Fire regulations for restaurant ceiling

cameramonkey

Does anyone know what the regulations for a restaurant ceiling are regarding fire. I am looking at a premises that has a flat above the restaurant dining area.
The ceiling at the moment is a ordinary plasterboard ceiling with skim and it needs to be replaced.

Does anyone know what type of plasterboard I need to put up and how many minutes resistance do I need? Also is it necessary to double slab the ceiling.

Thanks in advance.

Gumbo

cameramonkey wrote: »

Does anyone know what the regulations for a restaurant ceiling are regarding fire. I am looking at a premises that has a flat above the restaurant dining area.
The ceiling at the moment is a ordinary plasterboard ceiling with skim and it needs to be replaced.

Does anyone know what type of plasterboard I need to put up and how many minutes resistance do I need? Also is it necessary to double slab the ceiling.

Thanks in advance.

You need to be careful here. You are carrying out alterations to a building that contains flats, and with an active Fire Safety Certificate.

You could argue that it is repair and renewal but you may need professional input to make that call. Generally though, you need 60 minutes fire separation between the 2, and you need to make sure the fire alarm is interconnected. Also if doing the work, and you find issues then you are liable to rectify those to ensure compliance with TGD Part B (Fire Safety) at a minimum.

cameramonkey

kceire wrote: »

You need to be careful here. You are carrying out alterations to a building that contains flats, and with an active Fire Safety Certificate.

You could argue that it is repair and renewal but you may need professional input to make that call. Generally though, you need 60 minutes fire separation between the 2, and you need to make sure the fire alarm is interconnected. Also if doing the work, and you find issues then you are liable to rectify those to ensure compliance with TGD Part B (Fire Safety) at a minimum.

Thanks for the answer. The place has no existing fire alarm or proper smoke detection system so if we move ahead with the building we will put a new system in place. You say that you would need 60 mins of fire separation would than entail
a single slab of plasterboard or would we need a double slab?

Thanks again

Gumbo

cameramonkey wrote: »

Thanks for the answer. The place has no existing fire alarm or proper smoke detection system so if we move ahead with the building we will put a new system in place. You say that you would need 60 mins of fire separation would than entail
a single slab of plasterboard or would we need a double slab?

Thanks again

You may require a Fire Safety Certificate depending on how much work is involved.

Does the existing unit have a valid Fire Safety Certificate?
Is it currently a restaurant?

With regards to the Fire Resistant build up, I wont answer that on here, and most certainly not for free on a public forum. You need professional guidance asap as it may require a lot more than just 1 slab, or even 2 slabs staggered!

As you do not know what the build up is on the otherside of the ceiling (the flats floor), then you need to ensure the 60 mins protection from your side, but don't forget you will also have structural integrity to consider, and some structural elements require 2 hours protection minimum.

You are talking about a Purpose Group 5 premises, a Place of Assembly and if something goes wrong, you will be liable and a fine would be the least of your worries.

cameramonkey

kceire wrote: »

You may require a Fire Safety Certificate depending on how much work is involved.

Does the existing unit have a valid Fire Safety Certificate?
Is it currently a restaurant?

With regards to the Fire Resistant build up, I wont answer that on here, and most certainly not for free on a public forum. You need professional guidance asap as it may require a lot more than just 1 slab, or even 2 slabs staggered!

As you do not know what the build up is on the otherside of the ceiling (the flats floor), then you need to ensure the 60 mins protection from your side, but don't forget you will also have structural integrity to consider, and some structural elements require 2 hours protection minimum.

You are talking about a Purpose Group 5 premises, a Place of Assembly and if something goes wrong, you will be liable and a fine would be the least of your worries.

Hi , thanks for all that. I am considering taking a lease on the building and if I do it will need serious upgrading. The building has been in constant use as a restaurant but looking at the state of the kitchen(filthy), the non existent fire and smoke alarms and other related store rooms( very dirty) I would say that there has been no H&S inspections for some time. The reason I was asking about the ceiling is for aesthetic purposes as I want as high a ceiling as possible and I understand your position on giving advice.

Thanks again.

Gumbo

cameramonkey wrote: »

Hi , thanks for all that. I am considering taking a lease on the building and if I do it will need serious upgrading. The building has been in constant use as a restaurant but looking at the state of the kitchen(filthy), the non existent fire and smoke alarms and other related store rooms( very dirty) I would say that there has been no H&S inspections for some time. The reason I was asking about the ceiling is for aesthetic purposes as I want as high a ceiling as possible and I understand your position on giving advice.

Thanks again.

Right well that's a bit clearer.
Once you get the lease, appoint an architect, Engineer or Fire Consultant and take their professional advice and carry out the works to their specifications.

You should be able to run with a plasterboard ceiling to keep the aesthetic appearance that you want, it just depends on what has to go in between that plasterboard and the flat above you in order to maintain the Fire Compartment.

Best of luck with the venture!

cameramonkey

kceire wrote: »

Right well that's a bit clearer.
Once you get the lease, appoint an architect, Engineer or Fire Consultant and take their professional advice and carry out the works to their specifications.

You should be able to run with a plasterboard ceiling to keep the aesthetic appearance that you want, it just depends on what has to go in between that plasterboard and the flat above you in order to maintain the Fire Compartment.

Best of luck with the venture!

Thanks again.

mfceiling

Not 100% sure but 2 layers of plasterboard provide 1hr protection (that may be on a wall that's slabbed both sides). 2 X 15mm fireline boards would "probably" give you your 1hr protection.

*please check the gypsum website for better details or speak to a professional with regards to this detail - I'm just floating this off the top of my head from previous jobs*

Gumbo

mfceiling wrote: »

Not 100% sure but 2 layers of plasterboard provide 1hr protection (that may be on a wall that's slabbed both sides). 2 X 15mm fireline boards would "probably" give you your 1hr protection.

*please check the gypsum website for better details or speak to a professional with regards to this detail - I'm just floating this off the top of my head from previous jobs*

There is a particular arrangement of the boards, staggered, and using the correct screws in the correct locations along with the thickness of the timber behind them that all make up the 60 minute rated construction.

The issue here is that there are apartments above the OP, so he cannot line both sides of the floor slab, so he has to ensure the 60 minute resistance from his side only.

Calahonda52

mfceiling wrote: »

Not 100% sure but 2 layers of plasterboard provide 1hr protection (that may be on a wall that's slabbed both sides). 2 X 15mm fireline boards would "probably" give you your 1hr protection.

*please check the gypsum website for better details or speak to a professional with regards to this detail - I'm just floating this off the top of my head from previous jobs*

When dealing with fire regs and flats etc, which is worlds apart from a beer advert, I think we need a lot better than "probably":(

BryanF

cameramonkey wrote: »

Hi , thanks for all that. I am considering taking a lease on the building and if I do it will need serious upgrading. The building has been in constant use as a restaurant but looking at the state of the kitchen(filthy), the non existent fire and smoke alarms and other related store rooms( very dirty) I would say that there has been no H&S inspections for some time. The reason I was asking about the ceiling is for aesthetic purposes as I want as high a ceiling as possible and I understand your position on giving advice.

Thanks again.

Perhaps seek a rough quote for fire safety cert, fire alarm system, cabinet for electrics, and any other fire protection works required, before you take on the lease.. There may be things to do with flat for example, that you could do with more info on. The owner may need to be involved - they share the cost?

Edit: what about organising an arch tech( or architect,engineer, or surveyor) and quantity surveyor/builder to walk the premises with you and give you a ball park cost for the big items

Dardania

Would you be leasing just the restaurant area, or the entire building (and then subletting the flat?)

cameramonkey

Dardania wrote: »

Would you be leasing just the restaurant area, or the entire building (and then subletting the flat?)

The entire building, there are sitting tenants, who will now be our tenants.

Gumbo

cameramonkey wrote: »

The entire building, there are sitting tenants, who will now be our tenants.

Whole different ball game!
Get a professional on board if you proceed.

cameramonkey

kceire wrote: »

Whole different ball game!
Get a professional on board if you proceed.

Thanks . Yes I need to make the decision on if to proceed or not. I just needed a few indicators of the problems I might have before I make such a decision.

Thanks to all for the helpful answers.

Dardania

That's a potentially awkward one -

cameramonkey wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

Would you be leasing just the restaurant area, or the entire building (and then subletting the flat?)

The entire building, there are sitting tenants, who will now be our tenants.

that's a potentially awkward one - you become a landlord, and the building owner is your landlord.

You definitely need a capable professional agent / probably architect in your corner to make sure you don't walk into too much risk

cameramonkey

Dardania wrote: »

That's a potentially awkward one -

that's a potentially awkward one - you become a landlord, and the building owner is your landlord.

You definitely need a capable professional agent / probably architect in your corner to make sure you don't walk into too much risk

This is not our first such venture . Unfortunately with the shortage of good cafe/ restaurant sites in Dublin those taking up leases have to take on a lot of the risks associated with trying to get a new business going and in dealing with upgrading the buildings and making sure all elements are compliant. In this new building we will have to completely rewire the whole building, re-plumb, new floors, new alarms, new shop from, new grease traps, ete etc,
basically we need to gut and rebuild.



We have another business that was in a very similar condition and have gone through many of the same problems a few years ago. That business is going well and we are trying to repeat the model to some extent but it is very difficult to find the right premises at a good price.

We have a good solicitor and builder (in family) and I have done many building projects myself. Basically all the risk in these cases is loaded onto the potential cafe / restaurant owner because there is a queue of potential other people waiting to get this building. The landlord can afford to drive a bargain that errs on his side. This is just the way things are at the moment but we are still very confident of our potential new venture.

Metric Tensor

What's the rest of the floor makeup cameramonkey?

Is the existing plasterboard fixed to timber joists and plywood for the apartment floor above? Or is there something different. Basically what can you see behind the existing plasterboard ceiling?

The gyproc website has some great sample details. You will need to employ a consultant to design/interpret this for you if you go ahead but the details on the site should give you a rough idea of what's possible in terms of ceilings - the next thing to worry about then is how much the whole lot will cost you. Have you a builder contact who can give you a rough idea so you know what you're getting yourself into? Don't underestimate the costs associated with the new alarm system either!

cameramonkey

Metric Tensor wrote: »

What's the rest of the floor makeup cameramonkey?

Is the existing plasterboard fixed to timber joists and plywood for the apartment floor above? Or is there something different. Basically what can you see behind the existing plasterboard ceiling?

The gyproc website has some great sample details. You will need to employ a consultant to design/interpret this for you if you go ahead but the details on the site should give you a rough idea of what's possible in terms of ceilings - the next thing to worry about then is how much the whole lot will cost you. Have you a builder contact who can give you a rough idea so you know what you're getting yourself into? Don't underestimate the costs associated with the new alarm system either!

The existing ceiling is plaster board single slab. It from the 1950's I would imagine. Its fixed to timber joists with a pine floor above and a new semi-solid-engineered board on top. I realise now that I will have to take down the existing ceiling and at least double slab when replacing.

I do know a bit about building as I used to work on sites. I also have good contacts. I know what I am getting into I hope but also realise that there are always surprises that can cost money.

I have asked an electrician to cost the job and he has a fire alarm guy that he employs for that part of the process.

Thanks again for everyones input.

mfceiling

Calahonda52 wrote: »

When dealing with fire regs and flats etc, which is worlds apart from a beer advert, I think we need a lot better than "probably":(

I know.

That's why I put the bit at the end about reading up on gypsum specs and getting the advice of a professional.