Building through direct labour

blindside88

Hi Guys,

This is a fairly broad question and I'm just looking for a bit of a steer if possible. Just for a bit of background, my wife and I got planning permission to build our 3 bed bungalow 2 years ago but the regs had just changed and it was looking extremely difficult to self build if you weren't in a trade yourself. We ended up buying a house and it is my understanding that the legislation has changed again to allow you to opt out of some of the changes for one off self builds.

We are now considering building in possibly in 3 to 4 years once we have put a bit more back into savings (we'll need to extend the planning). My question is, is it possible/plausible to self build without a background in a trade, we have a lot of family members and friends in trades that we would be looking at using but would need to look externally for certain trades.

Or if theres too much redtape would a contractor generally be willing to allow someone else to take over a portion of the build, for example my wife's uncle is a ground works contractor and has said that he will dig out and pour the foundations for materials costs only.

I know this is very broad but any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

Blindside

Metric Tensor

Possible: Yes
A good idea: Probably not if you want to get a high quality result.

However: You have three/four years to research and teach yourself. If you do it right it would still be a big undertaking but at least you'd have a good grounding put in.

If you decide to go self build you will be heavily reliant on the guidance of your professional(s) you employ to help you. With this in mind you need to good person/team to support you. View yourself as a project manager getting the information and details from the experts and ensuring the people you employ know and understand what they are being asked to do. Don't try to be an expert in everything yourself - be an expert at reviewing advice and deciding what is good and bad and who can tell you what is good and bad

There's a LOT of cowboys out there and self-builders by their nature are easier targets.

Calahonda52

Of course its possible, but what you will end up with will range from a dog's dinner of a job which will struggle to meet even the basic requirements of the Building Regs, to a top class A1 rated, beyond Passiv Haus standard house that will be both a joy, and very cheap, to live in.

I suggest you look around this site a bit and look at the different issues for "Self Builds", where the general theme as a direct labour self builder can be

1. I don't need professional advice: its only a house, the most expensive investment I will ever make.
2. I can get the lads I know to do it: they will know what to do and what to use.
3. No need to coordinate or plan the trades.
4. It will work out grand.
   

This approach may be evident in this quote from what you penned.
"for example my wife's uncle is a ground works contractor and has said that he will dig out and pour the foundations for materials costs only."


No consideration of the different, modern ideas about insulated foundations.

Its not rocket science, in fact it is taught at Leaving Cert level.

The first link is for details, second for Irish pricing
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Construction-Technology-Designing-Sustainable-Homes/dp/0717148343/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1463079029&sr=8-1-fkmr1&keywords=construction+technology-+trevor+hockey

https://schoolbooks365.ie/index.php?_route_=construction_technology_hickey

blindside88

Thanks for the input so far lads. In relation to using a contractor, what you be your thinking on asked him to use one or 2 of your trades people. Also what would be your thinking on hiring a project manager rather than using a contractor to allow me to choose my own tradesmen. By the way I'm a financial advisor so would be heavily reliant on expert advice when completing the build

Metric Tensor

If you are thinking of a direct labour you will be the project manager.

To be honest most of the people out there who make the best project managers are the contractors doing this sort of work.

For some reason the area of independent "Project Manager" for small domestic builds seems to be a field that attracts a higher than normal proportion of cowboys and chancers. So if you are thinking of going this route make sure you do a LOT of background checking on the proposed project manager's experience and previous jobs.*

With regards to asking a contractor to let you pick tradesmen - this is done quite regularly but the one proviso is that it gives you less scope to chase the contractor for defects and snags. He won't want to be held responsible for the work of your "nominated subcontractor" and if he doesn't work with them regularly won't have much power over them to fix defects anyway. Further this friend or family member of yours could then be a scapegoat for a whole host of things that might or might not be there fault. This is just a warning - like I said - it does happen regularly and most people make it work, but it can go wrong.


* Edit to clarify: This is based solely on my own experience, which is anecdotal, and I accept that there are very good ones out there too.

BryanF

op
as a financial controller, do you favour simple contract arrangements, with one point of contact and liability

Or
Do you favour multiple contracts, with compromised guarantees, no single point of responsibility etc

+ do you count your own time/hours in this as a project manager , say 1200hrs over the build duration?

blindside88

Metric Tensor wrote: »

If you are thinking of a direct labour you will be the project manager.

To be honest most of the people out there who make the best project managers are the contractors doing this sort of work.

For some reason the area of independent "Project Manager" for small domestic builds seems to be a field that attracts a higher than normal proportion of cowboys and chancers. So if you are thinking of going this route make sure you do a LOT of background checking on the proposed project manager's experience and previous jobs.*

With regards to asking a contractor to let you pick tradesmen - this is done quite regularly but the one proviso is that it gives you less scope to chase the contractor for defects and snags. He won't want to be held responsible for the work of your "nominated subcontractor" and if he doesn't work with them regularly won't have much power over them to fix defects anyway. Further this friend or family member of yours could then be a scapegoat for a whole host of things that might or might not be there fault. This is just a warning - like I said - it does happen regularly and most people make it work, but it can go wrong.


* Edit to clarify: This is based solely on my own experience, which is anecdotal, and I accept that there are very good ones out there too.

Thanks, the assignment of blame is something I would worry about alright as I know from anecdotal evidence that no one wants to accept the blame on their end of the build. This is something I would have to take seriously into account.

blindside88

BryanF wrote: »

op
as a financial controller, do you favour simple contract arrangements, with one point of contact and liability

Or
Do you favour multiple contracts, with compromised guarantees, no single point of responsibility etc

+ do you count your own time/hours in this as a project manager , say 1200hrs over the build duration?

One point of contact is obviously much easier to deal with but what I'm trying to weigh it up against is the potential cost saving of managing multiple contacts. The cost saving would obviously come with more headaches and an inevitable time delay as I wouldn't be on site on a day to do basis however I work within 15 miles of the site. There is my time cost to take into account but this is something I would be willing to sacrifice if I could have a similar level of finish for a lesser euro cost. Ideally I would go with a contractor if I could have a few tradesmen that I know work on it, they have done impeccable work for me and family in the past but as above there is always the chance of people passing the book if there isn't a single person (contractor) taking responsibility for the lot.

This may be a "how long is a piece of string" question but typically what percentage of the overall build cost does a contractor take as there cut? This would allow me to weigh the arguments up much better.

Thanks again

Metric Tensor

Most self builds I've seen have gone well over budget because if multiple "good ideas" and "it'll be worth it in the long run" choices during the build process.

I have no direct evidence of saving levels - though I suspect unless there is substantial family involvement or personal expertise they might not be as much as advertised!

blindside88

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Most self builds I've seen have gone well over budget because if multiple "good ideas" and "it'll be worth it in the long run" choices during the build process.

I have no direct evidence of saving levels - though I suspect unless there is substantial family involvement or personal expertise they might not be as much as advertised!

I noticed that even when we were pricing the original build, every contractor had something different that we should change whether it be foam insulation over bead or make the house passive rather than going air to water etc

Metric Tensor

That's why you need to employ an building professional. To help you separate the what from the chaff.

blindside88

Metric Tensor wrote: »

That's why you need to employ an building professional. To help you separate the what from the chaff.

By this do you mean any engineer? Because I've been getting the above from contractors

Metric Tensor

Yup - an appropriately qualified and experienced Engineer, Architect of Technician to give you guidance in making up your mind.

There's a lot of well intentioned people giving bad advice out there and there's also a few less well intentioned people happy to make a quick buck if they can sell you something you don't need. You need support in deciding what's right for your house and what isn't. A building professional (i.e. an Engineer, Architect, Technician) is the appropriate person to give this advice. They will help you formulate an appropriate specification for your house. A builder will help too but it's not his speciality.


Edit: Yes - by "Building Professional" I meant a service professional who specialises in the design, detailing and specification of domestic projects. I didn't mean a "Professional Builder" - I see the possible confusion now

blindside88

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Yup - an appropriately qualified and experienced Engineer, Architect of Technician to give you guidance in making up your mind.

There's a lot of well intentioned people giving bad advice out there and there's also a few less well intentioned people happy to make a quick buck if they can sell you something you don't need. You need support in deciding what's right for your house and what isn't. A building professional (i.e. an Engineer, Architect, Technician) is the appropriate person to give this advice. They will help you formulate an appropriate specification for your house. A builder will help too but it's not his speciality.

Great, thanks for that. Much appreciated

Metric Tensor

Sorry - I was half way through typing my edit when your next post came up!