some in here.

http://www.thejournal.ie/ucc-james-watson-building-2826489-Jun2016/

MEMBERS OF THE governing body of University College Cork (UCC) have criticised the decision to name a campus building after Professor James Watson.

In a joint statement, Dr Angela Flynn and Dr Piaras Mac Éinrí said they want to formally disassociate themselves from the move.

“Professor Watson is an eminent scientist who was awarded the Nobel Prize in 1962, with Professor Francis Crick, for describing the double helix structure of DNA.

“However, he has been responsible for unfounded, unscientific and inaccurate statements of a racist and misogynistic nature.

“In the circumstances we do not believe that it is appropriate to honour Professor Watson by naming a building after him. Moreover, we believe that such a decision is grossly disrespectful, in particular, to women and ethnic minority members of staff and the student community.”

I feel they’re wrong to object to this. The basic argument seems to be that you can’t disassociate his scientific achievements from his personal views, but for me that’s a very problematic line of argument. He’s not being honoured for his views on race and women, he’s being honoured for his colossal (apparently, I'm not a geneticist) contribution to science. Ignoring a giant of any particular field on the grounds that their social views don’t fit into whatever is deemed acceptable at the present time seems dangerous. When I read The Merchant of Venice as a teenager, I was enraged by how anti-semitic the heroes were, but I’m not going to oppose libraries being named after Shakespeare. Surely their contribution to humanity far outweighs whatever personal flaws they have?

Sleepy

Yup, I'd agree.

If we're to take this line we shouldn't be naming anything after Padraig Pearse in this country since he was a nasty killer and was apparently quite the sexist too.

tritium

I think if we take that view there are very few historical figures who dont have baggage that would disqualify them. That statement would apply by the way to the hero's of of both the left and the right.

VinLieger

The ridiculous safe space and triggering stuff thats been plaguing US campuseshas unfortunately made it to our shores. Expect internal investigations into "controversial" courses and subjects in the next few years

iptba

VinLieger wrote: »

The ridiculous safe space and triggering stuff thats been plaguing US campuseshas unfortunately made it to our shores. Expect internal investigations into "controversial" courses and subjects in the next few years

Anyone know anything about this? Just curious.

TCD has it’s own safe space area for certain favoured minorities and genders.

from:
http://www.thejournal.ie/profile/509617/the-twitter-user-comment-ucc-student-5178364/

Water John

I suggest the students of UCC use their bright minds and come up with an alternative name for said building.

NI24

This has nothing to do with safe spaces and triggering (but nice try guys). People have protested against this kind of stuff for decades. There's a ski mountain near my hometown that, before WWII, was named after a high ranking Nazi officer (he helped to scout the area and create the ski lodge). Once the US got involved in the war it was promptly stripped of its name and to this day remains nameless. I could go on with several other examples but that might relieve some people of the outrage they need to feel when these things happen.

Wibbs

NI24 wrote: »

This has nothing to do with safe spaces and triggering (but nice try guys).

From the horses mouth tweet of the organisers "Protesting speech which makes our UCC feel like a less safe space". Nice try yourself.

imitation

Wibbs wrote: »

From the horses mouth tweet of the organisers "Protesting speech which makes our UCC feel like a less safe space". Nice try yourself.

Its a fairly loose association that people were very happy to jump on though. They aren't referring to an actual safe space room or meeting time.

I don't get the excessive bile about safe spaces. Yes there were people who were completely over the top, going on about entitlement and CIS etc etc, but the core idea is a good one. We like to think we are an open tolerant society but the truth of it is that is if somebody is different they can basically expect to get random comments and insults in public. Having some place to relax doesnt seem like an awful thing to me, as long as it doesnt turn into some kind of us vs them mentality. Its a pity its needed and hopefully things will change.

Potatoeman

You can honor someone for their contribution to certain things, you don't have to agree with everything they did or stood for.

By the same logic we are seeing here you could block someone like Nelson Mandela that actually killed people when being honoured for peace.

The J Stands for Jay

NI24 wrote: »

This has nothing to do with safe spaces and triggering (but nice try guys). People have protested against this kind of stuff for decades. There's a ski mountain near my hometown that, before WWII, was named after a high ranking Nazi officer (he helped to scout the area and create the ski lodge). Once the US got involved in the war it was promptly stripped of its name and to this day remains nameless. I could go on with several other examples but that might relieve some people of the outrage they need to feel when these things happen.

Do you have any more examples? Sounds interesting.

AnonoBoy

McGaggs wrote: »

Do you have any more examples? Sounds interesting.

This is obviously an extreme example (I'm not suggesting this scientist dude is anything like Saville) but there's been of things renamed etc. in Britian:

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20165466

NI24

McGaggs wrote: »

Do you have any more examples? Sounds interesting.

Banning of the swastika in several countries. They just took down the confederate flag from a courthouse I believe. It's a pity there associated with such bad history, they're pretty cool looking logos/insignias.

The J Stands for Jay

NI24 wrote: »

Banning of the swastika in several countries. They just took down the confederate flag from a courthouse I believe. It's a pity there associated with such bad history, they're pretty cool looking logos/insignias.

It is a bit jarring seeing swastikas on shrines predating the Nazi party.

NI24

McGaggs wrote: »

It is a bit jarring seeing swastikas on shrines predating the Nazi party.

What???

NI24

Potatoeman wrote: »

You can honor someone for their contribution to certain things, you don't have to agree with everything they did or stood for.

By the same logic we are seeing here you could block someone like Nelson Mandela that actually killed people when being honoured for peace.

Nelson Mandela is considered by many to be the biggest hypocrite that ever lived. I can see why.

NI24

imitation wrote: »

Its a fairly loose association that people were very happy to jump on though. They aren't referring to an actual safe space room or meeting time.

Pretty much. It's nothing more than a stick for ignorant right wing losers to beat things to death with.

Having said this, I see no issue with not naming something after a jerk like the guy in the article, but I do think it's stupid to rename or change something subsequent to finding out about a guy's history.

The J Stands for Jay

NI24 wrote: »

What???

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

I've seen them in Vietnam, on what looked like tombs or gravestones.

The J Stands for Jay

NI24 wrote: »

What???

You'll love this one: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika_Laundry

NI24

I misread your post McGaggs. To me those examples just seem like petty vandalism with a dash of shock value (using swastikas). My point was that the idea that this comes from "safe spaces" and "trigger warnings" is typical right wing paranoia. This kind of stuff has been going on for a long time and in the case of my example, only serves to bring attention to the fact that a popular ski mountain was found and named after a Nazi. They should have just let it be and most people would have never known.

FortySeven

It's one thing to strip a name due to being a serial child molestor or a Nazi war criminal that murdered.

This man was pro choice and was quoted out of context. He offered an opinion on Africa that has neither been proven or disproven.

It's a little different. If they ever get spaces that are supposedly safe on campuses here I will be going there to wage a campaign of fear. Out of principle.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Sleepy wrote: »

Yup, I'd agree.

If we're to take this line we shouldn't be naming anything after Padraig Pearse in this country since he was a nasty killer and was apparently quite the sexist too.

There's certain other things alleged about Pearse that I hope to god aren't true.

glued

Unfortunately our universities are full of people like this. All you have to do is look at the twitter accounts of those supporting the motion to realise that they're nothing but attention seekers.