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Ricochet vs Osprey Thread

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  • Registered Users Posts: 39,628 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    So anyone who knows me knows I'm a huge Dragon Gate fan and, as hard as it can be at times, get up to date with each show. I'm a huge huge huge fan of junior heavyweights and am often amazed at the things these guys can do. What I love, in particular, is that even know it is fast paced and "full of flips" (Side note, I hate that term), the guys actually sell every move. When they get a burst of energy they don't forget everything that happened before hand and will sell the leg, breathe heavily and all that stuff that makes the match feel real and full of impact.

    This brings us to the Will and Rich matchup. It is a huge testament to the athletic ability of both men, and honestly normally I enjoy both of these guys matches. But the fact that there was no selling during the contest and it felt like spot after spot after spot, it just sucked out the enjoyment I had of the match. I wasn't invested in either guy, and I just didn't care who won. That is an issue. With wrestling I'm supposed to care who wins, even if I'm a fan of both guys. Tell me a story, that's what makes wrestling great.

    And before I'm asked, of course all matches are spots and transitions into spots; however, it's hidden and designed to not come across a spot set ups. Rather it all seems natural and decided on the spot.
    This is what makes the likes of Akira Tozawa, Kota Ibushi, BxB Hulk, Cima so so good to watch.

    I agree.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,868 ✭✭✭Andersonisgod


    So anyone who knows me knows I'm a huge Dragon Gate fan and, as hard as it can be at times, get up to date with each show. I'm a huge huge huge fan of junior heavyweights and am often amazed at the things these guys can do. What I love, in particular, is that even know it is fast paced and "full of flips" (Side note, I hate that term), the guys actually sell every move. When they get a burst of energy they don't forget everything that happened before hand and will sell the leg, breathe heavily and all that stuff that makes the match feel real and full of impact.

    This brings us to the Will and Rich matchup. It is a huge testament to the athletic ability of both men, and honestly normally I enjoy both of these guys matches. But the fact that there was no selling during the contest and it felt like spot after spot after spot, it just sucked out the enjoyment I had of the match. I wasn't invested in either guy, and I just didn't care who won. That is an issue. With wrestling I'm supposed to care who wins, even if I'm a fan of both guys. Tell me a story, that's what makes wrestling great.

    And before I'm asked, of course all matches are spots and transitions into spots; however, it's hidden and designed to not come across a spot set ups. Rather it all seems natural and decided on the spot. This is what makes the likes of Akira Tozawa, Kota Ibushi, BxB Hulk, Cima so so good to watch.

    The match has drawn a tonne of praise from people within the industry, Austin and Jericho even comparing it to Tiger Mask vs Dynamite Kids, so......

    The selling criticism is nothing but nitpicking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,753 ✭✭✭✭beakerjoe


    Why are people saying there was no selling. Sure they no sold a lot of moves, but they sold a lot of moves also.

    Anyway, each to their own, I enjoyed it. Not my fav match of all time and it had its flaws, but it highly entertained me


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,469 ✭✭✭LeeJM


    The match has drawn a tonne of praise from people within the industry, Austin and Jericho even comparing it to Tiger Mask vs Dynamite Kids, so......

    The selling criticism is nothing but nitpicking.

    Austin and Jericho?! My god why wasnt this mentioned earlier. Well surely now the whole world of wrestling fans will come to see things the way you do, what with AUSTIN and JERICHO giving it praise. Anyone who dislikes the match will now surely see the error of their opinions. I mean my god AUSTIN and JERICHO gave it praise so......

    And before AIG accuses me of following him around or some such because I disagree with his almighty opinion and he tells us that he watches 1000's of matches every week, I wanna say I enjoyed the match for what it was. But the fact that it gets praise some guys within the industry means fcuk all to me. My opinion is my opinion, not Austins or Jerichos or Cornettes. Lads if you like, great, if you dislike it, great. But just form the opinion for yourself, not because some name says you should like it/dislike it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,868 ✭✭✭Andersonisgod


    LeeJM wrote: »
    Austin and Jericho?! My god why wasnt this mentioned earlier. Well surely now the whole world of wrestling fans will come to see things the way you do, what with AUSTIN and JERICHO giving it praise. Anyone who dislikes the match will now surely see the error of their opinions. I mean my god AUSTIN and JERICHO gave it praise so......

    And before AIG accuses me of following him around or some such because I disagree with his almighty opinion and he tells us that he watches 1000's of matches every week, I wanna say I enjoyed the match for what it was. But the fact that it gets praise some guys within the industry means fcuk all to me. My opinion is my opinion, not Austins or Jerichos or Cornettes. Lads if you like, great, if you dislike it, great. But just form the opinion for yourself, not because some name says you should like it/dislike it.

    Yes, Austin and Jericho, two well respected members of the Wrestling industry who have experience of working in Japan. Chances are, I'll usually value their opinion over the opinion of LeeJM, no matter how many bold tags he uses. High praise to compare it to Tiger Mask vs Dynamite Kid was actually my point.

    I do watch a lot of wrestling, thank you for noticing. My grievance isn't with people who dislike the match, it's with people who dislike the match for silly reasons.


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,013 Mod ✭✭✭✭jaykhunter


    Moved this into it's own thread.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,491 ✭✭✭thebostoncrab


    The match has drawn a tonne of praise from people within the industry, Austin and Jericho even comparing it to Tiger Mask vs Dynamite Kids, so......

    The selling criticism is nothing but nitpicking.

    Great, a bunch of people in the industry liked it, good for them and I'm glad they got something out of it. That doesn't make me suddenly enjoy the match. Pointing out my main issues with the match and how it affected my personal enjoyment of it is far from not picking, seeing as my issues (selling and the lack of transistaion between spots seeming natural and flowing together) are wrestling 1 on 1 and a major part of why it's the greatest form of entertainment we have. Now, if I said I didn't like it because of a single spot, THATS nit picking and should be called out.

    If you enjoyed the match awesome, glad you did. I actually really like Will and normally I love Ricochet, but in this particular match it just felt too "this isn't real" to me and made it harder for me to get interested. I'm not going to claim the match is killing wrestling because (to be blunt) that's ****ing stupid, but this is not anywhere near the level of Tiger Mask vs Dynamite. That match told a story, both men made everything seem natural and looked like it was all unfolding before us without any rehearsing, and thus had that certain magic that made the match perfect.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,395 ✭✭✭✭Turtyturd



    And before I'm asked, of course all matches are spots and transitions into spots; however, it's hidden and designed to not come across a spot set ups. Rather it all seems natural and decided on the spot. This is what makes the likes of Akira Tozawa, Kota Ibushi, BxB Hulk, Cima so so good to watch.


    I would agree with this . Everyone knows it's pre determined and everyone knows that the guys in the ring have a set of moves that they are going to get through but when they are put together well and flow it really drags you into the match. On the other hand when you know they are deliberately setting up a spot it drags you out of the moment. Any multi person match where all but one of the guys end up at the bottom of the entrance ramp and they all help each other up and then stand there awkwardly, you know the other guy is doing a moonsault off the top rope onto them, it's ridiculous. Same when someone in a MITB match sets up a ladder and just walks away, you're immediately taken out of the moment and think 'someone's gonna use that later'. The skill of making spots not look like spots is an art form in itself.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    beakerjoe wrote: »
    Why are people saying there was no selling. Sure they no sold a lot of moves, but they sold a lot of moves also.

    Anyway, each to their own, I enjoyed it. Not my fav match of all time and it had its flaws, but it highly entertained me

    Great post. Entertained the hell out of me and that's why I watch as much as any other reason. Was surreal and matrix-like but F me if I wasn't blown away by it. Wouldn't fancy seeing it every week, and yes it was contrived but screw it, as a spectacle it was damn fun.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,180 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    Personally I think with regards to that spot they crossed the thin line between "whoa, thats awesome" and "ok, that's just a spot-fest"

    It probably comes down to the amount of counters. The second something becomes you counter me, then I counter you, then you counter me again.. but then I counter you again... is when something becomes The Matrix. But of course the cherry on the top is the stand-off to end it :pac:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 45,552 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Nice Guy


    I can see both sides of the argument on this one. I am a big fan of both guys and I think they will be big stars in the future; having said that, there were times watching this where I felt like I was watching a beat-em-up game where neither character had a life bar in use.

    Great visuals, great action, great spectacle, but a bit short on a compelling sense of jeopardy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,753 ✭✭✭✭beakerjoe


    This discussion, for most parts, is why I enjoy this site. Plenty of divided opinion respectfully discussed for most of the posts. If we all thought the same we would be talking about nothing and life would be a lot less fun. Awesome


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 689 ✭✭✭Straight Edge Punk


    The match has drawn a tonne of praise from people within the industry, Austin and Jericho even comparing it to Tiger Mask vs Dynamite Kids, so......

    The selling criticism is nothing but nitpicking.

    What about the people within the industry who criticised the match? Do they not count?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,689 ✭✭✭sky88


    Loved this match excitement from start to end.

    I can see why people hated it and i wouldn't like seeing this type of match always but this is two of the best at this kind of wrestling.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1 Waylon Mercy


    Apologies if I'm late to the discussion (and, as this is my first post, apologies if I'm neglecting any first post etiquette). I suppose the main issue with this match, and particularly the somersault sequence in the gif posted, is the difficulty in "suspending disbelief". As both wrestlers are renowned for their high-flying antics, from a kayfabe standpoint you could view this as "posturing", a game of one upmanship where each tries to outdo the other at his own game. Maybe I'm missing the crux of the argument or just over thinking it though


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭Moist Bread


    Honestly I had no problems with the selling. They sold when they could, the rest of the time it would have broken the flow of the match. I think the issue with their selling is blown out of proportion. There were a few moments where it felt a bit contrived and they over did the choreographed sequences, but by and large is was a great fast-paced match.


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