Microlight missing from Derry Airport

The King of Dalriada

News reports this morning of a microlight missing enroute from Eglinton / Derry to Scotland.

Anyone know anymore info?

dutopia

Are microlights permitted to fly over bodies of water like that? I wouldn't have thought so.

logie101

dutopia wrote: »

Are microlights permitted to fly over bodies of water like that? I wouldn't have thought so.

Yes of course they are! Why wouldn't a microlight be able to fly over a body of water. The aircraft isn't aware it is over water...

martinsvi

dutopia wrote: »

Are microlights permitted to fly over bodies of water like that? I wouldn't have thought so.

as long as you have ground in sight you can. Shortest crossing between NI and Scotland works out as 12NM which on a good day would give you land in sight at all times.. Today, however is not a good day, in fact last week hasn't been very good for VFR at all. Visibility was down to 3000 meters this morning in Belfast with mist/haze.. Minimum vis for VFR is 5km

Sky King

martinsvi wrote: »

as long as you have ground in sight you can. Shortest crossing between NI and Scotland works out as 12NM which on a good day would give you land in sight at all times.. Today, however is not a good day, in fact last week hasn't been very good for VFR at all. Visibility was down to 3000 meters this morning in Belfast with mist/haze.. Minimum vis for VFR is 5km

martinsvi

Sky King wrote: »

which part is confusing you? Microlights are regulated under national laws unlike group A aircraft that fall under harmonized EASA rules, thus rules may vary from country to country. In Ireland NMAI website says you have to keep ground in sight at all times. Maybe in UK/NI it's different, I don't know, and to be honest, it doesn't change my point about the poor visibility.

EDIT: It turns out it happened yesterday - http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-36496509

Can't say the visibility was much better yesterday, but I guess technically it was legal:

EGAA 091020Z 15006KT 6000 SCT007 BKN011 17/15 Q1021
EGAA 091050Z 14007KT 110V190 5000 HZ BKN009 18/15 Q1021
EGAA 091120Z 14007KT 110V170 5000 HZ BKN009 18/16 Q1020
EGAA 091150Z 14007KT 100V180 5000 HZ BKN011 19/16 Q1020
EGAA 091220Z 14007KT 4500 HZ SCT010 BKN015 19/16 Q1020
EGAA 091250Z 13007KT 080V180 5000 HZ BKN011 19/16 Q1020
EGAA 091320Z 13007KT 090V160 5000 HZ SCT012 20/16 Q1019
EGAA 091350Z 14006KT 080V180 6000 SCT014 SCT019 20/16 Q1019
EGAA 091420Z 14006KT 090V180 8000 SCT017 BKN024 20/16 Q1019
EGAA 091450Z 12005KT 080V180 8000 SCT019 BKN024 21/16 Q1018

Sky King

You have to keep the ground in sight (i.e. the surface of the earth), not that you have to keep dry land in sight.

endacl

Sky King wrote: »

You have to keep the ground in sight (i.e. the surface of the earth), not that you have to keep dry land in sight.

Keep the surface of the earth in sight? Technically, in that case, the first flight in history that would have been illegal in a microlight would have been Apollo 11.

Sky King

endacl wrote: »

Keep the surface of the earth in sight? Technically, in that case, the first flight in history that would have been illegal in a microlight would have been Apollo 11.

From the NMAI website, a microlight:

– Cannot fly at night and must be in sight of the ground at all times.

In this case the ground means the surface, as distinct from dry land as alluded to earlier.

martinsvi

Sky King wrote: »

You have to keep the ground in sight (i.e. the surface of the earth), not that you have to keep dry land in sight.

my understanding of the rule is that since microlights typically are not equipped with any sophisticated and more importantly - certified navigation aids, your only way of navigating would be reading charts and making sure that stuff below you matches your expectation and plotted position on the chart (I know Ipads have maps, authorities typically don't want to hear about them and rightly so). What good is deep blue sea if it has no features?

Sky King

Here are the UK VFR conditions FYI:

Uncontrolled airspace (class F
& G)

At or below 3,000 ft:

5 km flight visibility, clear of cloud and in sight of the surface or, for an aircraft, other than a helicopter, operating at 140 kt or less:
1,500 m flight visibility, clear of cloud and in sight of the
surface

Hopefully this helps with your understanding.

martinsvi

Sky King wrote: »

Here are the UK VFR conditions FYI:


Hopefully this helps with your understanding.

you're mixing up apples and oranges here. General VFR rules have nothing to do with any specific limitations that microlights may or may not have.

Also when talking about ground please bear in mind two very commonly used acronyms in aviation - AGL and ASL, - ground level is very different thing from sea level, as you probably know, therefore one can deduct that ground is not the same as sea (I'm sure sailors would agree).

Surface however can be both but NMAI purposely use word ground and not surface in this context.


Hope that helps your confusion, can we get back on the topic?

Sky King

martinsvi wrote: »

Hope that helps your confusion, can we get back on the topic?

The topic is whether microlights are permitted to fly over large bodies of water.

You claim that they can't and you have cited loads of rules and acronyms of varying degrees of relevance which have highly impressive levels of verisimilitude it has to be said, however I am interested to know where exactly the rules say that Microlights must stay in sight of dry land, which you claim in your post above.

Bill G

martinsvi wrote: »

my understanding of the rule is that since microlights typically are not equipped with any sophisticated and more importantly - certified navigation aids, your only way of navigating would be reading charts and making sure that stuff below you matches your expectation and plotted position on the chart (I know Ipads have maps, authorities typically don't want to hear about them and rightly so). What good is deep blue sea if it has no features?

I'm not aware of any specific limitations (in either the UK or Ireland) for microlights other than licensing.

irishgrover

Sky King wrote: »

The topic is whether microlights are permitted to fly over large bodies of water.

Not being smart but is the topic not the missing aircraft as opposed to adherence or otherwise of regulations?

dutopia

logie101 wrote: »

dutopia wrote: »

Are microlights permitted to fly over bodies of water like that? I wouldn't have thought so.

Yes of course they are! Why wouldn't a microlight be able to fly over a body of water. The aircraft isn't aware it is over water...

Smart arse reply. Obviously I'm talking about from a regulations point of view. As another poster has stated 'as long as you have ground in sight', so that is why I wondered if a channel crossing would be allowed. It seems like the channel is short enough to keep it in sight on a clear day so it would be permitted.

Sky King

irishgrover wrote: »

Not being smart but is the topic not the missing aircraft as opposed to adherence or otherwise of regulations?

I accept your point irishgrover. Although perhaps one could argue that if an aircraft is missing over a large body of water, whether or not it was legally permitted to be there is a very relevant aspect of the discussion.

Furthermore, dutopia's question has relevance and has (in my opinion) still not been answered satisfactorily.

I was just seeking clarification for myself and others, to establish if I myself was mistaken in my understanding of the rules in this regard, or if the information given by martinsvi was indeed false and misleading and presented as though it was coming from an expert.

My own understanding is that there is no regulatory limitation to the distance one can fly from land over water. I am open to correction on this and will amend my opinion if presented with evidence that I am wrong.

martinsvi

Sky King wrote: »

The topic is whether microlights are permitted to fly over large bodies of water.

You claim that they can't and you have cited loads of rules and acronyms of varying degrees of relevance which have highly impressive levels of verisimilitude it has to be said, however I am interested to know where exactly the rules say that Microlights must stay in sight of dry land, which you claim in your post above.

I thought I was perfectly clear when I made my reference to NMAI? I specifically said I DON'T know what rules or regulations may or may not exist in UK! the argument from your part was never about the regulation but definition of ground and how is it different from surface. The way you change your tactics and suggest I claimed things I never did kind of tells me you're just arguing here for the sake of arguing?

Sky King wrote: »

I was just seeking clarification for myself and others, to establish if I myself was mistaken in my understanding of the rules in this regard, or if the information given by martinsvi was indeed false and misleading and presented as though it was coming from an expert.

Again, I only quoted NMAI, if you have a problem with that information, you can talk to them. If you're going to continue arguing about ground vs surface I suggest you to save your time

The King of Dalriada

I wish I hadn't started the topic now.

Sky King

I thought I was perfectly clear when I made my reference to NMAI? I specifically
said I DON'T know what rules or regulations may or may not exist in UK!

The NMAI is simply a representative organisation for microlight pilots and enthusiasts and its does not make the Aviation rules in Ireland. This is the job of the Irish Aviation Authority.

the argument from your part was never about the regulation but definition of
ground and how is it different from surface

Nope. My argument was the definition of ground as distinct from dry land. You are (misleadingly in my opinion) claiming that a microlight must be in sight of dry land when flying over water.. I am attempting to clarify whether you are correct in this regard. I believe that you are wrong as I have no knowledge of such a rule and I have yet to see you provide any evidence that you are right.

What you have provided are extensive esoteric references in the form of acronyms and met data to present yourself as someone who knows what they are talking about. But it seems that you don't.

The way you change your tactics and suggest I claimed things I never did kind of
tells me you're just arguing here for the sake of arguing?

I am asking you to back up your claims that in order to comply with Irish Aviation regulations, a microlight must be in sight of dry land.
if you can provide this evidence I will accept that I am wrong, however it goes against my own understanding currently and I have not yet seen evidence that I should amend this.

jimbis

And back to the original topic, debris has been found off the coast of Antrim.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-36501284

2 persons on board when it left yesterday.

Would there be any sort of floatation devices kept on board these or just a life jacket?

martinsvi

jimbis wrote: »

And back to the original topic, debris has been found off the coast of Antrim.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-36501284

2 persons on board when it left yesterday.

Would there be any sort of floatation devices kept on board these or just a life jacket?

when I'm crossing seas in a single engine aircraft and the journey takes me away from a gliding distance, the jacket is on from before I enter the aircraft and the PLB is attached to it. There's no point in having it lying somewhere on the back seat, if the donkey in front dies, there's not enough room/time to put it on and the impact will probably displace it anyway

martinsvi

Sky King wrote: »

You are (misleadingly in my opinion) claiming that a microlight must be in sight of dry land when flying over water.. I am attempting to clarify whether you are correct in this regard. I believe that you are wrong as I have no knowledge of such a rule and I have yet to see you provide any evidence that you are right.

I gave you the source of my information - how you interpret the information is none of my business. Don't shoot the messenger, if there's a problem with NMAI views or guidelines, talk to them!

I don't find your way of arguing neither productive or legitimate. If you are a pilot who's genuinely concerned about the legitimacy of your flying, the very first thing you should do is get in touch with IAA and get an official response.

I'm a PPL(A) pilot on my way to (f)ATPL, microlight flying, however fun and cheap it might be, does not concern me. I only shared what I've read and I seriously don't need some armchair experts challenging my every word.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, microlights are EASA Annex II aircraft that require a national permit to fly. This permit then should in essence lay out do's and don'ts of operation, such as flying in foreign territory, operating over towns, restrictions on commercial operations and so on. I only have EASA CofA/ARC at hand for a group A aircraft so I can't verify this. But if you are genuinely concerned, go find out.. If you're just arguing for the sake of an argument, bugger off!

Sky King

A forum member asked if a microlight is allowed to fly over a large body of water to which you replied

as long as you have ground in sight you can. Shortest crossing between NI and Scotland works out as 12NM which on a good day would give you land in sight at all times..

In my opinion, you are giving misleading information regarding microlight flying on an internet forum.

I am not concerned about my own flying as you suggested, but I do have concerns when people position themselves as experts and present what I consider to be inaccurate information as fact.

As I have said, I am fully open to correction on my own assertions, and if you can show me evidence that you are right and I am wrong, I will accept that.

I'm a PPL(A) pilot on my way to (f)ATPL, microlight flying, however fun and cheap it might be, does not concern me.

Then why are you giving advice on the rules of flying microlight aircraft?

martinsvi

Sky King wrote: »

A forum member asked if a microlight is allowed to fly over a large body of water to which you replied



In my opinion, you are giving misleading information regarding microlight flying on an internet forum.

I am not concerned about my own flying as you suggested, but I do have concerns when people position themselves as experts and present what I consider to be inaccurate information as fact.

As I have said, I am fully open to correction on my own assertions, and if you can show me evidence that you are right and I am wrong, I will accept that.



Then why are you giving advice on the rules of flying microlight aircraft?

What's your problem? I never posed as an expert, merely shared an information that's publicly available. This is an open forum where people are allowed to discuss topics and share their findings, knowledge, experiences etc.

I have been more than open about my source of information, interpretation, experience and qualifications.. all you've done is thrown feces without even bothering to explain yourself, your point of view and your experience? Seriously pal, back off! You haven't come across as someone who actually understands regulations or definitions so far

arubex

Corresponding debris has now been found on the sea off the eastern Antrim coast.

Apparently a distress call was made and relayed, so it wasn't a case of CFIT in the current conditions of fog and haze. Strange that the accompanying aircraft carried on to Scotland, though, unless they had lost contact earlier in the flight.

Pat Dunne

Sky King wrote: »

A forum member asked if a microlight is allowed to fly over a large body of water to which you replied



In my opinion, you are giving misleading information regarding microlight flying on an internet forum.

I am not concerned about my own flying as you suggested, but I do have concerns when people position themselves as experts and present what I consider to be inaccurate information as fact.

As I have said, I am fully open to correction on my own assertions, and if you can show me evidence that you are right and I am wrong, I will accept that.



Then why are you giving advice on the rules of flying microlight aircraft?

As you previously promoted a microlight club in the midlands perhaps you should seek a proper definition there.

Sky King wrote: »

What kind of flying are you after?

Check out www.midlandmicrolightcentre.com for microlight action in Laois.

Condolences to all concerned. R.I.P to the Pilot and Passenger.

arubex

Debris identified as a C42 from Yorkshire. Pilot and passenger presumed perished but search continues.

CINCLANTFLT

arubex wrote: »

Debris identified as a C42 from Yorkshire. Pilot and passenger presumed perished but search continues.

Thank you for getting us back on topic... RIP to all I guess at this stage...

martinsvi

as much as I hate derailing the thread again, I felt like it is necessary in the interest of truth and general knowledge to put the "microlights over water" debate at rest, so that whoever researches this in the future would not be misinformed.

I got in contact with NMAI and they concluded that the wording on their website needs to be updated. Microlights (most of them anyway) can fly over water (subject to VFR conditions of course) and not in sight of land.

That doesn't mean there are no restrictions (or differences to group A) on Microlights - for those interested, you can find them in AN sections P17, P21, P24, A16B, A19. Further restrictions can be attached to pilot's license and aircraft's flight permit

Gaoth Laidir

They took off at 11:46 BST (10:46Z). Eglington's METARs show around 7000 m vis, fog in the vicinity (most likely over the sea) and scattered low cloud, so not conducive to a cross-channel VFR flight imo.

The Terra MODIS satellite image from 1 hour later shows a gradual clearance in the general area (best to view the 3-6-7 image).

https://lance.modaps.eosdis.nasa.gov/imagery/subsets/?project=&subset=Europe_2_01&date=06%2F09%2F2016

●METAR EGAE 091150Z 04004KT 9000 FEW014 SCT025 21/18 Q1019=
●METAR EGAE 091120Z 03004KT 360V080 7000 VCFG FEW008 SCT023
19/18 Q1019=
●METAR EGAE 091050Z 03004KT 350V070 7000 VCFG FEW004 SCT008
BKN023 18/17 Q1019=
●METAR EGAE 091020Z 05004KT 4500 VCFG FEW004 SCT008 18/17
Q1019=
●METAR EGAE 090950Z 04003KT 3500 VCFG SCT004 BKN006 17/17 Q1020=
●METAR EGAE 090920Z VRB03KT 3500 VCFG OVC003 16/16 Q1020=
●METAR EGAE 090850Z 34003KT 1100 R26/1600 VCFG BKN002 OVC003
16/16 Q1020=
●METAR EGAE 090820Z 34003KT 0900 R26/1600 FG BKN002 OVC003
15/15 Q1020=