Where the Irish enslaved during the 17th century?

JulesMcCzek

Hi all,

I know there already are some threads dealing with similar questions, but I haven't found one that gives me the answers I need - I apologise in case I shouldn't have opened a new thread on this topic.
I am currently working on a presentation on the subject of whether the Irish were enslaved in the English Colonies during Cromwell's rule or not. What I've found out so far is that while many historians state that they were indentured servants and not slaves, there was this massive outcry, mainly on social media, that the Irish were slaves and that historians just deny this. There doesn't seem to be just one true standpoint.
Since I don't live in Ireland, I would really like to know what Irish people think about this topic. Do you see the Irish people shipped to the Carribbean as indentured servants, or do you think they were enslaved just like African people and maybe had to endure even worse treatment because of their religion? Is this topic something that most Irish people know about and discuss?
It would be really great if you could tell me your perspective on this historical topic.
Thank you in advance and all the best from Austria!

CrabRevolution

I've done no specific research into the topic, but the first time I ever heard the idea that Irish people were enslaved was hearing it from Americans online. The fact these Americans were referencing it in a way that suggested they were trying to downplay slavery of black people made me take it with a pinch of salt.

Through school and my own reading, I've seen a lot of references the various massacres, wars, penal laws, confiscations, plantations and the likes that our British neighbours have imparted upon us over the years, but I'd never heard slavery mentioned until recently.

Just my opinion by the way. Maybe i've just managed to be incredibly ignorant and it has passed me by.

dubhthach

During the Cromwellian period you had forced "Indentured Servitude" of over 10k people (figures of 10-15k), these were treated as indentured servants and not as Chattel Slaves in the Caribbean (eg. x number of years bonded labour expected etc.), with restoration of Charles II there was a pardon.

https://medium.com/@Limerick1914/a-review-of-the-numbers-in-the-irish-slaves-meme-1857988fd93c#.tgrk1ydji

The whole "Irish Slavery" meme in the US seems like it uses this as basic keystone and than (a) grossly inflates numbers (b) equates it to slavery of African-Americans. The only reason I can think why is to downplay the effects that Slavery had on African-Americans.

Given Cromwell's "boogie-man" reputation in Irish folk memory (even to this day), it's not surprising that some of the "popular histories" of 19th century in particular like to shall we say "embellish" his actions. Of course it should be stated that the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland was probably the bloodiest event to happen in Ireland in last 500 years. To put it in an Austrian context it's basically the equivalent to the "30 year war" when it came to destruction and loss of population (percentage wise)

Manach

Given the at times flexible definition of what has been considered slavery, there would have been numerous occasions when Irish could have fallen into this category. Offhand, the numerous Mediterranean slavers that launched raids in the British isles during this period might also be considered.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Arsemageddon

Watching the football, so I'm too for a proper post. Here's an article on indentured servants in the Caribbean from History Ireland.

http://www.historyireland.com/early-modern-history-1500-1700/shipped-for-the-barbadoes-cromwell-and-irish-migration-to-the-caribbean/

robp

Liam Hogan and other have pushed that the idea that Irish were never enslaved, stories of Irish slaves are based indentured servants rather than chattel slaves like Africans were and thus can t be considered slaves. It seems to be driven by indignation that the history of non-Africans can be compared to the history of people with African ancestry. Liam Hogan talks about how these ideas are fuel to white nationalists and fascists trying to down play the oppression of blacks. However, to my mind it is a pretty absurd semantic argument, even if there was vast numbers of white nationalists and fascists trying to rewrite history (which of course there isn't). The reality is, many of the Irish who ended up in plantations in the Caribbean did not volunteer to go. Yes, the extent of Irish slavery is sometimes hugely overstated but that doesn't mean that it is a myth. Nearly every ethnicity has stories that exaggerates persecution of their people. Slavery is something that all races have suffered under at some point in history and its bizarre to reduce all down to race.

Balmed Out

Personally I wouldn't equate an indentured servant to a slave as you always have the expectation of eventual freedom. That said I would imagine if you owned a slave and an indentured servant the slave who is a long term investment might actually be treated better.